Harley "tries" to outrun cops

[C&C]

I guess my two cents is worth anybody elses, so hear goes. I've always heard you can't outrun Motorola, so why didn't the LEO radio ahead and lay back and just keep the subject in sight. Roadblock would seem to have been an option.

I admit I'm not an expert, and I wouldn't want to see the "perp" get away, but I think the LEO escalated this situation.

Okay, one more comment and this is pure speculation and conjecture. I'm thinking, after the fact now and back at the police station, the Officers involved are all standing around and telling each other how they: "sure kicked that biker's *** tonight now, didn't we" alla Bimbo and Clark in the "Hollywood Knights" movie.

I have the utmost respect for most of the Law Enforcement Community but, as with any occupation, you have the "hotdogs" and "cowboys" that abuse their power. I think a lot was handled incorrectly in this arrest.

 

[fjrchooser]

This chase took place in my neck of the woods- the Detroit Metro area. Around here these perps are very busy doing a couple of home invasions, party store robberies w/homicide, etc a week.

I want them caught but not at any price. I noticed a lack of backup in this clip, one other police car was all I believe I saw and that was several minutes in. A little more assistance could have prevented this from becoming the cross town marathon it became.

Part of the problem here is police dept. downsizing due to hard times, coupled with a large population of hardened criminals willing to do whatever it takes to be free to pillage another day. Personally, I'd rather have to sweep my own street, have garbage picked up every other week than have to augment the police force in my own home, while out shopping, driving to work, etc.

The officer worked hard to get this jerk and I'm glad he did. You can bet he's reviewed the chase tape many times, questioned his actions and judgement each time and realized he was lucky no innocents got involved.

The next chase he gets in he may handle differently, allowing the perp to escape only to be knocking on Jestal's or my door one dark night. Given a choice, I'd rather be dodging them while wide awake on the mean streets than tussling with them in my bedsheets.

 

[evil_henchman]

tussling with them in my bedsheets

That sounds kind of.... :lol:

And dammit ponyfool, I already want to move to Portland so bad I can taste it. You're not helping! :angry2: :lol:

 

[ponyfool]

The problem with "you can't outrun the radio" is, you still have to get in front of the subject and find a way to actually stop the subject. Imagine your neighborhood. Imagine cops are trying to stop you. How many cops would it take to actually have one placed at every major street to intercept you. The options to a suspect are wide open. The instant they see a police car up ahead, turn. So, sadly, even though there is the term "you can't out run the radio", that would apply more to an interstate pursuit than a city pursuit. Now, with a helicopter, that's a different story. Most departments with a helicopter (and those numbers are dwindling), incorporating a no direct pursuit policy while the helicopter has eyes on the suspect, I'm all for that. No cops behind the suspect, suspect slows down but is still being watched. Officers can parallel and when he gets stuck in traffic or bails out, pounce.

With a car, a lot of the negative scenarios don't apply because the officers can spike strip it, PIT it, box it in at slow speed, etc. Lots of options.

But with a motorcycle, most of those options have been deemed deadly force because of the increased risk of serious injury or death to the suspect.

Yea, yea, I know, who cares, right? Well, I do for one. If a person needs to have deadly force used against them, fine. But let's take this guy for example. Maybe it was a stolen motorcycle, and if he was on MY stolen motorcycle, I sure wouldn't care much for him, but kill him? Come on! Maybe he is even the lowest of the low and has gotten away with murder OJ style, the punishment for riding a stolen motorcycle and fleeing from the police shouldn't be death. Thus, deadly force is not an option.

Now, the guy starts going through intersections at high speed in rush hour where he is likely going to kill someone, you have two choices to make: stop him by whatever means necessary, or let him go. If you choose option 1, then the gloves are off and deadly force is authorized, run him over, shoot him, whatever. Get him stopped because he is an imminent threat to the public. If you choose option 2, you need to stop every aspect of the chase. No following with your lights off, etc, because that will still cause him to flee.

Where this line becomes more clear is when the person's driving was demonstrated to be so poor BEFORE the police started to chase him.

Now, having said all that, reviewing option 1. Even though deadly force is authorized, believe it or not, there would still be a public outcry if officers on the side of the road simply opened fire killing the driver/rider. Inevitably, the parents, brothers/sisters, cousins, neighbors, teachers and parole officer would get on TV saying that the guy was just starting to turn his life around, etc, etc, etc. Not to mention, shooting a moving vehicle isn't the wisest of choices in that if it is still moving, you now have a 4000lb projectile that needs to stop.

