Is Ethanol "Losing Its Clout"?

[CAJW]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="RichDoyle" data-cid="1108624" data-time="1385415508"><p>

There should be a drop in mileage using an alcohol blend, but it's hard to know how much is in something you buy at the pump.</p></blockquote>

My personal experience with a 2007 Chevy P/U was a 25% reduction in gas mileage running E15. Worked out to looking for E15 costing at least 25% less than regular gas, just to break even. Prices locally rarely got close to that so I gave up on Ethanol, but have never considered using it in the FJR. New trucks are easy to find, new Gen I FJR's, not so much.

 

[fljab]

I run non-ethanol in my FJR when I'm someplace it's available - usually out someplace away from home. While I don't keep detailed records, I do know the mileage marks of when I pump the aux in, get the blinking fuel bar, & how far the tank lasts for the most part, and I seem to always do better on the non-ethanol stuff.

I know one time this summer out west someplace, it was ~30 cents higher per gallon to run it.

I couldn't tell you what it does or does not do to the inside of the engine. I run what's available - one of the great things about a FJR is they are pretty much bullet proof. If running ethanol blends means I'll get only 200K miles vs 250K, then that's the risk I'll have to take........

 

[someguy]

i would be very happy to see it go away, or be a regular option to buy regular gas vs corn.

i have watched it destroy many many fuel systems in small engines or any engine that is not regularly run.

i agree that if it's routinely run, like a car or bike, it's not as bad, and the modern vehicles seem to have less trouble

that said, my machines all get real gas. I have on unfortunate occasion had no choice but to run green gas in the FJR, but burned it off as fast as possible.

with ethanol, i see and feel little performance in the FJR, but oddly i notice it in my truck and see it in fuel efficiency.

generators/tractors/boats/chainsaws,etc all suffer from alcohol abuse. Additionally, older fuel lines/gaskets etc fall apart when soaked in ethanol for more than a few seasons

i have had very limited success with stabil and do not use it any more for any type of long term storage.

I have had excellent success with StarTron with regard to phase separation (this is what ethanol does when it sits in your tank) and nearly unbelievable results with a product called PRI-G (12 year gasoline storage test)

I highly recommend them both for anything that is not routinely run or is stored with fuel in the system.

 

[pista]

I would like to see ethanol-free gasoline available to everyone. Mostly for storage where alcohol in fuel could present a problem over time. The only advantage I see is ethanol does burn cleaner than gasoline.

Here in Northeast Ohio, straight gasoline can only be purchased as "recreational fuel" found usually at marina's. It is relatively expensive. Boaters often have trouble with alcohol actually damaging fuel tanks and or problems related to moisture because ethanol is hydroscopic and attracts water.

For us motorcyclists, fuel economy suffers with the addition of alcohol because it contains less energy (btu's) per gallon than gasoline. It isn't a significant amount when blended at 10%, but it does add up.

Fun fact: alcohol has a very high octane rating. This allows sub-octane gas (84 octane I believe) to be brought up to 87 octane when blended with 10% ethanol.

 

[DennisJ]

I'll be filling the fuel tank and adding Stabil as soon as I get all the plastics back on and make sure I don't have any extra fasteners. It has taken me some time to complete the installation of the Hella FF50 driving lights and the Eastern Beaver PC-8. Few complications resulting from my daily winter driver eating the #3 cylinder and, from the heavy mechanical noises, some other parts also. Researched, found and purchased another vehicle and just finished transferring insurance, GoodtoGo pass, Registration and all the rest of the stuff. Not working Friday except on the FJR and will have it finished. It's been too cold for me to ride to work at 6AM anyway but I could have done without needing to obtain a new car.

 

[Niehart]

Seems to be less of a problem in fuel injected engines. Maybe because of less access to air ...

I know from experience that it sucks in small carburetor engines.

I threatened to kick my neighbor's butt if brought his generator over one more time. I told him to put straight gas in the damn thing and start it up every three months. Little Star Tron wouldn't hurt either. Has he done either, I doubt it ...

 

[Denver_FJR]

I was out chainsaw shopping today and every place I went told me very specifically that I would need to plan on running 91 octane due to ethanol in the lower blends.

Be careful, ethanol is an octane booster and most premium pump gas has higher ethanol content.

...I can't think of one person who thinks E15 is a good idea.

Go talk to a hotrodder. Not just E10 or E15, but E85, they love the stuff. The high octane allows them to increase compression beyond what they could on unadulterated gasoline.

My own anecdotal experience is also the FJR tolerates E10 well. I recently had the injectors out and they were pristine (25k), which I credit to the ethanol.

 

[juniorfjr]

I have no problem running it in the cars, bike or boat. But have had to replace the carberator twice on the Honda lawnmower and rebuild the carb on the husquavarna weed wacker. My last pickup was an 08 and was made to run on e 85 but its not available here so never gave it a try.

