Man, Don't Know If I Can Watch A Second Time

[NC_Yank]

I agree with painman..........the guys not the brightest bulb in the pack.

While he is talking to an attorney, it would do him well to get rid of videos

showing that he likes to pass on dbl yellow lines............brain surgeon.

Complete waste of a bike for such a rider.

NC

 

[Penforhire]

From his description it does seem it could happen to anyone. But I'm not so certain he wasn't putting in too much steering angle. If his steering angle wasn't too much too fast then ABS would have helped there eh?

I'm ginger-as-heck and try to be upright whenever I ride over wet plastic lettering or arrows. They can be slick as algae any time.

 

[War Machine]

Majority of single bike accidents relate to Excessive Speed for the exisiting conditions!

If you rethink what you saw in the video, here is a rider approaching a wet area, who did not brake ahead of time upon recognizing the wet area. He then approached the wet area while leaning & then applied his brakes! To top it off IMHO you never down shift to 1st gear while moving above 5 mph. He should have been in 2nd gear approaching that area & braked sufficiently before entering the wet area before leaning. If you need to shift to 1st it should be for the acceleration part after slowing down.

Seeing the white traffic paint under the water is difficult, but that is exactly what we try to train ourselves to recognize as experienced riders, but then again if this rider had approached this area in the manner I recommended the wet paint would have been less of a risk factor. The white paint is a risk & not the cause of this accident. The cause of this accident was excessive speed for exisiting conditions.

Hope this rider learns from this expensive mistake & enrolls in some MSF coarses. He is to be commended for at least having the sensibility for wearing protective gear.

 

[Mogambo]

Majority of single bike accidents relate to Excessive Speed for the exisiting conditions!
If you rethink what you saw in the video, here is a rider approaching a wet area, who did not brake ahead of time upon recognizing the wet area. He then approached the wet area while leaning & then applied his brakes! To top it off IMHO you never down shift to 1st gear while moving above 5 mph. He should have been in 2nd gear approaching that area & braked sufficiently before entering the wet area before leaning. If you need to shift to 1st it should be for the acceleration part after slowing down.

Seeing the white traffic paint under the water is difficult, but that is exactly what we try to train ourselves to recognize as experienced riders, but then again if this rider had approached this area in the manner I recommended the wet paint would have been less of a risk factor. The white paint is a risk & not the cause of this accident. The cause of this accident was excessive speed for exisiting conditions.

Hope this rider learns from this expensive mistake & enrolls in some MSF coarses. He is to be commended for at least having the sensibility for wearing protective gear.

Agree. I also took note of his passing techniques on the other video. Not good.

 

[James Burleigh]

What a surprise! I just joined the forum and came across this lively discussion of my crash video. Now I know what it'll feel like to be a fly on the wall at my own funeral. Only I'm gonna step out of the coffin (I need to lose this metaphor) and jump into the discussion.

Where to start.... Well, did this happen to me because I’m not as smart and experienced as everyone else? Could this have happened to you? Isn’t that what we all wonder when we see a video like that?

I am decidedly not the brightest bulb in the drawer (see mixed metaphor) by any stretch of the imagination as my wife will enthusiastically inform you, but I DO take my riding seriously, always trying to increase my knowledge and experience.

I am a relatively new rider, but have gained some experience since beginning three years ago. I have been commuting to work in the Bay Area for the past three years, about 70 miles a day (if you hate lane splitting—lane splitters—better not have a look at my commuting videos).

In fact I don’t drive a car much anymore, and am pleased to say that when I last drove the minivan to Berkeley, my body rejected the automobile—I got a cramp in the crook of my accelerator foot and had to hand the wheel over to my wife (see comment above).

I've taken the basic riding course and two advanced courses (ERC). The first ERC class was on my Harley Sportster (on which I logged 47,000 miles in less than three years much to the amazement of my dealer), and the second ERC class I took as soon as I got my ’05 ABS FJR last April. I've got my first track school (CLASS) next month at Infineon.

