Learning to turn properly

[Laser Dude]

As someone who hasn't ridden in decades and being a new FJR rider, I did take the Motorcycle Safety Class and it was excellent. However, I spend more time than I should (perhaps) trying to dissect my riding to try and learn from my mistakes and become a better rider. I've got the straight line thing down. Give me a straight road and I'm your man

However, I've run upon something I've done twice now on the FJR and I'd like to figure out what I'm doing wrong to stop it, as well as learn how to correct from it if it does happen again.

I think back on a ride I did a couple years ago on a borrowed Harley in a curve and darned if it isn't the exact thing that I'm talking about now. So obviously it's a pattern in my riding or a big lack of knowledge and I need to fix that.

The problem comes in a curve. I feel like I pay really good attention. I can't say I make all my turns textbook, but I honestly try really hard to pay sharp attention to parts of the turn, as well as identifying blind curves, and picking lines, etc. One thing I do know I need work on is looking through the turn. I'm not sure if that's the cause of my issues or not.

See the photo below. The green line being the line I'd like to take in my head, and plan on taking, but just about the time I hit the apex of the turn, something in my riding goes wrong and my path starts to follow the red line, which isn't good. It usually puckers me up pretty tight and I've even let out an "OH SH%T" on my Sena when riding with someone because I didn't know if I was going to make it. From a figuring out standpoint, we aren't talking 70 mph turns, we're talking turns at less than 35 mph, and maybe even in the 25 mph range. It's only happened a couple of times in over 5,000 miles, but I don't want it to happen any more times in the next 5,000.

At the point it's happening, the last time (a few weeks ago), I just leaned into the apex of the turn more and really aggressively tried to steer it out while letting off the throttle. My gut tells me there's probably a right (better) way to handle this.

I'm not well versed in all my terminology so I hope I've stated the issue clear enough that some of you more experienced riders might be able to pinpoint the issue and help me learn how to deal with it properly in hopes that it makes me a better rider. I appreciate the help, in advance!

 

[SacramentoMike]

Looking through the turn is the first thing I thought of--not ahead of you, but way out where the yellow line on your chart ends, and be looking that far ahead all the way through (all while being conscious of potholes, rocks, varmints in the road you'll be riding over, of course).

But I did a course called "Streetmasters," what they described as an advanced cornering workshop. The best thing I learned from that is where to be in the lane at every point in a turn. The simplest way I can explain it is that your green line (what you think you want) is off. It's too smooth. You should enter the turn much wider, and stay wide longer. Then make your turn sharper than the green line. You'd start the turn (the apex) somewhere near the point where your line is closest to the center line, except your ideal line would be to the right of the green or red line. It would not be a smooth turn all the way through the curve like yours is, but more bent, like an elbow. You would come out of the turn closer to the center line than your green line is here, and going pretty much parallel to the yellow line. You'd hold off getting real close to that center line until you could see your way through the turn, and know nothing was coming wide from the other direction to kill you. That's really when you should start cutting in.

If the road is curvy, this also begins to set you up for the next curve, to the right, where you stay near the yellow line as long as you can (this is called a "delayed apex" turn, and in a left hand turn, of course, you'd be staying near the right side of the lane as long as possible), then as with your left turn, you should make your turn sharper than the curve of the yellow line, and exit the turn farther over on the right side of the lane. For both left and right, always delay beginning the turn until you can see your way out of the curve. Avoids surprises.

Hope that's not too confusing.

 

[Bugnatr]

Arr, Sacmike beat me.

May I suggest 2 things. Most important..keep your head up and look where you want to go not where you are going.

Slow in fast out, in other words slow down before the curve and once you reach the apex then you can speed up if the rest of the turn is clear.

 

[Mr. BR]

Yup.. that “oh sh*t” moment usually results in the rider grabbing brakes and going right off the edge of the road. I did that once when I was young and inexperienced.