 

[BigOgre]

I've owned a trusty 18" chainsaw for several years now which I use around the yard at least once a year. Last used after Sandy but I think I also used it this Spring. Has never let me down - - until two weeks ago. Went to check the fuel level and couldn't get the plastic cap off as it had swollen inside the case. Never had a problem before, it always spun off and on real easy. Once off, the treads and all looked deteriorated yet the top/outside part looked brand new. I have no doubt it was the Ethanol that got it. I'm pretty good with treating all my fuel but it's possible I missed that can of mix. Also sorry I left some fuel in the machine too, treated or not. Of course parts are discontinued for this model so I've been searching on-line and hitting every small engine shop I pass for another cap but I'm also wondering what else got damaged internally. One mistake and all those years of taking care of it down the drain.

I'm of the belief that it's the down time that'll hurt you. On my bikes, the longest any of them sit before getting fresh fuel is about four months and they'll get treated regularly just before then. So far, thankfully, never had any fuel related issues in that regard.

 

[DrWing]

No problems for me so far. All the pumps in my area say E10. But who check?

 

[Greg 03]

I was out chainsaw shopping today and every place I went told me very specifically that I would need to plan on running 91 octane due to ethanol in the lower blends.

I'm not sure that's a foolproof method.

At least where I live at almost all the normal fuel stations....all the octanes including 91 & 92 have ethanol. It's only at a couple of Conocos that they have mostly regular pumps (yes, 3 islands have 91 with up to 10% ethanol) and a special pump near the back that has 92 non-ethanol specially tagged....for about a $0.30 more a gallon.

https://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/laws/MO/tech/3252

Missouri doesn't require ethanol in premium so most stations don't have it in 91 or above.

 

[escapefjrtist]

Lucky to have Ethanol free gas less than 10 miles from the house. I fill up all the yard equipment and generator with the good stuff since there's a lot of idle time with them. My old '70 Jimmy is used less than I'd like, and suffers from fuel induced problems more often than not. I'm getting pretty good at pulling the Carter AFB and cleaning the mud out...

FJR wise, whenever I'm close to good gas I'll use it. Otherwise I just keep the fuel cycling through...

--G

 

[GPRIDER]

Never had a problem in either one of my FJRs, but my 95 vmax has clogged up twice. Found an easy way to clean the jets out without removing the carbs, so it's not pricey to fix it. Not any ethanol free gas around Dallas. You have to drive out of county to find it. A friend of mine that owns a marina on a lake south of Abilene told me he used to sell non ethanol gas there and the gubment finally told he had to sell e10. No choice.

GP

 

[garyahouse]

...he used to sell non ethanol gas there and the gubment finally told he had to sell e10. No choice.

...and that's what the 'Zilla's article was all about... that the government might be reconsidering what it is forcing states to do. Could the federal government be reconsidering its policy on ethanol mandates? I for one am glad to see that maybe the pendulum (of future government mandates to increase required levels of ethanol) might be considering swinging the other way.

Maybe, just maybe...

Most of us only have to deal with E10. But who hasn't worried that mandated E15 was the next step; and who knows beyond that? I'm REALLY glad to hear that maybe, just maybe, E10 could be the worst that we'll be forced to deal with, and maybe future mandates could allow for even lower percentages. Let's hope so. With a little luck, wouldn't it be refreshing if retailers could sell both ethanol and straight gasoline if they chose? Fine: maybe they'd want to charge a little more money. I'd certainly be willing to pay a little extra for genuine GOjuice.

Gary

darksider #44

 

[BkerChuck]

As much as possible I will run non-ethanol fuel in all of the bikes in our garage. The FJR seems to tolerate ethanlol the best as the 3 other bikes are still carbs. I was told while restoring the '77 Honda CB400F to avoid ethanol like the plague. Tanks back then had no coatings applied to the inside and rusting is a huge problem in a bike that's ridden only occasionally. My '95Buell and the wifes '97 Harley run substantially better on non ethanol fuels. In her bike it pings less, premium all the time, and her fuel mileage goes up by at least 10%.

I have a shop near my home that restores vintage Indian motorcycles. One of the owners there showed me an article in American Motorcyclist magazine from the 1940's that talked about the perils of ethanol in gas! Our government has known for more than 70 years that this is not a goood idea and yet continues to force upon us something we don't want.