 

[Bounce]

But that was very sloppy police work, during and after the chase. I thought he acted like an *** at the end, barking out those commands, especially considering that he knew he was on camera.

i'm guessing you missed the part about how, once cornered, the runner tried to pull a gun. you can see the 2nd cop haul it away as he walked back past the camera.

 

[ponyfool]

But that was very sloppy police work, during and after the chase. I thought he acted like an *** at the end, barking out those commands, especially considering that he knew he was on camera.

i'm guessing you missed the part about how, once cornered, the runner tried to pull a gun. you can see the 2nd cop haul it away as he walked back past the camera.

And that right there is why witness testimony is not always reliable. People see the same event, but focus on different things, thus do not actually SEE the same thing. This is just a prime example.

This is why sometimes (I am not defending every situation), but sometimes, no, often times, when there is a video of a police action, some people are screaming police brutality because they aren't looking at the same thing the officers on the scene are looking at. It also goes a long way to prove the point of the common saying, "Not everything is as they appear." It's all about perceptions and interpretations.

 

[Bounce]

Bounce: I did not see a draw down in the backyard, I did see one Hyped up cop

you don't see it because of the camera angle. you do hear the cop tell him to drop the gun and see the 2nd cop frisk the runner while the 2 cops are talking (listen to the conversation) with cop 1 telling cop 2 about the gun. you then see cop 2 walk back past the camera with the gun. given typical situations, cop 2's gun would have been back in his holster (protected during a grapple by many commonly-used holsters with specialized retention systems) by then (using both hands for the frisk of a restrained suspect).

I noticed a lack of backup in this clip, one other police car was all I believe I saw and that was several minutes in. A little more assistance could have prevented this from becoming the cross town marathon it became.

watch it again. most of the "back up" and use of "Motorolla" was spent blocking side streets so cross traffic wouldn't be worse. i saw several side roads blocked by cruisers with lights going as the chase passed.

everyone could use this video to practice your situational awareness (S.E.E.). include your ears. exclude your bias. :rofl:

 

[ponyfool]

OK, I went back and rewatched the entire video. In the beginning when he reads the plate, the dispatcher (or another officer) says, "10-4 that's the vehicle....gun...."

So, this isn't a violation pursuit. That changes things to some degree.

As mentioned earlier, I thought the officer was reckless in his contact with the vehicle, but upon watching it again, it does appear to be intentional.

And, you can clearly see that the officer in the back yard is telling him to drop the gun and is worried about a gun, and as Bounce said, you can see the other officer walking away with it all the while the suspect saying, "I ain't got no gun."

Now, having said all this, the only thing this "new" information does is mitigate the contact with the bike, it doesn't mitigate the intersections that cop took at 60mph IMO.

 

[05fjrBluedevil]

, yep this was out of control, and the people that were suppose to be getting the situation in control to protect and serve, must have forgot what their duty was, it appears to be happening all the time.

Maybe they need better training!

:dribble:

Glad, I do not live there!

It almost seem as though the police were blocking intersections to let the chase continue!

Instead of trying to stop it with out causing the rider thief harm.

As far as the officers actions once in custousy, I think that there are just too many instances were they let the rage of the chase cause them to act like a criminal!

NOw if the rider was pointing a gun at them with his left hand then I may change my outlook on the situation.

 

[ponyfool]

Instead of trying to stop it with out causing the rider thief harm.

Where did you get the idea he was a thief?

 

[nusman68]

Well, I think just about all perspectives have been explored here...

The answer is....

that's just it- there is no easy answer (DUH)

In the Houston area, several years ago, they had no-limits chase policies..(read: there was no 'chase policy') Innocent people got killed, bad guys got caught. After enough public outcry, the police chief implemented a 'no-chase' policy. Gee, that was great. It was a bad joke....even though they knew (or noticed) the cops weren't pursuing, the bad guys still ran, and fewer were caught. Now they have a 'modified' policy, (to my knowledge still in place) in which a supervisor has to 'authorize' a pursuit, and if it gets 'too dangerous' (how do you quantify that?) it's called off. By that time, usually a helicopter is assisting and can direct ground units who have saturated the area. (No shortage of helicopters here, both police & news choppers especially). There are still crashes, without question, but the number of incidents seems much less.

Agree about the blowing the red lights...no way the cop should have been doing that. He should have at least slowed down and 'cleared' the intersection before proceeding. If I were to do what that cop did while driving my ambulance and hit somebody, I could be found criminally negligent, lose my job, face jail time--even though I may have been on the way to someone in cardiac arrest...I must say the cops get away with it though..I don't mean during a chase, just on the way to a call.

