Is Ethanol "Losing Its Clout"?

[Bugnatr]

It's very difficult to address this question and not get mired in politics, even in Canada.
My short answer is "I hope so.Bad idea from the start."

+1!

 

[dcarver]

Iggie, thanks for the .22 and not 10 gauge.

 

[TomInPA]

Zilla, I have a general dislike for ethanol in fuel, mostly because I don't buy the "renewable fuel" aspect for something that is basically a farm subsidy. The thread has been fair in terms of dispelling claims that fuel economy and engine damage It's hard to find non-ethanol E-10 fuel but I really hope we can head off the E-15. I think that is really what triggered this discussion.,

 

[Redfish Hunter]

Ignacio, thanks for your efforts to keep this thread open. It is an excellent discussion but it does come close to crossing some of our rules. FWIW, even though it has been a loooong time since I got one, the private warning I received way back when was done in a very smooth and classy way. I appreciated how it was handled at the time and still do.

While I strongly dislike the ethanol in my gasoline, I have studied with great interest and anticipation the improvements in Bio-Diesel. I would love to see a viable, renewable source of that stuff.

 

[John d]

Ethanol in gas is an issue that in my part of Canada that has been addressed by Shell Canada. As far as I know, a fuel company such as Shell must sell a certain percentage of ethanol in relation to the total volume of fuel sold. How to distribute this ethanol between the various blends (regular- Bronze, mid-grade - Silver, and V-power premium) is left up to them. Shell sells their premium product (V-power) with no ethanol in it, at least in my part of Canada.

I have seen this on their pumps a number of times, but was wondering if that was old information, left on the pumps. Today I decided to set the bike up for winter, or at least make sure there was Stabil in a full tank of gas, in case I don't ride until spring (March). I headed out to a brand new station in Kitchener ON, and there is was again, on the pumps, V-power gas contains no ethanol. I filled up at $5.05/gal USD or $1.40/litre CAD.

At least one company is doing something for the consumer. I don't know of any other fuel company in Canada that offers this. I wouldn't use this gas any other time, because premium isn't required for the FJR, but for putting the bike up for winter, it's acceptable.

 

[Nanahanman]

Thanks for that info John.

I was curious about Shell as there is a station at the end of my street.

The extra cost to run the "premium" fuel isn't a problem with the bikes.

And it "cleans" with nitrogen ...

From this Shell Canada website. FAQ

https://www.shell.ca/en/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/shell-vpower.html

• Shell V-Power premium gasoline in Canada does not contain ethanol.

 

[RaYzerman19]

You have to love marketing.... Shell says "Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System". Nitrogen won't exist long as a liquid unless it's contents are under pressure, it condenses at -195C or -320F. So it must be some kind of nitrogen compound instead. I guess that must be "enriched". It could be lots of things, nitrous oxide, nitromethane, etc. They also say they have 5 times the cleaning agents required by government standards...... Costco (US) makes the same claim. All additives are regulated by the EPA.

But there is a program called Top Tier Gas, have a read

Let's go back a few years... some fuel companies actually reduced cleaning agents. Remember when Shell gas would foul up the fuel sending units of certain car brands? They paid for a lot of repairs, and the auto companies had to improve their sending units....... here we are marketing a new reputation IMHO.

The main thing though, is that ethanol free stuff. Shell stations aren't too populous around here.... I did see a sign at a discount US gas station (Niagara Falls, NY) that said "Ethanol free 91 Octane available". Couldn't find it at any of the many pumps at that station........ love marketing.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Some light reading...... you form your own opinions......

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/energy-solutions/ethanol-under-fire

 

[Fred W]

Good link. Seems to capture some of the more pragmatic facts pretty well. It is, and has always been, a bad idea. But when there is inertia like this behind a particular idea it is always hard to slow down, never mind stop. Usually the best way to divert public opinion about a bad idea like this is to come up with a preferable solution, of which there currently does not seem to be one.

 

[RaYzerman19]

Apparently both Shell and Esso here have ethanol-free 91..... none of their websites say so, nor does Shell's site work for a station locator...... and then I dug this up from a published speech by the Esso Canada CEO at the 2010 annual meeting..... small excerpt......