 

[Old Guy]

I've owned a trusty 18" chainsaw for several years now which I use around the yard at least once a year. Last used after Sandy but I think I also used it this Spring. Has never let me down - - until two weeks ago. Went to check the fuel level and couldn't get the plastic cap off as it had swollen inside the case. Never had a problem before, it always spun off and on real easy. Once off, the treads and all looked deteriorated yet the top/outside part looked brand new. I have no doubt it was the Ethanol that got it. I'm pretty good with treating all my fuel but it's possible I missed that can of mix. Also sorry I left some fuel in the machine too, treated or not. Of course parts are discontinued for this model so I've been searching on-line and hitting every small engine shop I pass for another cap but I'm also wondering what else got damaged internally. One mistake and all those years of taking care of it down the drain.
I'm of the belief that it's the down time that'll hurt you. On my bikes, the longest any of them sit before getting fresh fuel is about four months and they'll get treated regularly just before then. So far, thankfully, never had any fuel related issues in that regard.

If it's something that sees very infrequent use -- particularly two-strokes -- I drain the tank and run it until it stops. My pressure washer and generator have petcocks, so I just turn off the fuel and let them run until they stop. I also use Stabil in all the gas I store in cans. So far, so good.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I agree with Gary.... if there was a choice on non-E10, I'd feel a lot better. I've read a fair bit about ethanol, not that I'm an expert, but when you consider the big picture, it's simply not logical to have E10, but politically it is. We wouldn't have gone there if the subsidies and tax breaks weren't handed out. To me, it does not make economic sense either, as it costs as much to produce it as it's worth (I've read it costs more than that, although price increases may have levelled the field these days).

Fuel mileage studies have shown E-10 fuels get 11-14% less mileage....... that alone means the imports of oil have not gone down because of E10. That and the cost of the stuff itself and costs to the food chain, to me, means it should go away, or at least give us a choice on non-E10 at the pumps. And with the damages caused by E10, what is the real cost to the economy in repairs?

Ethanol is very corrosive. I came from the auto industry, and back when E-85 came along, the automakers had to design fuel lines that didn't corrode, rubber parts that wouldn't break down (the small engine and marine industry is only getting there now). E10 is bad enough, I hope we never see E15.

To be FJR or bike specific, I don't think it's coincidental that I read more threads about phase separation/water in gas, crud build-up on throttle plates and valves/sticking valves with goop on the stems, crud coming from gas tanks (ethanol will loosen gum and sludges in gas tanks, but it doesn't dissolve them, need naptha Seafoam, etc. for that). The damage occurs slowly, that's why most don't notice.

Anyway, I'd just hope the powers that be could put aside the politics and thoroughly/objectively/factually assess the real cost of E10. Meanwhile, having a choice at the pumps would be a good start.

 

[Fred W]

Fuel mileage studies have shown E-10 fuels get 11-14% less mileage....... that alone means the imports of oil have not gone down because of E10.

For fuel with 10% ethanol to lose 10 percent (or more) mileage would mean that it has no energy value at all. This simply isn't the case. Ethanol has about 1/3 less energy value than regular gasoline, so an E10 fuel blend will deliver about 3 - 4% worse fuel economy than straight gasoline.

 

[MCRIDER007]

Fuel mileage studies have shown E-10 fuels get 11-14% less mileage....... that alone means the imports of oil have not gone down because of E10.

For fuel with 10% ethanol to lose 10 percent (or more) mileage would mean that it has no energy value at all. This simply isn't the case. Ethanol has about 1/3 less energy value than regular gasoline, so an E10 fuel blend will deliver about 3 - 4% worse fuel economy than straight gasoline.

Agree. I have met riders who swear that they get 15 percent less mileage because of ethanol and that premium gives 10 percent better mileage than regular. They also rely on their bike's computer to determine mileage because they don't know how to calculate it manually.

 

[Fred W]

I think that claims like these probably come from people that do not realize how much their fuel mileage can and does vary due to all of the other factors that effect it. They assign the entire observed variation on the ethanol when it was probably (also) one of a thousand other possible things that changed in the same period.

For instance, I know that my FJR mileage dips in these wintery months, and I know that some amount of that decrease is due to the change in fuel blends. I see the change as a need to refuel the bike earlier and a decrease in tank range and calculated mpg (1st gens don't have it on their instruments) But there are multiple other factors involved. For one thing, it is cold and the air is more dense in the cold weather. For another I usually install a larger windshield to keep that cold air off of me. So yeah, my mileage suffers by ~10 percent at this time of year, but it isn't all due to the fuel.

One advantage of ethanol is that it does raise the octane rating of the fuel. If one were to also increase the effective compression ratio of the engine a commensurate amount you would be able to get nearly the same fuel mileage out of the ethanol fuel as straight gasoline even though it does have a lower energy content per unit volume.

Of course since naturally aspirated engines do not have variable compression ratios (unlike turbo or super charged engines) and you cannot dynamically adjust the compression ratio on the fly, you are stuck with running the fuel octane rating the engine was designed for. A normally aspirated engine with very high compression designed to maximize the energy available in 113 octane straight ethanol fuel could not run standard gasolines (with a 93 or lower octane rating) without destructive amounts of detonation.