So where do you draw the line? I believe 'common sense' must come into play here, but that often goes out the window, especially when you have a pissed off, emotionally charged authority figure hopped up on adrenaline behind the wheel---and by the way, (with regard to the end of the chase) officer, your siren came with an 'OFF' switch... :glare: Huh? What? What did you say?

EDIT: P.S.- That video is a great example of why I tell my family and friends to *never* trust their life to a traffic light...always make sure the intersection is clear before proceeding....

 

[user 213]

This chase took place in my neck of the woods- the Detroit Metro area. Around here these perps are very busy doing a couple of home invasions, party store robberies w/homicide, etc a week.

Party store robberies? Is that Detroitese for a liquer store or a drug dealer?

 

[jestal]

They do not call off chases even once started even when they escalate past the acceptable risk. Fact.

That is NOT fact. Maybe where you live, but not where I live. We call off more pursuits than we finish. So, get your FACTS straight or stop labeling them fact. It is a matter of training and accepting. Not all departments have solid policies, and like you said, some that do ignore them. I am proud of the fact that I don't work in one of those departments. I'm also quite sure that my department is not alone in this. I do remember, about 15 years ago, when this change started to happen. It took about 5 years to fully implement, but I can tell you right now as I said before, if an officer in this department was engaged in a pursuit like this one, he would have a very difficult time keeping his job.

I didn't say they NEVER call off pursuits. Sure they do sometimes. But not always. Fact because they are reported commonly around here that the pursuit continued beyond reason causing an serious accident. The cops around here cannot seem to be trusting in using reason when and when not to continue a chase within reason.

Want more proof. That idiotic show COPS and HOT PURSUITS on the Court TV channel. Do they really need 6 or 8 police cars running nose to tail to chase one suspect?? Really now. Seems like way too much "fun" for everyone joining in on the chase and playing stunt driver....which they aren't by watching their rediculous driving technigues.

Ask the kid's parents in the Detroit area that the cops shot and killed as he allegedly "charged them" from the bottom of the basement steps with a steak knife. 18 shots but only 10 hit him. duh. The kid was deranged, the parents knew it and told the dispatcher when they called and the cops were called to help. So they killed him..... Cops are proven to not be able to decide which "perp" to shoot or not so that is why the public sues them not because they do not want the bad guys off the street.

So, what would your resolution be? The kid was deranged, armed, and apparently so intimidating that the parents called for help. Should the officers have simply retreated and said, "Sorry, call us later when he isn't charging us with a knife"? You seem to think that the cops were hoping to kill him.
Have you ever had someone charge at you with a knife intending on plunging it into your chest until you are lifeless because they weren't of the right mind, either due to some mental defect (be it mental illness or drug induced)? Have you ever actually seen how long it takes for a person to close the gap of 21' that is armed with a knife? Have you ever tried to shoot a moving target while retreating for your life? If so, were you 100% accurate?

I don't know any of the circumstances behind the shooting in the Detroit area that you mention, but I'll wager money that you probably don't know much FACT about it either, only what you read in the paper. Well, having been involved in countless dozens of situations that have made the paper and seeing how it was reported, I can tell you that Thomas Jefferson was correct when he said, "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers."

By the way, in case you are wondering, have you ever seen what a deranged person with a knife is capable of? If not, click on the following three very graphic images, and you'll see just what a risk a person with a knife can be:

Uh....the rest of the story is:

The cops were specifically called for help by the parents who explained the situation. There wsa no need for the cops to press the situation until a special unit arrived that was called and enroute. There was no need for intervention in the mean time.

Situation seemed far more the sort of think a Taser should be used for instead of a fricking gun.

The cowboys in question were on the dash cam tape overheard saying "if he comes at me he is a dead man" while they were in the yard before entering the house and coxing the kid to the base of the stairs. Fact. Heard the tape myself. They went in looking for trouble and goaded him into coming to the stairs and shot him before he started up.

They claim he was "charging them"...??? He was at the bottom of 12 stairsteps when they shot (at) him 18 times. There was no blood nor spatter on the stairs them selves. Cops claim he was at the top of the stairs but the crime scene photos clearly indicate he was crumpled at the bottom of the stairs and was probably shot before he even stepped foot on the stairs.

18 shots from two guys and they only hit the target 10 times from close range. I'm a poor shot and I can do better than that with my eyes closed. They need their guns taken away. Considering their aim I can see why they might have been afraid of a steak knife (this is an eating utensil....not necessarily a terrible weapon).

