Learning to turn properly

[BikerGeek99]

I hope you seriously consider the Lee Parks course - the first exercise on the range was riding in a circle, with an instructor in the middle; you're supposed to look at the instructor the entire time.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Love this thread as negotiating curves is such a critical skill to learn, practice and improve upon. I've never met a rider who couldn't use improvement in their cornering technique. As a RiderCoach for the past 11 years, I have to throw my couple of pennies in here.

Laser Dude: do not overthink this. Your...occasional...cornering problem does not stem from some technically advanced cornering technique that you haven't yet learned. You're having an occasional fail (as many bikers, myself included, do) in BASIC cornering technique. Keep it simple and refine the FOUR step cornering process of SLOW, LOOK, PRESS and ROLL. I've read a lot of responses here that have dealt with three of those four or have suggested the lack of more advanced cornering techniques. Allow me to emphasize the first and most often overlooked step when a rider has a "bad" turn: SLOW.

Your entry speed into a curve sets the stage for how easy/well you negotiate that curve. Among other factors, your skill level and the curve itself should dictate your entry speed. Lower skill level and/or a blind curve dictate a slower entry speed than someone with a higher skill level entering a wide open gradual sweeper. Start with a slower entry speed until you can further develop and refine your overall cornering technique. Slower entry speeds generally allow more time to properly correct other errors made while cornering. By the time you enter the curve, your slowing should be completed. Slow down early.

The LOOK component has already been addressed in this thread. Keep your head and eyes up and look as far through the curve as you can. Visual-directional control will help the bike go where you're looking. Look straight ahead or to the outside of the curve too long and that's where the bike will want to go. Look down at the ground too long and.....well, you get the point. Head and eyes up and look through the curve.

Pressing is how you get the bike to lean through a curve. If for some reason you feel you're drifting wide in a curve, a steady throttle and pressing HARDER in the direction you want to go is how you recover. Too often riders freak out, abruptly decelerate or (worse yet) abruptly apply brakes and, because of already limited traction make the situation exponentially worse. If your entry speed is too high, you'll have to press harder than you anticipated. Slowing your entry speed...and looking... can help alleviate that problem.

The roll function is the my favorite part of a curve. If your entry speed is proper and you're looking through that curve, a gentle...or even a more aggressive...roll-on of the throttle keeps that suspension seated nicely keeps you feeling in complete control. As suggested in earlier threads, enter the curve slow and progressively increase your rate of acceleration as you near the exit. Enter too hot, look away from curve and/ or don't press hard enough in the direction you want to go and it's be near impossible to roll-on throughout the curve. You definitely won't feel in control.

 

[Laser Dude]

Thanks Coach! Good info. I do chuckle some while reading some responses. I say "I have 999 turns that felt great and 1 that I dropped the ball on" and I'm a danger on the road, should sell my bike, get something other than a FJR, it's the wrong bike for me, etc Gives me a smile

I'm far from perfect, but I'm always a long ways from the picture some seem to paint. I suspect that if people were being honest and the percentage of errors they have while riding, it would be a little more posted about. I thought it would be good for me to see what I might be missing in that 1 out of 1000 error, in hopes to not have the 1. I think I've gathered plenty to work on for sure. Mainly just continuing to do what I'm doing and trying not to let that distraction of that 1 bad turn creep back in. My problem is that it's so rare that it's hard to pick apart the error, so I thought I'd explain it here in hopes of getting insight into the potential problem. I think I've accomplished that. Great information, great resources and suggestions (except for selling my bike ).

I will look into that class. I had already considered the advanced class from the Motorcycle Safety folks.

 

[bluesurf]

I haven't the time right now to peruse the entire thread but one thing that I always coach new riders on is inputs/points of contact, and utilizing all of them.

Certainly, your hands on the bars will provide the majority of the impetus required to turn the motorcycle. However, do not discount the impact that applying pressure through your feet can have as well, both inside and outside corner feet. Position matters as well (try going through a corner with your feet on the passenger pegs compared to the "drivers" pegs). In addition to that, moving your body has tremendous impact on the ability of the bike to turn, not only side to side but also front to back. When riding in a spirited fashion, on any of my street motorcycles, then I am almost constantly adjusting angles and applying pressure through all of the available inputs. Remember also that the more of the tires touching the road the better. Some people do not lean off, but I do during spirited riding.

