Intermittent stalling on the freeway.

[RaYzerman19]

First, don't make your fix list too long before doing the basics you planned, and getting a better understanding under more precise definition of the conditions and symptoms........ not that a relay can be checked very well without destroying it...... and not that the fuel pump relay is on the prime list of candidates just yet..........

 

[HawkWing]

OK, here's my plan of action for this weekend:Check battery connections- where? @ battery are confirmed good. will check ground to frame. where else?

Side stand- inspect closely for operation/mechanical issues, inspect connector to harness.

Kill switch- check for sensitivity, connector.

Air filter- inspect/clean.

ECU connector- inspect/reconnect.

Ignition switch- not sure what to look for.

Tank vent- confirmed OK.

Then take her out for 100 or so miles and see what happens.

Report back here.

Anything else to look for at this point? Any thoughts about troubleshooting the TPS?

Detached, cleaned, reassembled main ground to lower right portion of frame; looked OK. (Battery/connections good; ground spiders serviced/RR's fix installed sometime early in 2012 other connections unchecked.

Took a close look at side stand/switch. Everything tight and operating properly there; return spring strong.

Kill switch works fine. Jiggled wiring & mechanism with engine running.

Air filter was in good shape; blew it out and reused.

ECU connector detached/visually inspected/reconnected; looked fine.

Ignition switch: jiggled wiring with engine running; works fine.

Didn't get a look at the fuel pump wiring yet, but will have a look ASAP.

Visually inspected wiring under right side panel while I had it off checking main ground; didn't see anything that looked suspicious.

Drove a 50 mile stretch at interstate speeds. including a few at 100+mph; couldn't get prob to occur; but I suspect nothing has changed, cause I didn't find anything amiss with the above stuff.

Based on the above, can we eliminate these items as possible causes?

From Ion's comments about TPS, I now tend to discount a problem there. The prob is not consistent; I can't recreate it by holding throttle in the position at which I know the prob occurs.

Ion, when you mention the tranny jumping in/out of gear: I don't think this is the prob, because I hear the engine go quiet, not rev up. Power will also resume on its own, without any action on my part- clutch, throttle, shifter; although I often have to downshift and vary throttle to get it to repower up.

Ray, I think you are right on the money about more clearly defining the conditions and symptoms leading up to/during the shutdown. I will make an effort to take the bike out for a more extensive test ride. Thing is, don't want to get stranded alone; I'd much rather have a bud along for assistance if needed. I'll work on getting something together, make a serious attempt to recreate the prob, make some more enlightened observations, and report back.

 

[Donal]

Interesting discussion here about intermittent problems which appear to have been solved by installing a new (Yuasa) battery.

What sort of battery do you have fitted? How old is it?

Note: from the linked post it doesn't seem to matter if the current battery tests out OK. If you are having intermittent electrical problems consider fitting a GOOD QUALITY battery.............

 

[RossKean]

I don't think you can eliminate anything based on the things you checked. You may have inadvertently "fixed" it (at least temporarily). An intermittent fault, as you have described, may not have an obvious cause. The problem may have gone away but could return and get worse and could still be any of the things you have already considered. Sidestand switch, kill switch and ignition switch still seem to be pretty good candidates, at least to me. I would make sure you carry a DVM with you so you may be able to scope out the issue while it is actually happening. Until you get to the bottom of it, you will always be waiting for a failure on the road and will be hypersensitive to every burble and hiccup in the normal operation of the bike. Good luck.!

 

[ionbeam]

Interesting discussion here about intermittent problems which appear to have been solved by installing a new (Yuasa) battery...Note: from the linked post it doesn't seem to matter if the current battery tests out OK. If you are having intermittent electrical problems consider fitting a GOOD QUALITY battery.............

Well, I've learned something from these two threads, batteries are magical and the root cause of all evil, plus they are devious in the way they can spoof technicians and test good while plotting insidious failures.

 

[RaYzerman19]

To eliminate battery, ensure it is charged and take it to a place for a load test (usually done for free). Resting voltage should be minimum 12.8 or higher at rest before you turn on the key or attempt start. Voltage shouldn't drop approx. below 11 while cranking. Load test will confirm.