Any reason to shot to kill instead of just stopping him with one shot? The tapes of the shooting from the police dash cam sound tracks was rediculous as to how long they kept firing. Anyone could have seen after one or two shots whether the kid was stopped or not. This was not a kid on level ground 6 feet away. He was in the basement well below them.

Clearly in this case the cops erred severely yet the case passed scruntiny three times from internal affairs and the state. Duh..... Somebody needs their head examined before giving people like that the ability to make decisions based on common sense and reason in an emergency.

I don't know why this gets under my skin so bad but it really does....

I think I may know why. Because you feel helpless about a situation you are passionate about. That is very common. Perhaps it would be better to fully educate yourself about the issue at hand and work to improve it.

I agree with you up to the last few words.

The MORE I educate myself and see the real world happenings the more paranoid I get about the cops and their ability to make decisions under fire and in emergency situations. There is way too much proof of their errors in judgement. Sorry if this offends you but I am becoming more and more paranoidd that I or someone I love will become a victim of one of their poor decisions.

I have already come close once when a Michigan State Police cruise crossed the snow covered median at a high rate of speed and tried to make a "boot legger's turn" in front of me on the interstate between Lansing and Grand Rapids Michigan. Needless to say he lost it and we almost had a headon collision. I had to make excessive avoidance maneuvers or we would have collided....yet, his gestures to me afterwards would make you think that I caused the problem by simply being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

I have taken several police pursuit driving courses at the General Motors Desert Proving Grounds (Maricopa County Police and Mesa Police) and have served as the "rabbit" for those courses on the weekend several times. Driving skills can be taught, yes, but the cops I observed were often slow learners and did NOT have "driving" as an inherently inherited skill....... This is from direct personal observation, not second hand or press provided information.

Soooo....pardon me for being so negative and "poorly informed" with my opinions but I suspect if more people were equally "pooring informed" they would agree with me instead of you.

 

[ponyfool]

I have heard complaining, but no solution Jestal. What's your solution? You obviously believe you need a more professional police department. What have you done to solve that problem?

I am not offended by your rantings because I KNOW they don't apply to me or my agency. I know that the area I work, including the surrounding counties including up into Washington have professional police departments with honest, hard working, dedicated, good police officers that make good decisions.

But, something tells me that you wouldn't be satisfied here either. You are just too bitter. Your comments, like these:

They claim he was "charging them"...??? He was at the bottom of 12 stairsteps when they shot (at) him 18 times. There was no blood nor spatter on the stairs them selves. Cops claim he was at the top of the stairs but the crime scene photos clearly indicate he was crumpled at the bottom of the stairs and was probably shot before he even stepped foot on the stairs.
18 shots from two guys and they only hit the target 10 times from close range. I'm a poor shot and I can do better than that with my eyes closed. They need their guns taken away. Considering their aim I can see why they might have been afraid of a steak knife (this is an eating utensil....not necessarily a terrible weapon).

Any reason to shot to kill instead of just stopping him with one shot? The tapes of the shooting from the police dash cam sound tracks was rediculous as to how long they kept firing. Anyone could have seen after one or two shots whether the kid was stopped or not.

do show me one thing about you. You are NOT well informed on these life/death issues. You have no experience with this type of situation, and you take way too much liberty with someone else's life with the luxury of hindsight.
Why do I think this? Because you appear to contradict yourself but don't even realize it. You say they could have easily known after one or two shots whether or not the kid was stopped, but then say that the audio indicated they fired for a long time. That would indicate that they did just what you demand they do, but realized it didn't work. They shoot, he keeps coming, they keep shooting, he keeps coming, they keep shooting. Oh, by the way, the pictures I posted in my other post, those were caused by what you seem to consider a harmless eating utensil.

 

[odot]

...and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just my two cents worth. I could pony up and pay for some popcorn, though.....

 

[jestal]

Well, they could start on a solution by holding the cowboys responsible for their actions instead of covering up for them as is often the case. Cops should NOT be above the law yet many of them seem to think they are and are often treated that way based on the outcome of the situations described.

Definitive rules regarding what constitutes a high speed chase situation and what doesn't to take the "choice" out of the real time event. That way the officer doesn't look like a weany for not proceding if the regulations prevent it....or he was overcome by emotion thus clouding his rational decision making process.

I think I have some very constructive ways to improve the police departments I have been in contact with and could easily think of others without placing anyones life in danger. It seems to me the antics I observe indicate the officers often put their own life in danger because decisions are left up to them.