The more in touch with your machine you are the more in control you are likely to be, and the more headroom you have to deal with an unexpected circumstance.

 

[rogdeb]

" .............................. while letting off the throttle. ............"
I

Laser Dude, referring to the above segment from your initial post.

I got through the whole thread and didn't see where anyone told you that "letting off the throttle" in a curve is a no-no. All that does is allow the rear suspension to relax, which then increases the chance of dragging peg feelers (which isn't as bad as it seems really), but at worse, dragging hard parts.

Just my take on it though. more experienced here may put me right, or explain it more eloquently. I only speak from my own experience.

Apart from that, really great advice has been posted, especially from RiderCoachLar. This is a great forum

 

[bluesurf]

Great point. Let's discuss trail braking....

 

[El Toro]

You're overanalyzing. Stop thinking about it. Stop looking where you don't want to go, studying side roads, shoulders, things like that. When someone tells you to look through the turn, they do not mean look on the tangent from your current position. They mean look on the chord through to the point where you plan to be on the out bound segment.

I agree with the guy who suggested that you might want to learn to ride on a smaller bike. The weight and inertia of an FJR or other large bike can be very unforgiving. I can't imagine riding one if I were having the problem that you've described. I'd be way to anxious to enjoy the bike.

A great bike that doesn't cost too much and that is very easy to ride is the air cooled Triumph vertical twin. It is very forgiving.

 

[Laser Dude]

You're overanalyzing. Stop thinking about it. Stop looking where you don't want to go, studying side roads, shoulders, things like that. When someone tells you to look through the turn, they do not mean look on the tangent from your current position. They mean look on the chord through to the point where you plan to be on the out bound segment.
I agree with the guy who suggested that you might want to learn to ride on a smaller bike. The weight and inertia of an FJR or other large bike can be very unforgiving. I can't imagine riding one if I were having the problem that you've described. I'd be way to anxious to enjoy the bike.

A great bike that doesn't cost too much and that is very easy to ride is the air cooled Triumph vertical twin. It is very forgiving.

So 1 error in 1000 turns and I should stop riding the FJR and get a smaller bike? I started riding in 1987 on a sport bike. I'm not new to riding, I haven't owned a bike in decades, but I'm not sure how making 1 mistake in a curve, which I recovered from qualifies as being too incompetent to ride the FJR. If I followed that logic, there are many far more experienced riders on this forum that have made far worse errors with a lot worse results.

I asked what might have caused me to lose focus on 2 turns out of 1000's. Not 2 wrecks out of 1000's of turns. Two things I thought that I made a mistake on and wondered if I could improve. I don't think buying another bike solves my target fixation error that's happened twice in over 5000 miles. Neither time did I cross any yellow line, inside or out. That should tell you that I was riding slow enough to recover safely.

 

[El Toro]

First one's free. It's not the number of times you do it right. It's the fact that one screw up is enough to ruin things.

You describe a problem with your ability to stay on your line. It sounds like classic low level target fixation.

It could not possibly hurt you to spend more time on something smaller until you've got this figured out.

You're the one who posted on an open forum, complete with color diagrams, with the problem.

There was another thread that got resurrected from 2011 when a forum member went off the road. It was resurrected because he is still recovering.

If you're wondering about how to get your curves right, and it's just a technical tidbit for you, sign up for some track days. Seriously. It will be a lot more meaningful that chewing the assorted theories over here. Go out and do it. Track day if you can. Lighter motorcycle if you can.

625 pounds and 140 HP aren't the best for learning basic skills.

 

[wheatonFJR]

You say yer not new to riding and have been riding since 1987, but yet yer riding an FJR and were outrun in the curves by a trike? Something doesn't compute there.

Don't take this wrong, but the people saying yer on the wrong bike may not be too off base. Learn on an FJR, or learn on a lighter bike, but do it. Stop this paralysis by analysis.