I've read every book by David Hough (several times each) as well as TOTW I and II. I've most recently read Pat Hahn's excellent book, and of course the recently updated Motorcycling Excellence by the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. I routinely practice swerving, braking, and slow-speed maneuvers in parking lots.

And I published two articles on safety in Friction Zone based on my analysis of the California Highway Patrol’s accident database containing 10 years worth of statewide accidents (>100,000 records). Articles available here: https://jb-mc-articles.blogspot.com/2006/05...e-accident.html

As for the accident, the facts are that I was in and stayed in first gear, as you can hear in the video. There was no downshifting into first gear. Nor is there any abrupt change in lean angle or acceleration. There’s hardly any lean angle at all. It was a very simple, smooth throttle roll on as I approached the merge pocket to get back onto Marsh Creek Road.

As I reflect more on this very painful, expensive, and upsetting crash, I believe that I did not even interpret what I saw on the pavement (namely, a dark spot in the middle of the white stripe) as water, let alone as algae. In the 90-degree heat at 4 in the afternoon, I’m pretty sure I did not think there could be water on the road. I imagine I interpreted what I saw simply as a discoloration of the pavement. The senses deceive.

On top of all that, even if I did see water over a slick white stripe (see David Hough’s admonition about this in his Street Strategies which resides on my back of my toilet), how many of us would have perceived danger in crossing a white stripe and a quarter inch of water when going over it straight up in first gear?

As for crossing the double-yellow line…well, if I have to explain it, you won’t understand.

I’m glad to be aboard the forum!

JB

 

[markjenn]

JB, thanks for responding on this forum. This sort of accident can happen to anyone. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it for a second. Been there, done that.

I do want to counter any perception that this sort of accident is a random thing that can't be antciipated or prevented, however. I'm not god's gift to riding skill by any means, but as I was watching this video (even in 450x300 pixel window), I immediately recognized the hazard as soon as it appeared. 38 years of riding will do that. And noting the fairly high rate of speed, the proximity of the turn, the need for fairly heavy braking, and the need to mix the braking and turning.... I thought, "That's where he's going to crash." You simply can't brake this hard on wet paint, especially in a turning situation. If the bike is more upright, you can sometimes slide the front a bit, recognize the slide, release the brake, and save it, but with any lean angle at all the front end slide can't be caught - you'll lowside every time. Cold tires may be a further contributor. (Performing for the camera might even have been a contributor. I race, but I don't ride this aggressively on urban streets as a rule.)

ABS might have saved it. Might not. Hard to say, it all depends on far the bike was leaned over which affects how long the ABS system has to release the tire and save the slide. What ABS does allow is for someone to recognize the traction problem situation, stand the bike up straight, hammer the brakes without regard to traction, and hopefully get the bike to a speed where they can release the brakes and make the turn safely.

Anyway, my point is that SEAT TIME (and sometimes an accident like this) will give most riders the ability to recognize this sort of hazard and avoid it.

It's unfortunate that this sort of thing can't be simulated better on a motorcycle - the consequences of tire slides are so severe, we really can't slide a bike around very much without taking big risks. I'm a lousy dirt-bike rider, but I keep my hand in it, because it really helps one develop a sense of traction at either end of the bike and you quickly realize just how much you have in optimal conditions and how little you have in sub-optimal conditions like this. Even if you don't ride dirt, spending your first year or so on a lighter bike will really help as big bikes like the FJR just can't be slid around much without dire consequences. This is why I push new riders to stay on lighter/smaller bikes as long as possible - horsepower is not typically a huge issue for a new rider, but weight is. The worst riders I've seen in my ERC teaching is folks who have ridden nothing but huge cruiser v-twins from the start - they typically have very little sense of what is going at the tire contact patches.

- Mark

 

[Ric in Sac]

What amazed me most was how FAST it happened. It looked like you hit ice. We all learned from the video - thanks for having the juevos to share it with us and talk about it.

 

[Mogambo]

As for crossing the double-yellow line…well, if I have to explain it, you won’t understand.