Did your MC Safety course talk about and practice counter-steering? For the corner in your illustration, simply looking ahead as you stated may help but IMO also applying more pressure on the left bar (pushing) as needed should let you maintain your line and make the corner (WHICH line you take is something that will come along later). This works even at the modest speeds you mention (25-35 mph) and there’s no escaping the Physics of a spinning wheel (try turning left to go left and report back). Of course, this doesn’t apply to going very slow (walking speed etc). Just think “push left to go left, push right to go right” to initiate and hold your turn. I don’t want open up a can of worms as counter-steering has been discussed many times on MC forums and there are many opinions out there (just like this one).

Regards,

Mr. BR

 

[its just rain]

A great source of information on just exactly what you are asking is a book called "Proficient Motorcycling" by David Hough. I ordered both his 1st and 2nd volumes from the library and probably should read them again. You can also order them on Amazon if you want your own copies. It addresses what you are asking about and more. The best part is that they come in coffee table sized books and are very easy to read.

I'm still trying to get good at what you are working on. I think it is always a work in progress and takes lots of practice.

 

[Laser Dude]

Thanks for the input guys, just to add a little more data to it, I've never actually had it happen coming the opposite direction, i.e., where me not making the turn means I overrun the yellow line. It's only happened on turns to the left. One more point of interest, I'm not trying to drag my knees or scrape my foot pegs, I'm just casually riding (not aggressive).

I'm trying hard to look ahead, and since it's only happened twice, with the FJR, I haven't been aware when it's happened to pinpoint where I was looking, so I'm not sure if it's from that or not. It's quite possible.

Just for making be better, what's the right way to recover if you do find yourself in this situation? Just turn it harder and lean more? Worse case, you low side it, as opposed to high siding it if you don't make the turn?

 

[Blind Squirrel]

Thanks for the input guys, just to add a little more data to it, I've never actually had it happen coming the opposite direction, i.e., where me not making the turn means I overrun the yellow line. It's only happened on turns to the left. One more point of interest, I'm not trying to drag my knees or scrape my foot pegs, I'm just casually riding (not aggressive).
I'm trying hard to look ahead, and since it's only happened twice, with the FJR, I haven't been aware when it's happened to pinpoint where I was looking, so I'm not sure if it's from that or not. It's quite possible.

Just for making be better, what's the right way to recover if you do find yourself in this situation? Just turn it harder and lean more? Worse case, you low side it, as opposed to high siding it if you don't make the turn?

Are you scraping pegs when this happens? I would presume not, so to answer your question base on that; yes, keep looking through the turn, keep your hands light on the handle bars and lean harder into the turn. These are incredible machines. Trust the bike to get you through.

 

[Laser Dude]

Not even close to scraping the pegs. My gut tells me that it's happening in my head, that it's a subconscious thing that the bike won't stick if I keep turning. I know that's incorrect, but it's where my self psychological analysis is leading me.

 

[phroenips]

One of the things that sometimes gets to me is thinking I don't have the clearance to make the turn and I'll start dragging hard parts. Or scarier yet, I feel good going into a turn, and all of a sudden, an evil highway engineer made a decreasing radius turn and all of a sudden I need to lean even more!

Coming Unglued helped me, and gives me that cushion room to be able to comfortably be able to lean the bike further if I need to.

 

[SacramentoMike]

Not even close to scraping the pegs. My gut tells me that it's happening in my head, that it's a subconscious thing that the bike won't stick if I keep turning. I know that's incorrect, but it's where my self psychological analysis is leading me.

I was going to add one more thought, but phroenips' link says it all, and with an expert's gravitas. Hanging off the bike to the inside of the turn is something I picked up from another riding class, Lee Parks' "Total Control." By getting your own weight to the inside of the bike's center of gravity as you and it go through the turn, it lets the bike be more upright, you have less lean on your tires, so more of the "meat" on your tread is gripping the road. If you get the feel of doing this, you become much more confident about making those turns. And sometimes if you enter a turn faster than you wish you had, you can get your weight over to the inside pretty quick--that's a good way to help you through some of those "oh ****" moments too.