 

[Laser Dude]

You say yer not new to riding and have been riding since 1987, but yet yer riding an FJR and were outrun in the curves by a trike? Something doesn't compute there.
Don't take this wrong, but the people saying yer on the wrong bike may not be too off base. Learn on an FJR, or learn on a lighter bike, but do it. Stop this paralysis by analysis.

What I said was that I'm a very safe, slow rider, hence the reason I was being outrun by the trike. The reason I said that was to try and demonstrate the realistic conditions because some people didn't pick up on what I said about the situation and were suggesting that I was dragging the footpegs and thought I bought a FJR which made me think I was a road racer the next day. I was trying to express that wasn't the case, it wasn't who I am or how I ride.

I did start riding on the road in 1987 on a Honda Hurricane (plenty of dirt bikes before that). But that was a long time ago. I have ridden a few times over the years, but nothing what I consider logging any real seat time, which is why I consider myself a newbie. Am I a complete newbie? No. Do I treat my riding experience like I'm starting over? Absolutely. I'm a very safe, cautious rider and I analyze my riding constantly, which is why I asked the question I asked. My gut tells me that a lot of people reading this have done the same thing before. I'm happy that I had the mental capacity to realize something happened that mentally, I didn't agree with, and I wanted to get to the bottom of it. Buying another motorcycle does resolve a target fixation problem.

Do I have any plans to be the first to cross the line at Tail of the Dragon? Nope. Would I ride it today if I was there? Sure would. Would I be the last one in the line? Yup. I'm long past the point in my life where I need to be the first to cross the finish line. Having said that, do I have any plans to ride the Dragon any time soon? Nope.

There has been a lot of great advice on this thread, as well as PM's by some very knowledgable riders. I'll take that advice and strive to be better every time I ride.

I've witnessed very experienced riders make many mistakes. I've watched videos on this forum where experienced riders show POV videos and they are crossing lines and missing their lines. I've watched experienced riders miss many lines. I drove by a motorcycle fatality where the rider was doing over 100, yet all their friends say they were the model of being a safe rider.

My point was simply to determine 2 things, 1) what I did wrong, 2) the safest way to recover from it if you realized it was happening again. I thought that knowledge would be helpful to me as well as anyone else that might have experienced it yet hasn't posted about it. I think I have learned the answer to both things, so this thread was very helpful to me, and hopefully to others as well. I appreciate all the input and look forward to riding with some of you soon so you'll have a better understanding of me and my skill level. Just be prepared, I won't pass you on the double yellow lines You also might be finished your meal before I get there

 

[TomInPA]

Laser Dude, I need to set you up to ride with my brother. Sounds like you two are comfortable and happy at the same pace, and share the same level of caution. The problem with some of the criticism I've seen in this thread is that you are indeed riding within or below your abilities, ON THE BIKE YOU OWN, and none of us should encourage anything different. Lots of comments focused on tools to help move the skill level higher, and that's fair game. FWIW, you seem to be doing okay, and I'll be waiting at the next intersection.

 

[BigOgre]

I asked my instructor if . . . .

Been meaning to ask, are you working with someone on this? If so, what's been their advice?

 

[bluesurf]

You're overanalyzing. Stop thinking about it. Stop looking where you don't want to go, studying side roads, shoulders, things like that. When someone tells you to look through the turn, they do not mean look on the tangent from your current position. They mean look on the chord through to the point where you plan to be on the out bound segment.

I agree with the guy who suggested that you might want to learn to ride on a smaller bike. The weight and inertia of an FJR or other large bike can be very unforgiving. I can't imagine riding one if I were having the problem that you've described. I'd be way to anxious to enjoy the bike.

A great bike that doesn't cost too much and that is very easy to ride is the air cooled Triumph vertical twin. It is very forgiving.

So 1 error in 1000 turns and I should stop riding the FJR and get a smaller bike? I started riding in 1987 on a sport bike. I'm not new to riding, I haven't owned a bike in decades, but I'm not sure how making 1 mistake in a curve, which I recovered from qualifies as being too incompetent to ride the FJR. If I followed that logic, there are many far more experienced riders on this forum that have made far worse errors with a lot worse results.

