Idle speed changed with oil change

[radman]

And while all this may sound strange, the science is sound. Example: I have a late-model automobile that requires 5w20 oil. The information with the vehicle clearly states: Under NO circumstance use 10s40! Why? Engine destruction. There is simply not enough room in the tollerances of the engine to move the oil and the engine will not lubricate. And because I don't have the study in hand or a link to web address don't make it any less true.If it makes no difference, put 90w gear oil in your crankcase and tell how long she lasts.

Hehehe. Actually, the reason manufacturers don't want 10-40 in there is from a spate of ring failures in the late 70's-early 80's when the additive package in the oil used to create such a wide viscosity spread caused deposits to build up in the ring lands causing the rings to wear substantially and/or stick. They still don't trust it. Another part of it (and the reason Ford went to 5w20) is to satisfy CAFE requirements in that lighter oil helps mileage. Fractionally in individual vehicles, but spread amongst half a million cars, it qualifies as a genuine mileage improvement that makes the manufacturers look good to the greenies and the gov, as well as a sales tool. 90w gear lube is about a 45-50w in oil numbers, a car could run it fine, just wouldn't last long nor would the motor using it due to the formula. As long as it fills the 2-3 thou bearing clearance, it would perform it's job. It could raise hell in a -15 degree cold start when the owner hits the freeway with an ice cold motor-sheared pump drives weren't all that uncommon in Minnesota winters back when straight 30 or even 10 was the rule. A pissed off owner, after 15 minutes of jump starting a flooded motor would put it to the boards to "teach this ******* a lesson, you running now bitch?!!" (a scene personally observed by your intrepid reporter) makes for some spectacular noises. Your idle jump? Have seen slight increases/decreases in idle speed when drastic viscosity changes were made, or when synthetic was introduced, but never 300 rpm. You don't mention how old the oil/filter was before the change, I suppose it's possible the wrong or a very well used filter was in place causing a restriction in flow, working the pump that much harder and accounting for the change. But not likely. Coincidences do occur, at strange times, hence the skepticism associated with them.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I noticed a small increase in the cold idle speed when I changed from 15w40 oil to 5w40 synthetic oil. This only occurred when the engine was cold with the coolant and oil at ambient temperature. The oil pump probably needs less power when pumping 5w oil versus 15w oil. Thus the cold engine has less load and idles faster. But, as soon as the oil reaches operating temperature there's probably little or no difference.

 

[Scab]

I beg to differ. The real reason manufacturers don't use 10w40 is because it is too thick. It won't clear the newer, tighter tollerances. This wasn't sparked during the 70's or 80's due to ring failure, but started (for Ford) with the introduction of the new (at the time) 4.6 liter V8 engine that replaced the 302 c.i. engine. The crown vic received this engine and thus, many fleets of police cruisers. As state agencies make purchases of bulk through an annual bid process, there was much 10w40 still in stock in the Highway Patrol's maintenance program. After servicing with 10w40, the 4.6 liter engine would blow the oil filter off and the engine would fail. This was well documented at the time as a Ford Motor Company rep from Atlanta was sent to investigate the large number of engine failures in Alabama Highway Patrol vehicles. It was not immediately apparent that the oil viscosity had been changed. I worked for the Ford dealership where many of these engines were replaced under warrany.

As manufacturing techniques have improved, the tollerances within the engine have been reduced. There is simply not enough room within these tollerances to move the heavier oils and lubricate the engine.

As for CAFE standards, this is the Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules as dictated by our federal government. This was initiated by the fuel shortages of the 70's. The CAFE standards dictate that an auto manufacturer must build autos that achieve (XYZ) mileage, as an average, over the entire line of products sold. This determines how many autos of each model must hit the street. The fuel economy numbers used for this average come from the same test that is used to post fuel economy on the sticker. It has nothing to do with the actual mileage of the autos once they have been sold. So, once the auto has reached your dealers lot, the CAFE standards have zero to do with what oil is in the engine.

As for my bike's idle change: While initially 300 rpm's, this was reduced after the oil was brought to temp., however not to where it was before and it did require readjustment. BUT, this still is not the point. I have read some of the threads about 'ticking' and read that some suspected 'starvation' of the valve guides from oil. If such is the case, then it only makes sense that the 'starvation' could possibly be contributed to by oil viscosity. Especially since the very definition of viscosity refers to any substances ability to flow or resist flow.

I just wondered if anyone had checked for the connection. Maybe, just maybe the path for the oil is not quite sufficient for the oil viscosity. Ever wonder why the part that is failing is at the top of the engine and furthest away from the source of lubrication?

