IBR Failures

[BwanaDik]

Shameless bump because I don't want to side line the IBR thread.

So why are these machines failing? 1150 RT out with FD failure. A guy on an ST woth electrical failure. Others on the list. These guys must ride 20-30,000 mile a year on these same mounts, why do they fail now? Heat? Abuse of the equipment because of rider fatigue? I would think, given the machines involved (not including the Suzuki's), that these machines should not even be an issue. What gives you IBR guys? Why is 11 days back to back so different than, say, an "extended tour"?

 

[user 213]

Shameless bump because I don't want to side line the IBR thread.
So why are these machines failing? 1150 RT out with FD failure. A guy on an ST woth electrical failure. Others on the list. These guys must ride 20-30,000 mile a year on these same mounts, why do they fail now? Heat? Abuse of the equipment because of rider fatigue? I would think, given the machines involved (not including the Suzuki's), that these machines should not even be an issue. What gives you IBR guys? Why is 11 days back to back so different than, say, an "extended tour"?

Part of it is the conditions of weather and age. Often these are not new bikes, but well maintained ones never the less. Still, it's tough to prevent water intrusion when riding in a downpour all day on a bike with less than fresh sealing on the various parts. Constant use w/o a break sometimes does things too.

I rode most of the Spank rally in the rain this year, but had zero problems with the FJR. It's had 100k then, but was on it's second engine and the bike is only 6 years old. Our FJRs have great sealing electrical connectors too.

The FD problems have no apparent rhyme or reason to them. Low miles, high miles, constant use, test ride from the dealer's lot, all of these have had FD failures.

Some riders tear the entire bike down and go over everything, dielectric grease in connectors, re-wrapping wiring harness at chaffing points, upgrading known weak points, etc. Others do almost nothing and figure it hasn't broken yet, so it will probably be fine. Some do more harm than good in their attempts to improve things. In '07 a FJR rider DNF'd because his aftermarket ElectroSport stator failed. Final autopsy revealed it wasn't the fault of the stator, but the poor installation job by the mechanic that the owner paid to do the work.

Is 11 thousand mile days in a row different from extended tour? You bet. A lot of riders touring won't cover nearly as much ground, nearly as many bad or dirt/gravel roads, nearly as much riding in bad weather and won't be trying to maintain a strict schedule.

Keep in mind that some of the failures we are seeing would have failed for anyone just riding the bike. Some stuff just happens and you can't predict when it will, or even if it will. In past IBRs there were riders with known problem bikes, but those riders were carrying spares and tools to fix them and knew how to do it on the road. The prepared IBR rider has learned what failures to expect and how to deal with them, regardless of the bike choice. Rumor has it that while two of the BMW riders are carrying spare FDs, only one of them actually practiced swapping the FD with his bike tool kit.

 

[Bugnatr]

Man I dig all these IBR threads. Must get more popcorn, this is way better than any movie.

Agree with Eric, these riders are pushing their bikes just has hard as themselves. Aren't some of these breakdowns just Murphy's Law in action?

 

[Dan S]

Waiting patiently for WC to provide an update on the other tread so might as well chime in here. To add to what OCfjr said, besides riding a bit harder that us mere mortals, those guys are putting on a total of about 200 or more average "big rides" for us guys. I would guess that if 200 of us average riders posted a ride report for out big ride for the year there would be just as many breakdowns show up, maybe more. Probably no FD failures from guys on this forum but certainly some electrical and one or two serious mechanical failures that require a trailer rescue. Just speculating. Someone here could do a survey. How many 3000+ mile trips have you made? then tally the number of breakdowns that required getting hauled home.

 

[Lonerockz]

Dan, man I hope your wrong! Based on my causal observation folks riding bikes less than 10 years old that have their regular maintenance done don't have that many failures. I just did a Great Lakes Challenge (~2500 miles) with 30 other riders. The only mechanical issue was the guy on the 80's rebel 250(!). His tail light kept vibrating apart. There were a large variety of bikes and no issues. Most of these folks rode more than a 1000 miles to get to the start of the GLC. I would hope that in most cases well maintained bikes will do 3000 miles no problem.

Now on the IBR (and similar events), these bikes are being pushed to the limit. They are not designed for continual running over multiple days. Lubricants break down; metal fatigues; people forget maintenance tasks. In addition many folks have farkle induced failures. Now much has been made of the BMW final drive issue. I think the real problem here is that this is a really expensive part that should not be exhibiting failures like it does. Now BMW has no problem selling bikes. I am sure that they are looking into the issue, but not with much urgency. If they figure it out it will be rolled out quietly and as a new model year part. Otherwise thousands in recall costs.

 

[user 213]

Now much has been made of the BMW final drive issue. I think the real problem here is that this is a really expensive part that should not be exhibiting failures like it does. Now BMW has no problem selling bikes. I am sure that they are looking into the issue, but not with much urgency. If they figure it out it will be rolled out quietly and as a new model year part. Otherwise thousands in recall costs.