Problem may be coincidental to 4000-5000 because that just happens to be where you're cruising most of the time. But, more vibration occurs in that range, and obviously bike is up to operating temp for long enough to get everything hot under the hood... bike quits due to intermittent ignition or fuel, whether physical switch issue or breakdown at certain heat/vibration.

Have you checked ground spiders, which after a period could have heated up and degraded if corroded... left front by glovebox/left turn signal sees more water than the rest, check also in top of engine compartment (I think 3 there) but left one has been subject of discussion.

Ignition cutoff could be failing ignition switch, wiggle in on position (up/down/sideways while turning against detents). If intermittent, gauges will sweep, fuel pump relay clicks, fuel pump recycles for a couple of seconds. When problem occurs, do gauges sweep? Would explain a delay in restarting. After the gauge/fuel pump cycle, restart should occur with starter switch or as you've been doing, down shift and bump start. Which is why I asked if it will simply resume running if all you do is pull the clutch in (which is a whole other scenario).

Lets check all this more obvious stuff first, lots of things it could be, but these are the more likely. When problem occurs, was it when you hit a bump or smooth cruising?

 

[ionbeam]

It is somewhat telling that the clock and odometer don't reset. Anything above this reset voltage should keep the coils lit and the fuel pump pumping. The ECU monitors the voltage at the fuel injectors. I can confirm that my Gen 1 will run with coil voltages a tick below 9.0 volts.

 

[Harald]

Took a close look at side stand/switch. Everything tight and operating properly there; return spring strong.

My 07 recently died while pulling into work after a 30 minute ride. After some dinking around (I like to use highly technical terms

) including cycling the sidestand, I was able to restart and ride the last 50 yards and park. I had the bike die on me once a while back as soon as I put it in gear and had suspected maybe the sidestand wasn't all the way up, but with this latest failure I went straight to the sidestand switch.

I pulled the sidestand assy and then removed the switch off the backside. I traced the wiring up under the tank and gave a little tug, which revealed the connector for easy removal off the bike. On my bench with an ANALOG ohm meter hooked up to the wires, I was able to carefully move the plunger in and out and around and cause a failure (high resistance with the plunger relaxed). This type of testing must be done with an analog meter because it instantly responds to flakey connections. The plunger spring was nice and strong,but obviously there was crud inside that was preventing the contacts from making.

On Gen II's, the switch cannot be disassembled unless you want to dig out the potting and expose innards. So with nothing to lose, I tossed the switch in an ultrasonic cleaner for an hour. Then for good measure, I shot contact cleaner up the plunger shaft while moving the plunger up and down. I finished with compressed air to dry things before testing. Tests results show a "good as new" switch and it even looks like new after the ultrasonic cleaning!

BTW, you can eliminate this switch from your bikes circuit by unplugging it and then shorting the bike side connector with a female spade terminal. The only caveat here is that you can now ride off with the sidestand down and kill yourself in the first left turn, so be careful.

 

[RichDoyle]

It is somewhat telling that the clock and odometer don't reset. Anything above this reset voltage should keep the coils lit and the fuel pump pumping. The ECU monitors the voltage at the fuel injectors. I can confirm that my Gen 1 will run with coil voltages a tick below 9.0 volts.

Just a comment on this. Though it may be relevant only to Gen III, I disconnected my battery in the process of installing a SAE cable for purposes of powering a slime and battery tender (should I ever need to). Nothing in the instruments reset. So apparently there is a capacitor or some such thing in the instrument cluster to ride through voltage dips of some short duration.

 

[HawkWing]

Donal: What sort of battery do you have fitted? How old is it?

Just installed a Motobatt brand AGM less than a month ago. Also have a voltmeter- (connected through fuzeblock under seat), which indicates resting voltage @ 12.3v, and starting voltage @ 10.xv. Will get a better reading directly off battery ASAP.

RossKean: I don't think you can eliminate anything based on the things you checked. I agree completely, based on your reasoning. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Sidestand switch, kill switch and ignition switch still seem to be pretty good candidates, at least to me. +1

I would make sure you carry a DVM with you so you may be able to scope out the issue while it is actually happening. Will do, great advice.