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

If it's any consolation Scab, Im with you on this (tho, unless you succeed w/admins, you might get shunted to "never-ending pointless"). The oil viscosity/ticker connection is a very real one, imo; and I've attempted to broach it on several occasions previously but got few takers. First, if you check the specifications pages in the shop manual (and are familiar with reading the numbers) you'll find (as you suggest) that the clearances are way tighter in the FJR engine than most are historically familiar with. Second, Yamalube 20-40 is merely some oil bottled for Yamaha U.S. (Cypress) -- probably by the lowest bidder? -- and may be far from the best? Third, with very close tolerances between valve stem od and valve guide id you have the perfect set-up -- perfect set-up for a beautiful fit and timeless longevity (IF, the clearance gets properly lubed?); or, the perfect set-up for galling of the valve stem and rapidly increasing valve guide id wear (IF, there's a lack of lubrication due to too-thick oil and/or too effective valve guide oil seal?). Good scenario: modern engine, tight clearances, best/modern lubes, careful break-in = lots of miles and smiles for a long time. Bad scenario: modern engine, tight clearances, heavy motor oil, less than attentive care when new = ticker. IMO, the extra snug stem od/guide id is just such a good/bad set-up waiting to happen. Now, apparently, MamaYama has conceded to using a looser seal to accomodate those heavy-viscosity U.S. owners?

Just as with CAFE (where I also agree w/you) -- a similar case existed with Honda m/c decades ago; when they discovered that almost all of their engine oil leaks stemmed from the use motor oils of higher viscosity than optimum. It's an on-going struggle.....

 

[radman]

You guys are funny.

 

[SkooterG]

You guys are funny.

Funny as in "ha-ha"? Or funny as in "queer"?

 

[Scab]

Yeah, if they disagree, just insult them. Good to be back at the 3rd grade playground.

 

[SkooterG]

Yeah, if they disagree, just insult them. Good to be back at the 3rd grade playground.

3rd Grade?

Get it right bub. It's more like 2nd Grade.

 

[Toynut]

OK,OK, everybody!!

We can't possibly have a serious oil thread without input from our resident oil-meister.....Jestal..... :agent:

Jestal, we are all waiting patiently for your sage commentary on the subject!

 

[shuswaper]

Well...Scab and Charis., me thinks you are onto it! Kuddos to you both. For fellas like Skooter (with all due respect ofcourse), all I can say is: pour some 20-40 oil out of the bottle, slowly, then do the same with 5-40 Synthetic. You will notice a difference...flows easier. It doesn`t matter what temperature you do this at and you will most assuredly notice that the syn. 5-40 is thinner.One of the beneficial side effects of a synthetic oil is that it dissipates heat faster (among other things). I experienced this myself years ago when I switched brand and type when I had the Maxima and did my own oil changes. And yes, the fact that only the exhaust guides on the left side are wearing out quickly suggest an oil starvation situation that could easily be prevented with the use of a thinner oil or loose seals. Frankly, I have always felt the "Yammilube" was inncorrect for the FJR application and I have been suspicious of the guide/oil connection for over 2 years now and that`s why I switched to the 5-40 back then. It stands to reason that some seals (maybe many) on the pre `06 bikes are going to be looser from the get go as a result of differences in production tolerences and that would explain the huge variances in experience with the ticking issue re: oils, grades,break-in, riding speeds and style, distance driven etc. It has been mentioned more than once by others that there is no rhyme or reason to the ticking phenomena. Well, I think there is now! :assasin:

 

[SkooterG]

Well...Scab and Charis., me thinks you are onto it! Kuddos to you both. For fellas like Skooter (with all due respect ofcourse), all I can say is: pour some 20-40 oil out of the bottle, slowly, then do the same with 5-40 Synthetic. You will notice a difference...flows easier. It doesn`t matter what temperature you do this at and you will most assuredly notice that the syn. 5-40 is thinner.One of the beneficial side effects of a synthetic oil is that it dissipates heat faster (among other things).

shuswaper, with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about.

Your pour it out of the bottle analogy is just plain poor. Not applicable. Synthetic dissipates heat faster? What hat did you pull that rabbit out of? I have never seen a synthetic oil company claim that. If it was true, don't you think they would be marketing that?

Voo-doo

Black magic

Smoke & mirrors

Fact please, not fiction.

As for the valve guide problem, well, since you are all the experts and have got it solved, why don't you give Yammie a ring and let them know how to fix it. For you newbies, we have been down this road many a time before. There has been no correlation whatsoever betweeen type of oil, viscosity of oil, type of break-in. blah, blah, blah and engine developing the "tick". You guys crack me up!

Mental masturbation!!!

 

[SkooterG]

We can't possibly have a serious oil thread without input from our resident oil-meister.....Jestal..... :agent:
Jestal, we are all waiting patiently for your sage commentary on the subject!

+ a bazillion!

Ok, this thread has definitely earned a new home............

 

[radman]

OK,OK, everybody!!
We can't possibly have a serious oil thread without input from our resident oil-meister.....Jestal..... :agent:    

Jestal, we are all waiting patiently for your sage commentary on the subject!

Where's your God now???? Yeaaaaah.

 

[shuswaper]

Well...Scab and Charis., me thinks you are onto it! Kuddos to you both. For fellas like Skooter (with all due respect ofcourse), all I can say is: pour some 20-40 oil out of the bottle, slowly, then do the same with 5-40 Synthetic. You will notice a difference...flows easier. It doesn`t matter what temperature you do this at and you will most assuredly notice that the syn. 5-40 is thinner.One of the beneficial side effects of a synthetic oil is that it dissipates heat faster (among other things).

shuswaper, with all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about.