Sounds like an accurate assessment to me. Every new generation of BMW claims to have a freshly designed FD, including the new 1300GT. Only time will tell if they fixed that problem. Of course, then there is the tranny problems and the clutch problems and the cam problems....

 

[Rogue]

Dan, man I hope your wrong! Based on my causal observation folks riding bikes less than 10 years old that have their regular maintenance done don't have that many failures. I just did a Great Lakes Challenge (~2500 miles) with 30 other riders. The only mechanical issue was the guy on the 80's rebel 250(!). His tail light kept vibrating apart. There were a large variety of bikes and no issues. Most of these folks rode more than a 1000 miles to get to the start of the GLC. I would hope that in most cases well maintained bikes will do 3000 miles no problem.
Now on the IBR (and similar events), these bikes are being pushed to the limit. They are not designed for continual running over multiple days. Lubricants break down; metal fatigues; people forget maintenance tasks. In addition many folks have farkle induced failures. Now much has been made of the BMW final drive issue. I think the real problem here is that this is a really expensive part that should not be exhibiting failures like it does. Now BMW has no problem selling bikes. I am sure that they are looking into the issue, but not with much urgency. If they figure it out it will be rolled out quietly and as a new model year part. Otherwise thousands in recall costs.

You also have to factor in that most of these bikes probably have 50,000-100,000 miles on them before they start the IBR.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

They are not designed for continual running over multiple days.

Oh, I don't know...? I don't think your FJR knows if you ran it 2 days in a row or 10 days in a row?

Thermostat & fans control the temp. -- no matter how long you run it.

And..., they (IBR riders) are only doing the speed-limit, or less....

Now BMW has no problem selling bikes.

That may say more about their (BMW's) marketing expertise and less about their intended market....?

 

[Wheels Up]

<snip> Now on the IBR (and similar events), these bikes are being pushed to the limit. They are not designed for continual running over multiple days. Lubricants break down; metal fatigues; people forget maintenance tasks. In addition many folks have farkle induced failures. Now much has been made of the BMW final drive issue. I think the real problem here is that this is a really expensive part that should not be exhibiting failures like it does. Now BMW has no problem selling bikes. I am sure that they are looking into the issue, but not with much urgency. If they figure it out it will be rolled out quietly and as a new model year part. Otherwise thousands in recall costs.

And if your BMW went out of control at Interstate speed because the FD gear oil dumped on your rear tire and the main bearing locked up, your widow might have a lawsuit with merit against BMW Motorrad thanks to the records being kept on the BMWLT list and at www.bmwfinaldrive.com.

And I ride BMW's ... 1992 K75 /2 and 2002 R1150RT, but I can't stand Motorrad's decade long repetitive denial of the FD design problem.

Jim Puckett

www.notsupermanrally.com

 

[Lonerockz]

They are not designed for continual running over multiple days.

Oh, I don't know...? I don't think your FJR knows if you ran it 2 days in a row or 10 days in a row?

Thermostat & fans control the temp. -- no matter how long you run it.

And..., they (IBR riders) are only doing the speed-limit, or less....

I would disagree with you on this. Most motorcycle engine oil systems are not designed to be run 7x24x11. Oil breaks down with heat. I would hazard a guess that the oil in these bikes would provide less lubricant after 3000 miles (and only 3 days) than the oil in a bike that only sees 200 miles a day at 3000 miles. When the oil brakes down, parts have more friction, they get hotter and the oil breaks down more. Its like a vicious viscous circle. I honestly believe that this is what happens to the BMW final drives. I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

 

[Sportster]

I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

Oil in the swing arm like Buell?

Sportster

 

[Lonerockz]

I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

Oil in the swing arm like Buell?

Sportster

I mean as an aftermarket bolt on. I am sure that BMW could figure out a good way to cool it.

 

[bmwhd]

I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

Oil in the swing arm like Buell?

Sportster

Or...they could simply go with a double sided swing arm like a certain other world class ST bike with a shaft drive...

Seriously, ask yourself: how many times have you removed the rear wheel by the side of the road? Not patched a tire, actually removed the rear wheel? My current count is zero on the FJR. At home in the shop I can have the rear wheel off in under 5 min. Why do I need a single sided swing arm? Why even bother trying to solve the overly-complex set of forces at work in the Parlever at all BMW? Just send it the way of the Dodo bird.

 

[chrisflock]

They are not designed for continual running over multiple days.

Oh, I don't know...? I don't think your FJR knows if you ran it 2 days in a row or 10 days in a row?

Thermostat & fans control the temp. -- no matter how long you run it.

And..., they (IBR riders) are only doing the speed-limit, or less....

I would disagree with you on this. Most motorcycle engine oil systems are not designed to be run 7x24x11. Oil breaks down with heat. I would hazard a guess that the oil in these bikes would provide less lubricant after 3000 miles (and only 3 days) than the oil in a bike that only sees 200 miles a day at 3000 miles. When the oil brakes down, parts have more friction, they get hotter and the oil breaks down more. Its like a vicious viscous circle. I honestly believe that this is what happens to the BMW final drives. I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

I was under the impression that REPEATED heat cycles is what causes oil to break down. Running continuously at operating temp shouldn't be that hard on the oil, that's one reason that long-haul truckers can go so long between oil changes, while guys with diesel pickups running the same oil have

I've heard plenty of stories of people who changed the oil in their vehicle right before a cross-country trip, and then changed it when they got back and the oil still looks good when it comes out.