I am not bitter at anyone just annoyed to see my tax dollars mis-used and often used against me.

I'm also annoyed to see the cops used as a revenue generating scheme which dilutes the whole idea of law enforcement. Spare me the rebuttal on this one. Our governor made it clear that she would use the police as a revenue generating scheme to balance the budget and immediately jacked up fines and created new fines to aid in filling the coffers. This would stop if I was king.

As far as me not being informed on the issue I mentioned I still question why the cops that shot the kid even went into the house at all. There was no immediate need, he posed no danger to anyone and an experienced psychiatric unit was en-route to handle the whole thing. They just had to be cowboys and go in to take matters in their own hand. Now the parents are suing for millions and MY tax dollars will end up being used to pay them off due to the poor decision making of those two idiots. Don't tell me they couldn't stop a teen ager with a steak knife at the bottom of 12 steps without shooting at him 18 times. You must think that I am an *****.

You indicate I am willing to take liberties with someone else's life with the luxury of hindsight...???....those cops too a LOT of liberties with the kids life before they snuffed it out and walked off scott free. Same as the high speed pursuits take a LOT of liberties with innocent bystander's lives without their permission. I think you REALLY need to understand who is taking liberties with whose life before you condemn my comments.

I am sure that there are police departments that are well run.....somewhere. Trouble is that all that I have had dealings with from the deep south to the west coast to DC to PHX, Arizona to Michigan have all had serious short comings. My comments come not from any prejudice toward cops but from personal experience and personal observations, period.

BTW....I live two doors from our local police chief and know him reasonally well. We talk about this sort of thing quite often. He actually runs a pretty good force I would say and shares many of my viewpoints, surprisingly. He has the luxury of handling a small force in a small town with not much crime so it doesn't have the demands of a large urban force with murders and bank robberies and such so it is a little bit different. But, I take the fact that we can talk about this stuff and he doesn't just laugh at my ideas or comments as proof that I am not just some bitter raving lunatic. OK....maybe I am a raving lunatic but not bitter.

Edit: I hate to keep adding fuel to the fire here, but, I'm not making this **** up....

https://www.comcast.net/news/national/index...vqh=itn_92woman

There was a similar situation here in Detroit about 4 months ago when the narcs went to the wrong house with their warrant, knocked the door down without knocking/announcing and shot the occupant who was completely innocent, unarmed and not even the guy they were looking for. He apparently had his hands in his pockets and didn't stop when ordered to do so. So they shot a 70+ year old man because "he threatened them". What would anyone do when someone knocks their door down and charges into their house?? I know what I would do. That is what scares me and keeps me geeked up on this topic.

 

[SouthernCruizer]

Was that Thug being chased in the video?? :blink:

 

[jestal]

...and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just my two cents worth. I could pony up and pay for some popcorn, though.....

Since the intertainment is free the least you could do is spring for beer......

 

[ponyfool]

Edit: I hate to keep adding fuel to the fire here, but, I'm not making this **** up....
https://www.comcast.net/news/national/index...vqh=itn_92woman

You are truly amazing! How you can have all the details to make such a solid and sound decision and feel so confident that it is wholly accurate is a talent very few possess, so congrats on such an ability!

You go on to say how a similar incident happened where they got the wrong address, so you apparently didn't read the article you posted where they weren't at the wrong address, they knocked, got no answer and then executed the search warrant on the correct house, came under fire, returned fire, and found the drugs in the house that the warrant authorized them to look for.

What would your solution to this one be? I'd REALLY like to hear how you would have handled this one! Please, enlighten me with the thorough details of this particular situation and how you would have done it!

It sounds like your solution would be no search warrants. That, in addition to no pursuits. No traffic tickets. What exactly is it you would like the police to do? Once you answer that, how is it you would like to see them accomplish this?

 

[rangerray]

Unless the guy was absolutely known to have committed a violent crime, the cops should have backed off. The cops have no right to simply kill you on your bike for no reason other than you won't stop for them. If someone is intent on committimg suicide, I see no reason for the cops to save him the trouble and put a bullet in his head! The runner in the video was definitely suicidal in this video. Oh, and I noticed that the runner did pass a couple of units to the side of the road. Why not just t-bone the runner and get it over with? It could be that the other officers knew better than to try and kill the guy. I think the biker, stupid as he was, has a good case against the police for misuse of deadly force.

Maybe we should all do our part and run over some jay-walkers when we have the opportunity to save the police from having to worry with the minor infractions.