I think you are just looking at it from a different viewpoint. For example: The aerospace guys do a pretty thorough job of predicting ALL the forces and events a new airplane will be subjected to....which is why the first 787 will take off and land uneventfully on it's first flight. It just depends on how much time and money is spent on the analysis of the subject device, how much safety factor is built into the design, how much is really known about the device so as to make an accurate a model as possible (see first item) and, maybe most importantly, how well the "engineer" can control the customer usage of the product. Airplane operation is a relatively contolled environment with fixed rules for operation and trained operators with standardized operating procedures. Car and motorcycle operation is just the opposite. You never know what the operator is going to do when the "hold my beer and watch this" syndrome takes over. Which is why engineering cars and motorcycles is a bit tricky and leaves the end result open to discussions like this.
An excellent point and example, but even in the aviation biz, unexpected mechanical failures do occur with almost frightening regularity. Again, I don't fault the engineers for not foreseeing and foretelling the future, I blame it on the absolute impossibility to do so. You cite the aerospace industry as well, and yet look at how many mishaps and near-disasters the space shuttle program had in the last few years. **** happens that's out of your control...always has, always will.
The horn circuit in question is probably designed with a significant safety factor (in terms of current capability) on the production motorcycle. Which is why many people will add horns with greater amperage draw "without a problem." But just because the circuit is operating at 9/10's of it's capability "successfully" for one person does not make it right nor mean that the engineer screwed up in the design.
Agreed again...mostly. It oughta be able to operate at 9/10ths of it's capability indefinately. It's when you get to 10/10ths or higher you expect to see a problem. And again...not blaming the engineer.
Durability and reliability start to come into play. Also that pesky operating schedule...... How long does the horn toot each event? Maybe you like to toot and others like to sit on the horn for longer periods of time? Maybe the wiring will withstand the current draw for 2 seconds but will overheat when subjected to a 5 second burn when that semi is slowly pinching you into the rail and the horn button and throttle are both pegged.
Which is why I brought up the point about evasive manuevers vs horn honking. IMO, if you're laying on the horn for long periods of time, you're just being needlessly obnoxious and deserve to have your horn switch melt into a blob.
Unless the mechanic that modifies the device tests it in the same vein it was designed in he/she has no idea how close the engineer was cutting it. That is the safety factor thing. In this simple case I would imagine that the horn might work fine with the OEM wiring and contacts for many people who seldom use it for most of the time for low mileage riders. Throw in a long toot, some dirt on the contacts, a frayed strand or two of wire at the terminal and all bets are off. That is what the safety factor was thrown in for and if you use it up with your mods (without a relay) then you (or your horn circuit) are on borrowed time.
Maybe I'm just spoiled because I work on a pretty good product. In 'Yota land, we just don't see alot of **** just fall apart. Oh, we have our problems too, but in the big scheme of things (ie; the number of miles people put on our products and what customers subject them to), I think we have a pretty acceptable number of failures. Sometimes it's an apparent design flaw, sometimes it's just wear and tear. But overall, I never cease to be amazed at how much abuse and neglect a Toyota can withstand without leaving the driver walking home. Is that over-engineering? Could be. If that's what it is, then I think everything should be that way.
I always love the arguements and viewpoints between engineers and mechanics...... Living on both sides of the matter at times really makes it interesting.
We always have similar discussions with the techs/mechanics in our test garages and dyno labs. They obviously see a lot of failed and used up parts since we are testing things to their absolute limits (and beyond) in some cases so they tend to develop an attitude that the engineers must really not know what they are doing where the engineer looks at the failed part and is happy that it failed how and where and when the model predicted so as to validate the model and the design that was done using the model.
I actually have had a fair amount of interaction with Toyota engineers (been a 'Yota mechanic for a couple decades now). I can't say I ever remember any of them being happy to know that a part failed or is failing on a regular basis.
Sprint. Aside from this hyjack.... I am more concerned in these horn replacements with the forks hitting the horns than with the electrical issues. Blown fuses and melted wires can be replaced. Tag the horn with the fork in the wrong way and your day might turn to ****. My experience is that it is pretty difficult to get adequate fork clearance to the larger horns if they are simply tucked into the same spot. I know the Magnum Blasters I installed hit the forks at full turn and full compression without some serious trimming and relocating the mounts. I took the time to take the fork springs out so I could collapse the forks and turn them right and left and they were hard into the MagnumBlasters. So.....check your clearances carefully when you are done. I realize it is unlikely to get full compression and full turn angle at the same time but at least check the full compression because mine hit originally in that mode without even turning the forks at all before I started some serious relocating. Just because one person rides around without hitting doesn't mean that there is adequate clearance for that 99th percentile bump and turn you have yet to hit....... But that is just the engineer in me....
As a matter of fact, I mounted my Mega-blasters in the stock location and did have to do a fair amount of tweaking on the brackets to achieve clearance between the forks and the horns. I ended up with no conflict on right full lock turns, but the fork just kisses the left horn on full lock left turns. The horn and bracket assy have more than enough give though to make it a non-issue in my particular situation, but you're right, it's something that certainly needs scrutiny during the installation process.
So far, all that has entered into the equation is the current capability of the circuit. But, that is not the only requirement when sizing the wire. In many cases the wire size will be much larger than necessary for physical strength. Because mechanics love to tug on the wires instead of always grasping the connector body the wire is frequently upsized to add strength not only in the wire itself but in the grip strength of the connector. Something like a horn feed might have 16 gauge wire to the horn connection when 22 gauge wire would carry the electrical load fine. 22 gauge is a bit tiny to go tugging on, though. So, the "oversized" 16 gauge wire is viewed as electrical overkill for the physical protection it provides.
Ok, this part I'm not buying into. As a mechanic, it's my oppinion that the factory doesn't take having to work on the son-of-a-bitch into account. If they did, my job would be a shitload easier. They may over-engineer to allow for some vibration and general rocking and movement, but if they were concerned about me yanking wires out of connectors, they could sure do things alot differently.
And the engineer that designed it is viewed as an idiot for putting too big of a wire in there in the first place.
Wow, I don't know what field of engineering you're in, but if you get yelled at for over-engineering a part, I don't think I want to buy whatever it is they want you to cheapen. :blink: :blink:
If your logic is true then that means that the horn circuit on the 2000 model must have been grossly overdesigned/overcapacity if it has the capacity to add that much load with no changes. Which is the safe way out for an engineer and doesn't take nearly as much analysis. Do you know that this is the case on the FJR...??? If not, then your example means absolutely nothing. It is worse than useless to use this example, in fact, it is misleading without knowing what the capacity of the circuits were.
Easy there big fella. I'm starting to see a trend here. Apparently I somehow gave you the idea that I think engineers don't know what they're doing and are the root of all mechanical evils. It couldn't be farther from the truth. Go back and re-read what I've said, including the "tidbit, FWIW" and you'll find I'm really on the engineers side. My ONLY qualm with many engineers is that they don't want to admit that they don't have a crystal ball. The concrete physical principles used in engineering apply in a mostly perfect world, which sadly just doesn't exist. You do the best you can with what you've got. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's your fault because you missed something which will seem really obvious in hindsight, sometimes it's something that was relatively unforeseeable. No problem Bro. I make mistakes sometimes too. I don't like it when I do, but we're only human and we all make mistakes.
Now about that Tacoma horn thing...it might be noteworthy that in the change for '01, they also went from a mechanical relay to an IC controlled circuit. I'm not really sure how that affects the big picture, but I just thought I'd throw it in there to really get the wheels a-spinnin' in yer head. :yahoo: :yahoo:
And I still stand behind everything I've said here thus far.
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