You can get the book of the same title from Lee Parks' website, or find other ways, courses, books, track days, to school yourself on your riding. That's probably the best thing any rider can do.

 

[Dutch]

(IMO) you shouldn't be riding that motorcycle.

Start with a small dirt bike - find some off road trails.

My fear is I'm going to meet you in my lane some day.

 

[someguy]

your bike will follow your nose...

it's a saying but it's very true.

Two things (and many good points already made)

1. point your chin into the turn you are entering. your bike will follow your there.. while pointing your chin into that turn look as far as possible down the road and into that turn as possible. (eventually you will be looking "through" the turn and past the point of visible pavement, but that comes with time) Practice this "looking through the turn/leading with your chin" by doing this "chin" lead, your are forcing your eyes high and upward and into the turn.... looking through the turn. (eventually it will happen without thinking about it and it won't seem awkward)

2. "Push through the turn". the bar that is on the inside of the turn is the one you gently push away from you into the turn.

try this: (this is the counter steering mentioned above).

...Ride gently into a soft turn and gently push the inside corner bar toward the apex then toward the exit of the turn...

the bike will follow your chin and your pushing hand through the turn.

and to your question about "riding out of" a blown or over run turn: this is generally caused by "target fixation" with new riders vs entering too fast. the bike will go where your eyes are looking and if you are focused on a scary edge or guardrail or car or whatever, you will ride straight to it. The bike will generally hang on long after our brain has give up on the turn.

so do this.: ALWAYS look where you WANT to go, not where you are afraid of going.... ALWAYS...

riding into a turn hot and running out of turn can be overcome by looking where you want to go, pushing harder with the inside grip toward the turns apex/exit, and making no sudden throttle or brake changes (upsetting the line and balance of the bike while in the turn)...

loading the brakes (as a novice rider in a turn) can cause the bike to stand up and straighten sending you off the road.

Apply the followin in every turn every time: enter the turn at a steady smooth speed, and once you enter the turn, you crack the throttle just enough to sweep you through the turn in a smooth controlled way, pushing with your inside hand and pointing with your chin...

go find an empty mall parking lot or school parking lot and practice these. they apply at all speeds fast enough to have your feet on the pegs...

take your time... and soon it will come naturally.

once you get this, then start learning how to enter the turn late, drop to the apex, then sweep out under throttle.... you will be safer and live longer staying off that center line as your drop in point.

as noted above, it's a lot of bike to get back on the street with.

welcome back and keep us posted... (and of course this is only my opinion based on experience, and i am open to critical review)

 

[Pterodactyl]

With all due respect to my learned forum colleagues, getting advice online can be dicey. Assuming all the advice offered here is well founded, it is still too easy to misunderstand what was written. You may misunderstand what was written, or what was advised may not be your issue and will lead to new issues.

I suggest you seek your advice from someone experienced and willing to ride with you to observe and teach. There are track based courses for this, or perhaps someone on the forum lives close enough to help you out. What is particularly important is that you recognize an issue with your riding and you are seeking help.

Now for my dicey take on this. You may be entering corners too quickly for your confidence level in leaning the bike. In other words you are unwilling to lean the bike hard enough to follow the line you desire. Or, you are already a peg scraping Valentino Marquez and you are simply entering corners too early and/or at speeds that are beyond the capability of an FJR. You may need to reduce your entry speed or late apex the corners. I am a big fan of the late apex style of cornering on public roads. It allows for increased line of sight around corners with obstructed views and provides additional reaction time to problems. I agree that your green line is too symmetrical. See, I used the word "or" in there a few times. Only an experienced observer could decide what your issue is and offer the best advice.

