HIDs v/s halogens

[charismaticmegafauna]

Here's a quote from page 91 of the current (August) issue of CW:

"Lights are important in Baja because a significant portion of the race is run during the night, and for high speeds the big halogens work better than HIDs."

I'm aware of the lower power consumption of HIDs -- but, this comment about Honda's Baja-winning CRF450X really surprised me. I think there may be a few Forum members who could speak to this issue....(and, maybe link to some previous discussion/s)?

What does Honda know? :blink:

 

[bmwhd]

Here's a quote from page 91 of the current (August) issue of CW:"Lights are important in Baja because a significant portion of the race is run during the night, and for high speeds the big halogens work better than HIDs."

I'm aware of the lower power consumption of HIDs -- but, this comment about Honda's Baja-winning CRF450X really surprised me. I think there may be a few Forum members who could speak to this issue....(and, maybe link to some previous discussion/s)?

What does Honda know? :blink:

Hmm...I can think of no situation where halogens are superior to HIDs. I wonder if that's really what the author meant to say or if the editor screwed him. i.e. he could have been comparing large frame mounted halogens vs. helmet mounted HID spots and his point got lost.

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

"... for high speeds ..."

If I recall correctly this was discussed a while back.

Light from halogens travels faster than light from HIDs.

You don't want to be traveling faster than your lights do you?

 

[vectervp1]

"... for high speeds ..."

If I recall correctly this was discussed a while back.

Light from halogens travels faster than from HIDs.

You don't want to be traveling faster than your lights do you?

Umm... what? :blink:

 

[Lake Powell]

There is simply no comparison, my opinion, HIDs are the only way to go. Some members here have taken before and after pictures that are good examples but in no way give the full effect.

If you are doing any night riding to speak of they are without question the way to go.

I have also noticed that I get less cagers pulling out in front of me with the HIDs also, well at least I think that's why.

I have the type of HIDs that move in and out for high beam and the the mini ballasts. I have about 6500 miles on this set up so far and no problems.

 

[Lake Powell]

"... for high speeds ..."

If I recall correctly this was discussed a while back.

Light from halogens travels faster than light from HIDs.

You don't want to be traveling faster than your lights do you?

FJR, about 165 MPH

Light, about 669,600,000 MPH

I think you'll be Okay. :yahoo:

 

[double_entendre]

"... for high speeds ..."

If I recall correctly this was discussed a while back.

Light from halogens travels faster than from HIDs.

You don't want to be traveling faster than your lights do you?

Umm... what? :blink:

You didn't know? It's a function of the extra heat generated by halogens. Heat = energy and thus the light from halogens has more energy and can go faster.

Rancho

 

[Finder]

It's about brightness, color, and cutoff. If you've ever ridden in a car with stock HIDs, you'll notice a very defined cutoff. Your ability to see the road above the cutoff is reduced dramatically because the HIDs are so bright below the cutoff, your iris is adjusting for that portion of the road. So even though there is enough spill to light up the road above that cutoff, your eyes won't be sensitive enough to see it with the iris that far closed. Add the fact that blueish light is on the high end of the visible energy spectrum, you're basically shutting off your night vision with HIDs.

With halogens, you don't get as much of a cutoff, plus it's a 'softer' less intense light. You don't end up concentrating on the area just in front of the car as you do with HIDs, and your eyes adjust more towards dark vision, allowing you to see more details on the portion of road that isn't lit up.

On a side note, ever wonder why BMWs use red instrument lighting? To preserve night vision! Blue = bad!

 

[ionbeam]

....On a side note, ever wonder why BMWs use red instrument lighting? To preserve night vision! Blue = bad!

Red = bad for the color blind.

 

[Ignacio]

It's about brightness, color, and cutoff. If you've ever ridden in a car with stock HIDs, you'll notice a very defined cutoff. Your ability to see the road above the cutoff is reduced dramatically because the HIDs are so bright below the cutoff, your iris is adjusting for that portion of the road. So even though there is enough spill to light up the road above that cutoff, your eyes won't be sensitive enough to see it with the iris that far closed. Add the fact that blueish light is on the high end of the visible energy spectrum, you're basically shutting off your night vision with HIDs.
With halogens, you don't get as much of a cutoff, plus it's a 'softer' less intense light. You don't end up concentrating on the area just in front of the car as you do with HIDs, and your eyes adjust more towards dark vision, allowing you to see more details on the portion of road that isn't lit up.

Huh? :glare:

First off the lights they're running in Baja aren't anything like a stock headlights with a cutoff. They're running driving lights or pencil beam type reflectors without cutoffs.