I understand it fine. I just don't agree with it. Personal choice.

 

[BrunDog]

It sounds like you de-clutched and I guess you got on the rear brake, no?

In any event, this is definately a crash a lot of us could have experienced. You had sliders? You do now, I bet!

-BD

 

[James Burleigh]

Good point. I should have said, "If I have to explain it, well, you wouldn't agree."

JB

 

[rogdeb]

What amazed me most was how FAST it happened. It looked like you hit ice. We all learned from the video - thanks for having the juevos to share it with us and talk about it.

+ 1

 

[War Machine]

I do want to counter any perception that this sort of accident is a random thing that can't be antciipated or prevented, however. I'm not god's gift to riding skill by any means, but as I was watching this video (even in 450x300 pixel window), I immediately recognized the hazard as soon as it appeared. 38 years of riding will do that. And noting the fairly high rate of speed, the proximity of the turn, the need for fairly heavy braking, and the need to mix the braking and turning.... Anyway, my point is that SEAT TIME (and sometimes an accident like this) will give most riders the ability to recognize this sort of hazard and avoid it. - Mark

Markjenn's quote above is how I perceived your video Jburleigh. While you are correct & never downshifted into 1st in the video, it is the lack of deceleration before the accident is my critique! I cannot tell in the video if you relied only on engine deceleration or a combination of engine deceleration & braking. It is the lack of enough deceleration before contact with the wet white paint, & if the lack of enough deceleration was caused by failure to recognize the hazard, that is exactly the difference between much experience & knowlege, & some experience & knowledge.

While you are to be commended for your dedication to learning in such a short time in this sport it is hard to apply all you have learned. That comes with major seat time.

As for your other video it did not bias me towards what I saw from your accident video. I have commuted over 30 years in NYC traffic & I lane split. But, in the video of your ride...if that is the extent of traffic in your rush hour...then lane splitting is not necessary.

Welcome to our forum! As you will see in the near future, you do not have to be a fly on the wall here. We will tell it like it is, right in front of you. Your comments are always welcomed whether we agree or not.

 

[Scythian]

Meh... I learned the lesson of standing water and algae when I was a kid riding BMX bikes in drainage ditches. It is worse than ice--which I learned riding BMX bikes on ice...

As I watched the video I thought: "Ooh, that looks like standing water. I'll bet there is algae--*CRASH*...."

As fall approaches, I would remind all riders that fallen leaves are slick as hell!

(which I learned rollerblading on a path with leaves....)

As soon as I came over the rise and saw the water and black algae patches I would've grabbed the clutch. Your only chance is to coast through that stuff with no leaning, braking, gassing--nothing....

Then I would have had the shakes for a bit....

 

[James Burleigh]

While you are to be commended for your dedication to learning in such a short time in this sport it is hard to apply all you have learned. That comes with major seat time.
As for your other video it did not bias me towards what I saw from your accident video. I have commuted over 30 years in NYC traffic & I lane split. But, in the video of your ride...if that is the extent of traffic in your rush hour...then lane splitting is not necessary.

Welcome to our forum! As you will see in the near future, you do not have to be a fly on the wall here. We will tell it like it is, right in front of you. Your comments are always welcomed whether we agree or not.

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Machine. As I said in my intro in the new members thread, I feel the virtual group hug and love. It's great!

I look forward to many more years of seat time and keeping the rubber side down, and to the lessons I learn, particularly about spotting pavement hazards. One of the tips in Motorcyclist magazine's recent "50 Ways to Save Your Life" article was, "If it looks slippery, assume it is." (If only that had looked slippery to me....!)

I make obeisance to your 30 years' commuting in NYC. I am not worthy.

When I shot my commuting videos, it was summer when school was out, so traffic was fairly loose. Nevertheless, being a fairly aggressive rider, I don't like to sit within the pack and cruise with traffic till some idiot forgets I'm there and changes lanes into me. All right, I'll cut the BS--I like to go FAST!