Of course, it is possible that the bikes in the rally are being ridden hard enough that the oil in them is getting above it's ordinary operating temp, and as a result is breaking down at accelerated rate...

As for the BMW final drives, taking the bike for a good ride and then taking the temp of the oil, or even the housing, should give you a pretty good idea if the oil is getting extremely hot. Of course, if it is getting real hot, that could be a sign of a bad bearing or a poorly lubricated bearing. If it is hot, then an oil cooler might increase the FD lifespan, but my guess is there is an underlying design issue, because plenty of motorcycles (and way more automobiles) have similar final drive units that don't have any system for cooling the oil, and are extremely reliable.

Here's an idea, maybe BMW ripped off the gov-loc differential design? Perhaps no one told them that a motorcycle drive doesn't need any form of limited slip!

 

[user 213]

BMW simply failed in the same way many manufacturers fail. They try too hard to be "different" to justify the excessive cost of their products. Some valid arguments can be made for the Paralever and duolever front end designs, but no similar argument exists for the single sided rear swing arm. It doesn't save time, it doesn't work better, it's simply a marketing feature and has become their weakness. Returning to a dual sided swing arm would almost certainly solve the FD problem, but doing so would force BMW to admit that they can't design a single sided swingarm that works, and worse, that Honda can.

 

[Lonerockz]

They are not designed for continual running over multiple days.

Oh, I don't know...? I don't think your FJR knows if you ran it 2 days in a row or 10 days in a row?

Thermostat & fans control the temp. -- no matter how long you run it.

And..., they (IBR riders) are only doing the speed-limit, or less....

I would disagree with you on this. Most motorcycle engine oil systems are not designed to be run 7x24x11. Oil breaks down with heat. I would hazard a guess that the oil in these bikes would provide less lubricant after 3000 miles (and only 3 days) than the oil in a bike that only sees 200 miles a day at 3000 miles. When the oil brakes down, parts have more friction, they get hotter and the oil breaks down more. Its like a vicious viscous circle. I honestly believe that this is what happens to the BMW final drives. I bet if they ran an oil cooler on the FD gear oil there would be less failures. Of course I have no idea how you actually accomplish that.

I was under the impression that REPEATED heat cycles is what causes oil to break down. Running continuously at operating temp shouldn't be that hard on the oil, that's one reason that long-haul truckers can go so long between oil changes, while guys with diesel pickups running the same oil have...

Long haul truck engines measure oil capacity in gallons (like 11+ gallons on a 12L engine) and have oil coolers. Of course they change their oil every 20K miles or so.

 

[user 213]

. When the oil brakes down, parts have more friction, they get hotter and the oil breaks down more. Its like a vicious viscous circle. I honestly believe that this is what happens to the BMW final drives.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. There is no correlation between high miles and long running times and FD failure. Bikes have been reported to have FD failures on test rides from the dealership, and well over 80k miles. Both weekend riders with low miles and short rides, as well as hard core LD riders during rallies.

We hear about the FD failures in the LD community more, but they happen to other riders just as often.

 

[BwanaDik]

I read an article about the FD failures some time ago by one of the BMW gear heads. Can't remember if it was in the BMW magizine or in MCN. IIRC the guys final analysis (obviously not confirmed by BMW) was an assembly error that put too much (or possibly not enough) preload on the big bearing in the hub. It had nothing to do with single sided vs. double sided swng arms, it was more of a machining/assembly error. Sorry about being so vague, age and alcohol ya know, maybe somebody in the BMW forums can find the article.

 

[Lonerockz]

. When the oil brakes down, parts have more friction, they get hotter and the oil breaks down more. Its like a vicious viscous circle. I honestly believe that this is what happens to the BMW final drives.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. There is no correlation between high miles and long running times and FD failure. Bikes have been reported to have FD failures on test rides from the dealership, and well over 80k miles. Both weekend riders with low miles and short rides, as well as hard core LD riders during rallies.

We hear about the FD failures in the LD community more, but they happen to other riders just as often.

I just went and looked at the stats from 2007. In my memory I thought there were like 8 FD failures. But there were only 3, with 39 shaft dive BMWs in the field that is only 7.7%. I was thinking that the IBR failures would be higher than this, I agree that it is possible that the general public could be experiencing the same failure rate. Which would put my theory in doubt.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Long haul truck engines measure oil capacity in gallons (like 11+ gallons on a 12L engine) and have oil coolers. Of course they change their oil every 20K miles or so.

Long haul truck engines, like 11+ gallons on a 12L engine = a little < 1 gal/liter of engine displacement.

FJR, 1+ gallon on a 1.3L engine = a little < one gal/liter of engine displacement.

FJRs have oil-coolers.

same -- same.... :blink: