Hot start problems, anyone?

[Toynut]

Let's see here, it appears that I am encountering a classic hot start problem on my '05 ABS.

Here are some background facts:

My '05 ABS is on it's second battery (1st one crapped out with a bad cell within the first 12 months) and is always plugged in to a battery tender when parked.

I installed some heavy duty thermal insulation underneath the tank last summer (double foil faced) to reduce tank heat. Worked extremely well.

I have recently installed a pair of BlueFlame slipons, disconnected the O2 sensor, and installed a Power Commander and Wally's smoothness map (very nice).

A CalSci windscreen adds some additional ventilation to the upper tank area and rider as well.

I have the 5 year extended warranty, the bike has about 7200 miles on it.

The problem:

Last Sunday I took the bike out for a leisurely 35 mile ride to Ann Arbor in high 50-low 60 degree air temps. There was no traffic as I rode in on rural roads at an average speed of 45 mph. The temp gauge read 2 to 3 bars. I pulled off to our favorite breakfast stop and after dropping my wife off I had to move the bike to another parking spot. I hit the starter button and got a partial grunt (about a 1/4 turn of the engine). I hit it again and got the same grunt and a very slow crank of the engine. The third button push got it to catch, even though it was still cranking very slowly. The odo and clock had reset themselves when I pushed the starter button and the guage needles swept the guage as on a normal start up. I let the bike cool down as we ate brunch and it fired right up.

I rode the bike in to the office this morning (air temp less than 70 degrees) 25 mile ride, mostly freeway. Again no more than 2 or 3 bars on the temp guage. I tested it in my parking lot after shutdown. Same symptoms. I had to let the bike cool off for 15 minutes or so and it fired right up.

A normal conclussion might indicate that the starter is cooked even though at such low miles. The question I have to the forum members relates to how many have experienced the same scenario with you pre-'06 bikes? Did you start having issues after insulating the tank or fairing sides thereby trapping engine heat and cooking the electrics. I know that the PC map is not leaning out the engine (no spark knock, smooth power, normal exhaust outlet color).

Replacing the starter is not an issue (I'm not sure that it's included under the extended warranty, but such is life), I just need to be able to trust that the bike will start after a routine refueling stop or on a long road trip.

Anything else I should consider?

 

[Scab]

Sounds to me like a dead cell in the battery. Again. I would pull the battery and have it tested.

 

[snikr]

Yep...sounds like battery to me as well.

Tom

 

[extrememarine]

My '04 ABS was doing the same, only occured when hot and tried to restart to move the bike. Once it sat for a little while, it was fine. Installed new battery, no further problems.

-wr

 

[Scab]

My '05 ABS is on it's second battery (1st one crapped out with a bad cell within the first 12 months) and is always plugged in to a battery tender when parked.

If it turns out to be the battery, I was just wondering... I have an '05 (built 02/05, bought 10/05) and I'm still on the original battery with no issues as of yet. It's never been on a battery tender or charger of any sort. Course, it usually never sits more than a week or two and only then rarely. Have you tested your battery tender to see what kind of amperage is actually coming out of this thing? I wonder if it is too much and "cooking" your batteries to a premature death.

 

[Roadrider]

My '03 was doing the same thing when hot and I tried to restart. Once it sat for a little while, it was fine also. I installed a new battery, now it turns over slow when restarting but the clock and trip odos don't reset. Otherwise it starts without a problem. :dntknw:

 

[radman]

Symptoms point to dirty/poor connections. Heat increases resistance, hence the hot start syndrome. Will also contribute to poor charging, hence a double pronged problem. Clean cables at battery, clean ground cable connection at right lower front of motor. Do this before condemning battery.

 

[Geezer]

Sounds to me like you're just not riding fast enough.

On a serious note. it is certainly possible, but seems odd that you got two bad batteries. Do you ride with a voltage meter attached? It would be interesting to know what the normal voltage reading is coming out of the charging system while you ride.

If you replace the battery, go with a Westco rather than another Yamaha battery.

Another thought is that maybe you have your fuel lines routed somehow where one is getting more heat than it should. Maybe the insulation you installed is blocking air to the fuel line and causing it to heat up and vapor lock. This is unlikely, but worth a look if the battery doesn't solve the problem.

 

[vdoguy]

Those are the exact symptoms that I am experiencing with my 2004 ABS. It has only begun since I got it back from the shop after having the TPS recall done and a full replacement of the valve guides, no more ticking! :clapping:

I was wondering if this has anything to do with the TPS? When my bike is hot it will not start unless I hold the throttle open to about 3/4s full, then it fires up immediately. Have you tried this?

The bike always fires up when cold and the battery terminals are tight.

Can someone please shed some light on this issue before I have to take it in to my local Yamaha mechanic and face a lot of head scratching.