Regardless, the cutoff function isn't related to the type of light source, but the design of the reflector. You can cut off halogens just as cleanly as you can HID...it's just that in more recent automotive applications that use HID they're paying attention to cutoff and making it sharper. It's entirely a function of the precision of the reflector and the size of the filament or gas chamber on the HID...which are about the same size.

There have long been halogen lights with crisp cutoffs....I know because I've had precision ground Hellas as early as 1988 running 90/130 halogens and the cutoff was just as crisp as anything I've had in HID automotive.

As for brightness.....that's not an issue either. Lumens are lumens regardless of source...it's just that HID produce far more of them than halogen given the same wattage and bulb size.

There is also no measurement for "intense" or "softer". If anything these subjective terms are probably related to the performance of the reflector and whether there are hot spots or how the light is distributed. Again, Hella is a great example of a great reflector with their Free Form design that spreads light evenly over an area.

As for color. You're closest to nailing the point here....and may be related to the intense/softer issue as well. Light color (as measured in Kelvin) is in different ranges between HID (4000K+) and halogen (3200K). And our eyes do respond very differently to different color choices. I have a feeling they prefer the colors produced by halogen for their Baja pilots than the range available in HID.

I know from experience that I prefer as low an HID color as I can get. Having ridden with 6000K low beams I initially enjoyed the whitish sensation, but was harder on my eyes because it was bluer than the 4300K of my high beams. I've since replaced the low beams with 4300 and believe I see things better when riding. It's possible that if HID were able to cast in the 3200K range I'd like that even more, but given a choice of 2.5 times the lumens.....it's 4300K any day of the week.

And I have a feeling the Baja folks are not trading one HID for one halogen. I bet their trading one HID for two or three equivalent wattage halogens to make up for the reduced lumens. If you're not watt and aerodynamic challenged like us motorcycles are...a giant alternator and light bar on a truck can mount a ton of halogens if they so desire.

Personally, a set of HID Hella FF200 or Solteks at 4300K is pretty ideal for the FJR. Good color, great lumens, great reflector design and light dispersion, and easy on the alternator.

 

[LDRydr]

It's about brightness, color, and cutoff. If you've ever ridden in a car with stock HIDs, you'll notice a very defined cutoff. Your ability to see the road above the cutoff is reduced dramatically because the HIDs are so bright below the cutoff, your iris is adjusting for that portion of the road. So even though there is enough spill to light up the road above that cutoff, your eyes won't be sensitive enough to see it with the iris that far closed. Add the fact that blueish light is on the high end of the visible energy spectrum, you're basically shutting off your night vision with HIDs.
With halogens, you don't get as much of a cutoff, plus it's a 'softer' less intense light. You don't end up concentrating on the area just in front of the car as you do with HIDs, and your eyes adjust more towards dark vision, allowing you to see more details on the portion of road that isn't lit up.

On a side note, ever wonder why BMWs use red instrument lighting? To preserve night vision! Blue = bad!

Sorry, I disagree with this. The lights these guys are running don't have any sort of "cutoff" on them, they're off-road driving lamps designed to light up EVERYTHING. And I can tell you from my own experience running Baja Designs Soltek off-road HID lights on my FJR that the light spectrum of HID's is far superior to, and much easier on the night vision then halogens. Don't confuse a proper color temp in a good HID bulb with the cheap-*** blue lights the tuner-freaks put in their little street racers.

 

[KnuckleHead]

There is simply no comparison, my opinion, HIDs are the only way to go. Some members here have taken before and after pictures that are good examples but in no way give the full effect.
If you are doing any night riding to speak of they are without question the way to go.

I have also noticed that I get less cagers pulling out in front of me with the HIDs also, well at least I think that's why.

I have the type of HIDs that move in and out for high beam and the the mini ballasts. I have about 6500 miles on this set up so far and no problems.

+1 on not getting cut off. I rode my old VTX for 3 years before I got the HID and I was always getting cut off. After I put the HID, there was a noticeable decrease in people pulling out in front of me. I had the slim ballast HID kit in my garage before I even took delivery of my FJR...my wife thought I was nuts when I had the faring all ripped apart putting them in with 15 miles on the odometer.

IMHO, there are two things I will never have a bike without...HID's and Hyperlites.

 

[Finder]

Sorry guys. I don't think I'm doing a good job of getting the point across. The cutoff was an example. Any high speed night riding in off road conditions will require serious peripheral vision. Although the HIDs they run in Baja don't have the same cutoff as auto applications, they still project light in a limited flood or pencil beam.

I run Solteks on the street and they are perfectly fine for that application. There are markers through corners, and for the most part, roads are pretty predictable. When you're in the middle of the Baja 1000 on a motorcycle going 100+ mph, you need to be looking around 'past' the side of the beams. Imagine you're in a corner with your Solteks on and you turn them off. You'll soon realize that even with the low beams shining on the road, it takes you a while to see anything again. This is the same as leaving them on and looking to the right past the cast of the beam. You won't see anything because your eyes need to adjust.