RayZ: To eliminate battery, ensure it is charged and take it to a place for a load test. More helpful stuff; will get it done.

Problem may be coincidental to 4000-5000 because that just happens to be where you're cruising most of the time. This is, indeed, where I spend most of my cruising time. Prob has occurred at (slightly) lower and higher RPM's.

bike is up to operating temp for long enough to get everything hot under the hood... bike quits due to intermittent ignition or fuel. This seems to me to be the basic cause of the prob, but there is some related trigger for loss of ignition or fuel.

Have you checked ground spiders? Been almost 2 years ago. At the time I inspected them, they were pristine. Lubed with dielectric grease, and installed RoadRunner's headlamp/rad fan shunt. Do they need another look? I assume so.

Ignition cutoff could be failing ignition switch, wiggle in on position (up/down/sideways while turning against detents). Have not done this, but will look for gauge sweep/flicker/fluctuations, after bike has reached operating temp.

When problem occurs, do gauges sweep? I don't think so, but I honestly cannot say this for sure; most occurrences are so transient that I don't see any gauge hiccups. On the longer events, all have occurred at interstate speeds, and I haven't noticed (too concerned with staying alive to pay attention, + they always happen when least expected, + now I know the importance of gauge observation.) This will be a major priority for future events.

will it simply resume running if all you do is pull the clutch in? No. It will usually resume if I do nothing. Or, if not, after I have downshifted and released clutch (bump started).

When problem occurs, was it when you hit a bump or smooth cruising? Always smooth, even, level, straight-line cruising; never on bumps, curves, hills.

Ion: It is somewhat telling that the clock and odometer don't reset. Anything above this reset voltage should keep the coils lit and the fuel pump pumping. So, could this indicate a localized voltage drop near the fuel pump or coil, something which wouldn't show up on the gauges (more widespread voltage drop) during an event? I don't think (not sure) that the gauges sweep even during longer duration events, and I'm sure they don't during the transient occurrences. Clock and tripmeter do not reset during any event.

Harald: On my bench with an ANALOG ohm meter hooked up to the side stand switch, I was able to carefully move the plunger in and out and around and cause a failure. Will bench test SS switch per your instructions; good thoughts on cleaning, etc.

BTW, you can eliminate this switch from your bikes circuit by unplugging it and then shorting the bike side connector with a female spade terminal. Would eliminate a bad switch in emergencies; caveat duly noted.

RichDoyle: Though it may be relevant only to Gen III, I disconnected my battery; nothing in the instruments reset. Mine (Gen II) did reset during recent battery replacement.

OK, looks like I have a number of ideas, advice to consider. Stay tuned; give me a little while to make some progress. Thanks again, and please send along any other thoughts.

 

[ionbeam]

It is somewhat telling that the clock and odometer don't reset. Anything above this reset voltage should keep the coils lit and the fuel pump pumping. The ECU monitors the voltage at the fuel injectors. I can confirm that my Gen 1 will run with coil voltages a tick below 9.0 volts.

Just a comment on this. Though it may be relevant only to Gen III, I disconnected my battery in the process of installing a SAE cable for purposes of powering a slime and battery tender (should I ever need to). Nothing in the instruments reset. So apparently there is a capacitor or some such thing in the instrument cluster to ride through voltage dips of some short duration.

That is indeed something new for the new FJRs! Another new 'feature' to add to the list for the Gen III. In all previous Gen's even a momentary dip or dropout of battery voltage would reset the clock and trip odometers. Yamaha may have added a holdup capacitor, or they may have a battery backup. Now we just need to know how long it holds up the clock To the nearest microsecond will be fine. Given the tiny current the circuit draws it would be easy to hold up the display values for a long time.

 

[ionbeam]

Ion: It is somewhat telling that the clock and odometer don't reset. Anything above this reset voltage should keep the coils lit and the fuel pump pumping. So, could this indicate a localized voltage drop near the fuel pump or coil, something which wouldn't show up on the gauges (more widespread voltage drop) during an event? I don't think (not sure) that the gauges sweep even during longer duration events, and I'm sure they don't during the transient occurrences. Clock and tripmeter do not reset during any event.

If your problem was caused by any loose connections associated with the battery on a Gen I or Gen II the clock and trip odometer would reset. Once power from the possibly intermittent battery is restored, as long as the key is ON, the gauges would sweep, then show proper readings. Since they do not reset and the gauges do not sweep, the battery and battery connections are exonerated.

If there was a localized voltage problem there should be an error code stored in the ECU which you can read via diAG.

 

[Donal]

Donal: What sort of battery do you have fitted? How old is it?Just installed a Motobatt brand AGM less than a month ago. Also have a voltmeter- (connected through fuzeblock under seat), which indicates resting voltage @ 12.3v, and starting voltage @ 10.xv. Will get a better reading directly off battery ASAP.

I also have a Motobatt. Never had any problems with it but there have been a number of reports on here of failed Motobatts. I have no real idea why a battery would produce your symptoms but as reported on the other thread it appears to have a malign influence............

I can only assume that a good battery will act like a capacitor and 'smooth out' the output from the alternator/RR and also absorb any 'spikes generated by any inductive devices switching on/off. Again not sure how a bad battery will act. If it is starting the engine normally, that would indicate low internal resistance (a good thing) and you would expect that it would absorb any fluctuations while riding.

I will continue to watch both of these threads with interest........................

 

[lnewlf]

Resting voltage of 12.3? Generally anything under 12.7 is junk...

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, that depends on his definition of "resting." If that is with the key off and measured at the battery, and the charging voltage is sufficient when the bike is running, I would agree that battery is toast. But if the 12.3V is with the key on (some folks have their panel voltmeters only come on with the key) the battery may be fine.

As for the trip-meter and clock resetting on low voltage condition, especially when starting with a weak battery, I have come to appreciate that as a very valuable tell-tale feature of our first and second gen FJRs. It lets you know that it is time to go battery shopping before it leaves you stranded on the side of the road somewhere in BFE.

 

[ionbeam]

Resting voltage of 12.3? Generally anything under 12.7 is junk...

PHD - Piled Higher & Deeper. To add to Fred's reply -- the reading was taken at a fuse block, not the battery. The battery voltage has to be read at the battery terminals to be meaningful. To turn Fred's words a tiny bit, finding 12.3 volts at the battery terminals may be an indication of a charging problem, farkles drawing too much power thereby not letting the battery fully charge or because of the bike has been sitting for more than a week or two. Definitely check the charging voltage from the FJR's electrical system. If that looks good I would suggest (YMMV) that you remove the cables from the battery and charge it over night, remove the cables the next day, let the battery stand at least 20-30 minutes then check the battery voltage. If it reads <12.7 volts the battery is on its way out, gamble if you are brave or replace ASAP.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Professor Ionbeam, according to the joke it's MS (more of the same) before PHD...... so here we go. I'll agree with Fred, if you have a digital Datel style voltmeter that comes on with ignition, voltage will be with running lights on, etc... Fired mine up this morning after a couple of days on the tender, when key first on, 12.7. When cranking, voltmeter spikes around so hard to get a meaningful reading while cranking..... I saw 10's and 11's flashing...... my battery is a brand new Yuasa in September. My last one was the original OEM which we'll say lasted 6 years, with some unintended abuse in the last 6 months. It was showing a little weakness, but still OK..... 6 years, time for a new one.

What we're looking for is a battery that has not developed any cracks in the bus bars that connect all the cells and posts, which could cause a momentary off/on, and explain an "ignition cycle". The only good way to find out if the battery is at fault IMHO is a load test. Cracks or weak points will/should be readily apparent under load.

A generally weak battery with no intermittent faults shouldn't cause the problem (??) as long as the voltage is mid-upper 12's, just has less reserve capacity and may not start the bike when cold, etc.

OTOH, what causes an engine shutdown without the gauges sweeping (if that happened)....... most obviously, sidestand switch or kill switch or flaky fuel pump relay.... don't know how low a battery has to be to accomplish same before gauges sweep.......... I would think deterioration in voltage though would be noticed on a Datel. Example, if I run a full compliment of heated gear (just me) voltage shows 13.2 above 2500 rpm. Into the 12's if two sets of gear. No loads is 14+.

 

[HawkWing]

OK, removed new Motobatt battery and checked voltage at terminals: 13v, versus old Yuasa (charged): 12.7v (still works, but unreliable- I have put it in a lawnmower).

Had bat load tested at Autozone- tested good with tester set at 140 cca.

Reinstalled bat & rode 20 mi.- no bads, but that don't mean squat. This was strange: during bat install, when I first connected terminals, gauges swept and LCD flickered WITH NO KEY IN IGNITION.

Based on what I've read here and actions I've taken, I am confident the battery and main connections are good. . . . right?

Next actions I think would be prudent: have a look under tank at fuel pump connections and accessible spiders, then wiggle ignition switch per RayZ instructions, then tinker with sidestand switch per Harald's instructions. Maybe temporarily short SS switch (if suspect) to totally eliminate it, then give it a really good (100 mi+) ride at highway speed & see what gives. Does this sound OK, or not? Still not sure about disassembling ignition and kill switches at this point, but could be in the cards if other actions don't pan out . . . one thing at a time, right?

Ion: If there was a localized voltage problem there should be an error code stored in the ECU which you can read via diAG. will check for codes first thing tomorrow, before doing anything else.

Donal: If it is starting the engine normally, that would indicate low internal resistance (a good thing). New bat cranks and starts it like a champ; five-year-old OEM still worked, but not so much in the cold.

I also have a Motobatt. Never had any problems with it but there have been a number of reports on here of failed Motobatts. On arrival mine needed significant charge time on the Optimate to get it up to snuff. Seems fine now.

Fred: But if the 12.3V is with the key on (some folks have their panel voltmeters only come on with the key) the battery may be fine. The 12.3v value IS indeed with key on, thru fuzeblock. Actual voltage at disconnected terminals as measured by Datel, Simpson analog vm, and cheapo HF freebie was consistent: 13v.

Ion: Definitely check the charging voltage from the FJR's electrical system. Datel (thru fuzeblock) shows 13.8-13.9v @ > 1500 rpm. I assume this value would be higher @ terminals. Values during warmup spike @ 14.1v.; during cranking- 10.Xv range.

If bat voltage reads <12.7 volts the battery is on its way out, gamble if you are brave or replace ASAP. My OEM was reading 12.7v, & was showing signs of weakness.

RayZ: I'll agree with Fred, if you have a digital Datel style voltmeter that comes on with ignition, voltage will be with running lights on, etc... Fired mine up this morning after a couple of days on the tender, when key first on, 12.7. When cranking, voltmeter spikes around so hard to get a meaningful reading while cranking..... I saw 10's and 11's flashing... My observations are exactly the same with my Datel setup.

I'll get back tomorrow with results of observations under the tank and diAG.

 

[Fred W]

This was strange: during bat install, when I first connected terminals, gauges swept and LCD flickered WITH NO KEY IN IGNITION.

That is 100% normal. Happens every time you reconnect the battery.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I'll declare battery eliminated as a cause. But, I would now proceed with one or two things at a time. Maybe it's fixed, maybe it's not.

Ignition switch - if you are a commuter, for example, you've used your ignition switch (wild guess, 45 weeks X 5 days X 2 times per day X 4 years) ~1800 cycles, whereas I'll guess I've used mine 2/3 of that. Not that they aren't robust... IIRC, the '06-'07 switches had the recall? I would wiggle test only at this point, not disassemble.

Ground spiders - You cleaned and greased..... probably still OK, but worth a check.

I would say next, just ride and see if you get another event. When that event occurs, immediately check if gauges are sweeping. If so, fuel pump is recycling and it takes time, may explain why there is a delay in restarting via your method of downshifting. However, I would just pull the clutch in, no throttle and coast until engine stops, verify gauges stopped sweeping by that time, and hit starter without cycling ignition. It has always restarted, no reason to think it won't. Hit starter again if you need to. If by now you're stopped, cycle ignition (gauges sweep, listen for fuel pump recycle) and retry. No start still, cycle kill switch, retry. No start, cycle side stand, retry.

To the OP, Paulo, what has happened on your events, how did you restart, what attempted fixes have you done, etc.