But with school back in session it's ugly out there again and the lane splitting's not for the faint of heart, or those wearing saddlebags on their FJRs. In fact, even the mirrors are a little wide for commuting. In city traffic I'm having to sit back and not go to the front in cases where I could have on my Sportster.

I have read all comments on my crash with great interest in order to learn what I can. You can bet I've got a whole new respect for pavement reading. Nothing like going from fun to f**ked in .03 seconds to give you a new respect for the physics of traction.

JB

 

[Scythian]

While you are to be commended for your dedication to learning in such a short time in this sport it is hard to apply all you have learned. That comes with major seat time.

As for your other video it did not bias me towards what I saw from your accident video. I have commuted over 30 years in NYC traffic & I lane split. But, in the video of your ride...if that is the extent of traffic in your rush hour...then lane splitting is not necessary.

Welcome to our forum! As you will see in the near future, you do not have to be a fly on the wall here. We will tell it like it is, right in front of you. Your comments are always welcomed whether we agree or not.

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Machine. As I said in my intro in the new members thread, I feel the virtual group hug and love. It's great!

I look forward to many more years of seat time and keeping the rubber side down, and to the lessons I learn, particularly about spotting pavement hazards. One of the tips in Motorcyclist magazine's recent "50 Ways to Save Your Life" article was, "If it looks slippery, assume it is." (If only that had looked slippery to me....!)

I make obeisance to your 30 years' commuting in NYC. I am not worthy.

When I shot my commuting videos, it was summer when school was out, so traffic was fairly loose. Nevertheless, being a fairly aggressive rider, I don't like to sit within the pack and cruise with traffic till some idiot forgets I'm there and changes lanes into me. All right, I'll cut the BS--I like to go FAST!

But with school back in session it's ugly out there again and the lane splitting's not for the faint of heart, or those wearing saddlebags on their FJRs. In fact, even the mirrors are a little wide for commuting. In city traffic I'm having to sit back and not go to the front in cases where I could have on my Sportster.

I have read all comments on my crash with great interest in order to learn what I can. You can bet I've got a whole new respect for pavement reading. Nothing like going from fun to f**ked in .03 seconds to give you a new respect for the physics of traction.

JB

Y'know, it is a bit of a freak accident--standing water from a spring in the road like that is fairly rare.

You'll never crash from that again!

You are now an expert in standing water/algae

 

[James Burleigh]

Y'know, it is a bit of a freak accident--standing water from a spring in the road like that is fairly rare.
You'll never crash from that again!

You are now an expert in standing water/algae

Lord bless you for your wisdom. I feel like you've cut through all the preaching and gospel and analysis and mea culpas and summarized all the wisdom there possibly is to be found in my sad accident.

Such a scenario will not soon pass this way again.....

JB

 

[Nomore76]

I'm confused. All I get is a "Private Video" notice. How do I see the video?

Update - Crap, now it says the video has been removed... What's goin' on???

 

[Warpdrv]

I'm confused. All I get is a "Private Video" notice. How do I see the video?
Update - Crap, now it says the video has been removed... What's goin' on???

Yes... +1....

I would also like to see the video.... missed it...

If you could get it uploaded again... that would be great...

 

[tripletango]

From his description it does seem it could happen to anyone. But I'm not so certain he wasn't putting in too much steering angle. If his steering angle wasn't too much too fast then ABS would have helped there eh?
I'm ginger-as-heck and try to be upright whenever I ride over wet plastic lettering or arrows. They can be slick as algae any time.

ABS would not have helped. It may have let the wheel turn but he ran out of stiction and that sucks. It was 100% used up sliding sideways and there ain't nothing one can do except hope that within the next few inches of travel there is part of the road that allows some traction. Then ABS would help!

 

[Barabus]

Personally, I learned from your video and will look out for this type of hazard. It takes a lot of guts to post that on the net and showcase your accident. Bravo!! I can guarantee that those giving advice would not show their crash video nor would they take the "constructive criticism" so well.