Now the reason I'm saying halogens are better 'for off road riding' is that there is less adjustment for your eyes to see darker areas of the terrain beyond or around your beam cast. When you're in the middle of nowhere with no oncoming cars, no over head light posts, and nothing to cripple your night vision but your own lighting, the least amount of light you put on the trail for the speed you're riding is the optimal amount. But that's only part of it. Halogens have a lower color temperature. Given the same amount of lumens, a lower temperature light will cause a llesser effect to your night vision. HIDs simply do not currently reach the lower spectrum of light that halogens can.

Now also take into account the dynamics of an off road motorcycle. Is it always pointed nice and level with the trail? No, it's going to be bouncing all over the place. If you run relatively narrow Soltek beams on this setup, you'll light up a spot about 5 feet in front of you one moment, kill your night vision like setting off a camera flash, then light up the sky the next moment and see absolutely nothing on the ground. The effect with flood patterns will be better, but the effect is still there.

Don't assume that what works incredibly well on the street will work just as well on the trails. I still preach Solteks and PHIDs for burning miles at night on the interstate, but these Baja guys run off road segments in the dark faster than we feel comfortable riding during the day in general. It's a completely different environment with different requirements. Simple lumen output is not all it takes.

Hope this comes across better...

Cheers!

 

[Joe2Lmaker]

"... for high speeds ..."

If I recall correctly this was discussed a while back.

Light from halogens travels faster than light from HIDs.

You don't want to be traveling faster than your lights do you?

FJR, about 165 MPH

Light, about 669,600,000 MPH

I think you'll be Okay. :yahoo:

What about light traveling on a conveyor belt?

 

[slapnpop]

Sorry guys. I don't think I'm doing a good job of getting the point across. The cutoff was an example. Any high speed night riding in off road conditions will require serious peripheral vision. Although the HIDs they run in Baja don't have the same cutoff as auto applications, they still project light in a limited flood or pencil beam.
I run Solteks on the street and they are perfectly fine for that application. There are markers through corners, and for the most part, roads are pretty predictable. When you're in the middle of the Baja 1000 on a motorcycle going 100+ mph, you need to be looking around 'past' the side of the beams. Imagine you're in a corner with your Solteks on and you turn them off. You'll soon realize that even with the low beams shining on the road, it takes you a while to see anything again. This is the same as leaving them on and looking to the right past the cast of the beam. You won't see anything because your eyes need to adjust.

Now the reason I'm saying halogens are better 'for off road riding' is that there is less adjustment for your eyes to see darker areas of the terrain beyond or around your beam cast. When you're in the middle of nowhere with no oncoming cars, no over head light posts, and nothing to cripple your night vision but your own lighting, the least amount of light you put on the trail for the speed you're riding is the optimal amount. But that's only part of it. Halogens have a lower color temperature. Given the same amount of lumens, a lower temperature light will cause a llesser effect to your night vision. HIDs simply do not currently reach the lower spectrum of light that halogens can.

Now also take into account the dynamics of an off road motorcycle. Is it always pointed nice and level with the trail? No, it's going to be bouncing all over the place. If you run relatively narrow Soltek beams on this setup, you'll light up a spot about 5 feet in front of you one moment, kill your night vision like setting off a camera flash, then light up the sky the next moment and see absolutely nothing on the ground. The effect with flood patterns will be better, but the effect is still there.

...

Simple lumen output is not all it takes.

You're still missing the point. Only the last statement in your post is accurate.

Your other points about beam pattern are out of context. The pattern of the beam still has nothing to do with the light source (halogen or HID). That is a function of the optics (reflector and or projector).

HIDs will last long with no filament to burn out, draw less power and put out more light, and can be the optimum color spectrum.

It is true that too much light (especially in one area) will diminish your overall ability to see, but this has to do with the raw amount of output. You can "wash out" your vision with halogens just like HIDs, but it will take a lot more lights to do it.

There are other reasons a 450x team would run halogens. The stock 450x does not have a DC electrical system to run HID lights, and requires changing out the stator, adding a battery, and re-wiring. Every Baja team I deal with is running HIDs, not halogens.

 

[LDRydr]

Every Baja team I deal with is running HIDs, not halogens.

I was wondering how long it would take for you to chime in here!

Listen to what this guy is telling you, he knows his schit man!