I asked what might have caused me to lose focus on 2 turns out of 1000's. Not 2 wrecks out of 1000's of turns. Two things I thought that I made a mistake on and wondered if I could improve. I don't think buying another bike solves my target fixation error that's happened twice in over 5000 miles. Neither time did I cross any yellow line, inside or out. That should tell you that I was riding slow enough to recover safely.

Now that I'm receiving email notification updates...

Regarding what might have caused you to lose focus then no one here can answer that for you. We don't know if your previous corners were apexed correctly, if a bee crossed your path, if you thought momentarily about something else just prior to the corner. Remember that you reached out for advice, a worthy thing, and should regard the fact that numerous people here have taken time out of their own lives to help you as a positive. Possibly a smaller bike *is* the right answer, at least for now :shrug:

You, and only you, own your brain, and the relationship between it, your limbs, your motorcycle and the results. My last thoughts are that you can continue to dwell on this or move forward. Go ride a road that you know, and work the corners until you're satisfied and have restored some confidence. None of us got to be good riders by not actively practicing. Also, the poster who gave the "do a track day" advice was on target. When you're out riding think about what you're doing, and nothing else. If other things enter your mind then you need to address those first, otherwise you do need to work with someone, possibly a professional, to get this sorted. Good luck with it; riding is one of those genuine pure pleasures, like surfing/playing music/dancing/good loving/etc, in this life.

 

[NTXFJR]

Sounds to me like you have the right approach toward learning your ride while striving to improve. Kudos. As the saying goes, there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but not both.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

" .............................. while letting off the throttle. ............"

I

Laser Dude, referring to the above segment from your initial post.
I got through the whole thread and didn't see where anyone told you that "letting off the throttle" in a curve is a no-no. All that does is allow the rear suspension to relax, which then increases the chance of dragging peg feelers (which isn't as bad as it seems really), but at worse, dragging hard parts.

Found a couple more pennies to throw in here regarding rogdeb's comment above and bluesurf's post after it referring to trail braking.

Slowing while leaned over in a curve, either through braking or decelerating does "allow" the suspension to relax...and feel less stable. Without any adjustment in your press, it makes the bike want to fall harder and more quickly into the curve than you likely anticipated. While that may sound cool because you like dragging hard parts of your bike, you'll have a hell of a time maintaining your anticipated line, or path of travel, throughout that curve. A steady or increasing throttle keeps the suspension firm so that your press (and look) can be consistent and dictate how well you hold your line and negotiate that curve.

If your goal is to negotiate your curves as smoothly and quickly as possible, you'll want to follow a nice inside-outside-inside path of travel which may include delaying the apex. Unless you're within a small group of riders who are trained in advanced cornering techniques and find yourself in a position to use those techniques on a public roadway, slowing or braking in a curve means you likely made an error in your approach to that curve. With a bit of luck, you'll get another chance to correct in the next one!

 

[SacramentoMike]

Lots of discussion about slowing while in a curve, which you might feel forced into if you find yourself approaching the apex too fast (i.e. faster than you're comfortable with), but simpler and safer than that, remember that you almost always have the option of slowing down, as rapidly as necessary, before the curve. It would be very rare to be already in the curve and going too fast, with no warning at all.

One thing we all should be able to do, and should practice at least occasionally, is emergency straight-line braking. Braking while IN a turn is a big problem, but you can always see a turn coming up, and have time to assess your speed and comfort level with being able to handle the turn. That's your chance to get the speed adjusted quickly if necessary. You can slow down a lot before you ever begin your turn. Then you don't have to think about trail braking, or counter steering, or settling your suspension, or much else. Just don't wait until slowing becomes an emergency procedure. Do it early.

 

[NTXFJR]

We hooligans keep offering advice it seems on our personal riding styles. The op has said a handful of times that it's not speed control he's concerned about, it's merely a lack of confidence, something we all probably have at times, while executing the turn. Seems like coach Larry has offered the most effective advice in terms of conveying the proper concepts.

 

[Blind Squirrel]

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/169435-took-my-fjr-to-the-california-superbike-school-with-pics/?p=1331177

 

[Uncle Hud]

^^^^^ Nice. THAT's the posture for making turns.