"Some facts on water use in our industry. Today, it takes between 2 and 6 gallons of water to produce 1 gallon of refined gasoline from oil sands. This is about the same amount of water needed to produce and refine from conventional oil production. By comparison, it takes an average of 100 gallons of water to produce a gallon of corn ethanol in the United States. Cellulosic ethanol will require about 10 gallons of water. To put the energy industry’s use of water into proper context, it takes two and a half gallons of water to produce a single sheet of paper. And a cup of coffee can take as much as 36 gallons of water."

BTW, cellulosic ethanol is made from cornstalks and other parts, not the corn seed itself, but this segment hasn't gained much momentum.....

 

[HotRodZilla]

Crap!! I've been saying it for years. The ever growing human population is going to create food and water shortages before we ever run out of oil.

2.5 gallons of water for a single sheet of paper?? Holy Hell, those numbers are astounding!

 

[Fred W]

How do you "use" the water? What happens to it after it is used? Is it no longer water?

 

[Old Guy]

How do you "use" the water? What happens to it after it is used? Is it no longer water?

My thoughts as well.

 

[RossKean]

The water that is used in paper making (or agriculture) is easily turned back into water that is useful for other purposes. The water from tar sands bitumen extraction is a little less user friendly at the ***-end of the operation.

 

[ionbeam]

[Friday Drift]

Water can be entrained and delayed being returned to the environment, like combining with alcohol and grain flavors to produce adult beverages. How can this not be good?

Water can be contaminated and discharged while being unsuitable for biological use. BAD

Water can be contaminated and recycled within a closed loop, perhaps only needing only small 'make-up' additions. GOOD

Water can be vaporized, but it will return to a pure liquid (or solid) state.

Even when water is broken apart into the fundamental components of hydrogen and oxygen the components will recombine into pure water. GOOD

So, I guess the real way of determining how a process handles water is by determined by the condition of the water at the end of use. Radioactive, chemical and oil contaminated is not good as the water is used up until cleaned. Other processes return water to an acceptable state through simple filtering and processing.

[/Friday Drift]

Edit: I see that Ross posted basically the same thing while I was typing

 

[Fred W]

My point exactly. I remember sometime back in grammar school being struck by the water cycle, and the idea that, while it may change state, it never really goes away.

For example, I take that tasty adult beverage and consume it (the best part) and then, in not too long a period I'll piss it back out. It goes down the toilet, out into the leach field in my front yard and leaches down into the ground eventually joining the local aquifer. My well draws the water back up from the aquifer and I make a new batch of beer from it. The cycle is complete!

PS - Without some drift we may as well just put a fork in this thread.

 

[FJRay]

"FORK"

 

[Old Guy]

My point exactly. I remember sometime back in grammar school being struck by the water cycle, and the idea that, while it may change state, it never really goes away.
For example, I take that tasty adult beverage and consume it (the best part) and then, in not too long a period I'll piss it back out. It goes down the toilet, out into the leach field in my front yard and leaches down into the ground eventually joining the local aquifer. My well draws the water back up from the aquifer and I make a new batch of beer from it. The cycle is complete!

PS - Without some drift we may as well just put a fork in this thread.

I saw a show on TV not long ago about our planet, and they said that the volume of water on earth probably hasn't changed much in millions of years. It's fascinating to think that some of the water I used in my coffee this morning could have been drunk and recycled by a dinosaur millions of years ago.

 

[bwv]

I have some water at my house that some people in Kentucky have absolutely polluted with mashed up corn, red winter wheat, malted barley, and yeast... they boiled it a few times... then just left it to sit for years in an old warehouse...

I think I will see if I can clean it up a little and return it to the environment...

So this post remains forum related (in addition to the corn in line 1 keeping it on topic), I will make this attempt to recycle that water, while i stare lovingly at my now garage bound FJR ... perhaps it will help keep me from the depths of sadness that PMS and the constant worry that the ethanol in the tank, has wrought upon my brain.

Wish me luck

 

[RaYzerman19]

Yabbut, the problem is as man uses the planet, the water moves away from where we need it.... if you ain't got it, somewhere else does, and the fights start over who don't got it. Fred's pee went to the acquifer, the paper mill stuff went down the river, mighta even got to the ocean. But it ain't at the paper mill no more. The oceans are rising, there are reasons for that.