 

[Charlie Hoss]

I have to agree with Rad on this one. The starter takes SO much more juice to turn over the engine than any other component on the bike, or car for that matter. That's the reason the battery cables are so large. The connections at the battery, solenoid, starter, ground, etc, must be clean, as in rubbed down with emery cloth, and tight. I see that problem all the time on cars, especially in the winter. Check all the connections first , then suspect the battery.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never understood why experienced mechanics will clean the battery connection and then plaster a bunch of grease over both surfaces before reconnecting. Seems that would cancel out the effects of cleaning. I know they do it to prevent corrosion, but I would prefer to have a clean connection and just clean it more often if necessary.

vdoguy, same could apply to your problem. I had a GEN 1 Venture that would "kick back" when trying to start it, especially when warm. I would gas it some before hitting the starter to get it to fire up smoothly. I think the minor flooding condition would keep it from firing and kicking back against a slightly weak starter. A new battery always helped, but it still did it. The guys on the Venturers Forum felt that the batt cables were of too small a gauge in general and someone was selling a heavy 4 gauge cable set as a cure. I don't think you need heavier cables, just think you might want to check the connections.

Good Luck,

Charlie

 

[Toynut]

Thanks for your input, fellas. I will remove the plastics and start checking for the obvious. I was just concerned that the dual foil faced thermal barrier I placed underneath the tank and essentially above the starter, was creating a "baking" effect on the electrics by containing too much of the engine heat in the engine compartment. It is doing a terrific job of keeping the tank cool, however. :yahoo:

BTW, Why oh why couldn't Yamaha mount that battery in a more accessible location (under the seat) like everyone else? :angry2:

 

[Geezer]

Just reminiscing, but I still miss kick starters.

 

[vdoguy]

vdoguy, same could apply to your problem. I had a GEN 1 Venture that would "kick back" when trying to start it, especially when warm. I would gas it some before hitting the starter to get it to fire up smoothly. I think the minor flooding condition would keep it from firing and kicking back against a slightly weak starter. A new battery always helped, but it still did it. The guys on the Venturers Forum felt that the batt cables were of too small a gauge in general and someone was selling a heavy 4 gauge cable set as a cure. I don't think you need heavier cables, just think you might want to check the connections.
Good Luck,

Charlie

I'm pretty sure it's not the battery. Temperatures had fallen below zero and I hadn't ridden nor had the battery on a charger for over a week and it still fired up perfectly from cold. Seems to me that it has something to do with a sensor of some sort not sensing the throttle opening when hot. I'll post back once I've had my mechanic take a look at the problem.

 

[Orient_Express]

I had a similar problem with an old International Scout I owned years ago. Had a small hole in the header pipe that blew hot exhaust down onto the starter. Had to let 'er cool down before she would turn over and start again. Parked on a hill every chance I could to roll 'er and pop the clutch. Finally fixed the header pipe and all was good...

Is something causing your starter motor to get hotter than it should under normal operating conditions?

 

[madmike2]

Mine does the same thing. I have noticed that after I've parked and the temperature rises that the fan will kick on. When the fan is running the bike will not turn over briskly. If I will let the fan cycle and turn off the bike starts fine, even though its hot.

 

[Toynut]

I checked my connections (which were clean and tight), and installed a new AGM battery (as long as I already had the plastics off). The old battery showed 12.56 volts after being parked overnight. Initial testing on a hot (+89 F) day showed that the new battery did the trick. I still think that the heat retention in the engine bay is somewhat injurious to the starter's health. My Blackbird runs hot, yet, I have never noticed this type of behavior.

Orient, I am well aware of automotive applications where the close fitment of a header or a lost solenoid heatshield creates the same situation. Time will tell. <_<

 

[evil_henchman]

Also chesk your battery tender. It wouldn't be the first battery killing battery charger/tender.

 

[FJRAust]

As has been mentioned, consider looking further at electrical resistance.

When things get hot resistance increases.

Check all primary electrical connections from battery to starter solenoid and then to the starter. if in doubt (and recommend) fit star type locking washers under the terminals (not on top) you trying to ensure a clean resistance free circuit not a locking washer..

It may well be your starter or soleniod is destroying batteries due to too much load under hot starting due to increased reistance when hot. (when hot is the primary factor to consider)

Did you have any issues before installing the insulation under the tank.

 

[evil_henchman]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've never understood why experienced mechanics will clean the battery connection and then plaster a bunch of grease over both surfaces before reconnecting. Seems that would cancel out the effects of cleaning. I know they do it to prevent corrosion, but I would prefer to have a clean connection and just clean it more often if necessary.

You've obviously never spent days on end working on batteries and battery banks. :lol:

Mobil 1 synthetic grease is the stuff to use. It's the exact same stuff GE sells for $50 a toothpaste sized squeeze tube for lubing high voltage breaker stabs, disconnect switches, etc. It's conductive and really works to prevent corrosion.