Your pour it out of the bottle analogy is just plain poor. Not applicable. Synthetic dissipates heat faster? What hat did you pull that rabbit out of? I have never seen a synthetic oil company claim that. If it was true, don't you think they would be marketing that?

Voo-doo

Black magic

Smoke & mirrors

Fact please, not fiction.

As for the valve guide problem, well, since you are all the experts and have got it solved, why don't you give Yammie a ring and let them know how to fix it. For you newbies, we have been down this road many a time before. There has been no correlation whatsoever betweeen type of oil, viscosity of oil, type of break-in. blah, blah, blah and engine developing the "tick". You guys crack me up!

Mental masturbation!!!

@ Skooter, addendum to my less than scientific display LOL ...oh yes, I forgot to mention: that the molecular arrangement of a syn. is different from dino oil. If you look through an electron microscope, you will see that the molecules are in alignment as a symetrical pattern as opposed to the haphazard arrangement (all over the place in different directions) on your regular dino oil. This results in a different set of properties.As such, the oil behaves differently under various loads and stresses. h34r:

 

[Windjammer]

If thicker, or "too thick" oil was the primary, direct cause of ticking, then why wouldn't there be more tickers in the North, where the oil stays thick for a longer time due to colder temps?

At an average repair cost of well over $1000, it would be safe to say that Yamaha has laid out over $100K in warranty repair on tickers. If they thought running 5w40 synthetic would solve the problem for good and all, don't you think they'd change the oil recommendation in the service manual, and issue a TSB to dealers? One would think they've done at least a little bit of research into this to help eliminate the problem and stem the flow of warranty dollars flowing out.

Not knocking synthetic, I use it myself. But not because I'm afraid the bike will tick if I don't. I've seen no body of evidence to support that. Only speculation.

 

[SkooterG]

Well said Windjammer.

Here is another little oil FAQ. Frankly I don't agree with everything it says, for instance the benefits of oil analysis (see Jestal's posts), but it has some excellent information.

For you synthetic groupies who believe it solves all of modern man's ills, see the section on synthetic oil. Sure synthetic is a better oil, but the conditions the FJR operates in do not take advantage of any of the synthetic oil's benefits. I particularly liked the following excerpt:

In short, synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is far better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine. The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate these benefits onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.

Have at it.

Motor Oil Myths and Facts

 

[SkooterG]

And some more........

Fuel efficient motor oils

 

[Scab]

At an average repair cost of well over $1000, it would be safe to say that Yamaha has laid out over $100K in warranty repair on tickers. If they thought running 5w40 synthetic would solve the problem for good and all, don't you think they'd change the oil recommendation in the service manual, and issue a TSB to dealers? One would think they've done at least a little bit of research into this to help eliminate the problem and stem the flow of warranty dollars flowing out.

Unfortunately, the people at Yamaha are just that: people. If they knew everything, we would never have had a ticker to start with.

I didn't mean for this to turn into an oil debate anyway. I just wanted to know if anyone was studying the oil/viscosity possibility. And, since no one knows why they tick, then I guess we'll have to wait for the Oliver Stone conspiracy revelation movie.

However, has anyone considered that Yamaha may know exactly why? Perhaps they can't say due to ALL of us would then demand repair even before the tick. They actually employ "bean counters" that calculate the mathematical probability of problems surfacing and base recalls (that are not safety related) on the less expensive choice - (recall vs. fixing as they break)

 

[Windjammer]

However, has anyone considered that Yamaha may know exactly why?

Absolutely bro! I'd be surprised if they haven't got the problem figured out by now, or at least have a few strong working theories. I wasn't trying to pick on the oil thing, it's just that so far, Yamaha has been paying $ to replace engine parts, while saying nothing about oil. While they are people, and indeed not perfect, if they had even an inkling that changing their oil recommendation could reduce the problem, they'd prolly find a way to let folks know about that. It would only be in their own best interest ($) to do so.

And, since no one knows why they tick, then I guess we'll have to wait for the Oliver Stone conspiracy revelation movie.

For now, that appears to be the case. Lots of theories, speculation and guesses, but no hard facts to date. Nothing wrong with speculation, as long as the mind is kept open to observe real evidence that would support or trash the theory.

 

[nusman68]

After servicing with 10w40, the 4.6 liter engine would blow the oil filter off and the engine would fail. This was well documented at the time as a Ford Motor Company rep from Atlanta was sent to investigate the large number of engine failures in Alabama Highway Patrol vehicles. It was not immediately apparent that the oil viscosity had been changed. I worked for the Ford dealership where many of these engines were replaced under warrany.

Oh, yeah! THAT explains why I'm always dodging hundreds of Motorcraft oil filters strewn about the highway that have been randomly blown off from our Crown Vic police interceptors in the county I work in.... <_< -guess our county maintenance facility better stop using that deadly 10W-40 crap; especially since FORD still sells it! :blink:

-and then there was this guy that woke up in his bathtub, full of ice; next to him was a phone, with a note that read 'CALL 911'.....