 

[Heen]

Laser Dude,

There are lots of valid suggestion above. I really like the one of riding with some one who is experienced and competent in riding so that person can evaluate your riding. My suggestion is to think back to the course you took. You had markers, cones, lines etc. set up in a parking lot. Go to an empty parking lot and practice. I would concentrate on the left hand turn using techniques of looking through the corner and counter steering until you become more comfortable with the bike leaning. Once you are comfortable doing that, you can work on lines through the corners on the road.

 

[NTXFJR]

Just a thought, lean angle. You have to lean the bike for it to track a turn properly. The fjr will lean over with out dragging hard parts much more than most realize. I leaned some pretty hard curves in Colorado during nafo while following some fellow hoodlums forum members and never scraped a peg, naary a bit. Our bikes will carve some pretty mean curves with relative ease, but the proper lean angle has to be there to do it. That's true with any bike, but our sport touring fjrs will safely handle quite a bit of angle. Bottom line, don't be afraid to lean that bike over some more, trust your bike and tires while making sure you are aware of things like leaves, dirt, gravel, potholes, etc as you are negotiating the turn. One of the things our safety course instructor taught us was that scraping a peg is not the end of the world, it can be safely dealt with. I preemptively put the balls of my feet on the pegs when entering a curve to avoid the psycological distraction of worrying about dragging a foot.

 

[wheatonFJR]

Push on your right handle bar, go right.

Push on your left handlebar, go left.

In slow, out fast.

 

[thompsonian]

I've always tried to follow the slow in, out fast mindset. One thing I didn't see, is that are you having issues with one type of turn vs the other? As in a right vs a left or is it just in general? I find that personally I prefer left hand turns as my line of sight is usually better, whereas on rights I'm constantly on the lookout for gravel and other general crap in the middle of my line.

 

[Laser Dude]

Thanks guys, just to repeat something I have said repeatedly, since a few people thought I shouldn't be riding, I said this has happened twice. I recovered from both, and I did say that it has never happened in turning right, only left. I also said that I do think it's something mental, not physical, such as "going in too fast". I'm not a road racer, don't think I'm one, and don't plan to act like one. I've been riding the mountain roads as much as possible, with many, many curves, going slow (the speed limit and recommended speeds for turns) just trying to get the practice in. I spend a lot of time make slight body weight shifts in larger, sweeping turns, and I do spend time purposely noting countersteering and practicing that.

That's why I asked, because I'm trying to educate myself. I do ride with more experienced people (often people who seem to cross yellow lines in curves, which I don't do) and I do seek advice from them. However, since this has happened twice in 4 months over 5000 miles, it's not something that is frequent, and no one's been behind me either time so I thought I would ask.

I personally believe it's mental and either I'm losing focus for that split second and stop looking where I want to go or something else mental. It's been in a long set of twisty roads where it's happened, so it's curve after curve after curve. It hasn't happened in normal riding around town.

I appreciate the feedback of so many here. I'll take note of it and continue practicing my skills and trying to follow the advice given here. Hopefully it's happened for the last time. I'll look at the resources listed as well. I appreciate the advice!

 

[hppants]

I agree with most of our friends - you are likely target fixing on something much closer than the vanishing point in the curve. I also subscribe heavily to the "outside/Inside/outside" methodology for negotiating curves, even more pronounced on left handers. You are most likely to get into trouble at the apex of the curve, and having the full width of the lane to work with is golden, IMO.

I also agree that you should find your lowest speed at the point of initial countersteer. Hold your throttle and speed steady until you are past the apex - then accelerate out of the curve if conditions allow for it (and for MAXIMUM fun factor!!!). The steady speed to the apex plants our chassis and keeps it from bouncing around, or bouncing more if you come across an imperfection in the pavement at this most inopportune time. I find this even more important when the bike is loaded with luggage and camping gear.

Finally, I learned most of what (little) I know about riding from a trusted and accomplished friend (who is also now a MSF instructor). She followed me at first and l showed her what I was doing wrong. Then she made me follow her and she showed me how to do it right. So I think the "buddy system" idea is great, but should be delivered in two equal parts.

Great idea for a thread.