 

[double_entendre]

It's about brightness, color, and cutoff. If you've ever ridden in a car with stock HIDs, you'll notice a very defined cutoff. Your ability to see the road above the cutoff is reduced dramatically because the HIDs are so bright below the cutoff, your iris is adjusting for that portion of the road. So even though there is enough spill to light up the road above that cutoff, your eyes won't be sensitive enough to see it with the iris that far closed. Add the fact that blueish light is on the high end of the visible energy spectrum, you're basically shutting off your night vision with HIDs.
With halogens, you don't get as much of a cutoff, plus it's a 'softer' less intense light. You don't end up concentrating on the area just in front of the car as you do with HIDs, and your eyes adjust more towards dark vision, allowing you to see more details on the portion of road that isn't lit up.

Huh? :glare:

First off the lights they're running in Baja aren't anything like a stock headlights with a cutoff. They're running driving lights or pencil beam type reflectors without cutoffs.

Regardless, the cutoff function isn't related to the type of light source, but the design of the reflector. You can cut off halogens just as cleanly as you can HID...it's just that in more recent automotive applications that use HID they're paying attention to cutoff and making it sharper. It's entirely a function of the precision of the reflector and the size of the filament or gas chamber on the HID...which are about the same size.

There have long been halogen lights with crisp cutoffs....I know because I've had precision ground Hellas as early as 1988 running 90/130 halogens and the cutoff was just as crisp as anything I've had in HID automotive.

As for brightness.....that's not an issue either. Lumens are lumens regardless of source...it's just that HID produce far more of them than halogen given the same wattage and bulb size.

There is also no measurement for "intense" or "softer". If anything these subjective terms are probably related to the performance of the reflector and whether there are hot spots or how the light is distributed. Again, Hella is a great example of a great reflector with their Free Form design that spreads light evenly over an area.

As for color. You're closest to nailing the point here....and may be related to the intense/softer issue as well. Light color (as measured in Kelvin) is in different ranges between HID (4000K+) and halogen (3200K). And our eyes do respond very differently to different color choices. I have a feeling they prefer the colors produced by halogen for their Baja pilots than the range available in HID.

I know from experience that I prefer as low an HID color as I can get. Having ridden with 6000K low beams I initially enjoyed the whitish sensation, but was harder on my eyes because it was bluer than the 4300K of my high beams. I've since replaced the low beams with 4300 and believe I see things better when riding. It's possible that if HID were able to cast in the 3200K range I'd like that even more, but given a choice of 2.5 times the lumens.....it's 4300K any day of the week.

And I have a feeling the Baja folks are not trading one HID for one halogen. I bet their trading one HID for two or three equivalent wattage halogens to make up for the reduced lumens. If you're not watt and aerodynamic challenged like us motorcycles are...a giant alternator and light bar on a truck can mount a ton of halogens if they so desire.

Personally, a set of HID Hella FF200 or Solteks at 4300K is pretty ideal for the FJR. Good color, great lumens, great reflector design and light dispersion, and easy on the alternator.

Awwww c'mon Iggy. Here two of us had a nice little semi-believable total ******** pseudo Friday fest going and what do you have to do? Get real! Add facts to the discussion. WTF with that????? Jeeezus.

:lol:

Rancho

 

[bmwhd]

It's about brightness, color, and cutoff. If you've ever ridden in a car with stock HIDs, you'll notice a very defined cutoff. Your ability to see the road above the cutoff is reduced dramatically because the HIDs are so bright below the cutoff, your iris is adjusting for that portion of the road. So even though there is enough spill to light up the road above that cutoff, your eyes won't be sensitive enough to see it with the iris that far closed. Add the fact that blueish light is on the high end of the visible energy spectrum, you're basically shutting off your night vision with HIDs.
With halogens, you don't get as much of a cutoff, plus it's a 'softer' less intense light. You don't end up concentrating on the area just in front of the car as you do with HIDs, and your eyes adjust more towards dark vision, allowing you to see more details on the portion of road that isn't lit up.

On a side note, ever wonder why BMWs use red instrument lighting? To preserve night vision! Blue = bad!

This is a common misconception and a favorite "HIDs are bad" argument perpetrated by the likes of Daniel Stern (a major after market Halogen bulb vendor). Ask any LD rider what they use for distance vision.

Take a look at this link before you decide: https://www.mvlc.info/pdf/2003-01-0295.pdf

There's also a reason BMW uses HIDs on their cars - you can see better with them.

 

[Warchild]

This is a common misconception and a favorite "HIDs are bad" argument perpetrated by the likes of Daniel Stern (a major after market Halogen bulb vendor). Ask any LD rider what they use for distance vision.

Exactly so.... that ******** Daniel Stern has always pissed me off with his rantings regarding aux lighting... as if he is some authority. Shyeah, right... that's a bunch of horsecock. Dude has a ******* web site with his opinions on it. Big whup. He has an agenda, and it's to sell halogen bulbs.