Motorcycles and Invisibility

[Fred W]

...my reading indicates that no camouflage system can be 100% effective. My take away from my reading as it applies to being seen, is that I do not believe we can find a visibility solution that will work 100% of the time--even if we exclude oblivious drivers from the calculation.
In my option, if we come up with a combination of gear (lights, reflective/hi vis clothing, etc.) that yields 99.99% visibility, we should still ride like we are invisible.

+1000

Let's just say that we accept the OP's original premise as being completely true: When you are riding with a bright sun/sky behind you lights on your bike will make you less visible, to the point of being invisible to a casual observer.

You still have to consider, what percentage of the time is that the case? Those same lights clearly make you more visible when the sky behind you is not bright, and if the majority of your riding time is in that situation, doesn't it still make good sense to use them?

You could probably assign some statistics to arrive at percentages, but even if we just cut the possible encounter directions up into quadrants and say that any time you are approaching from the direction of the sun within a 90 degree arc sector (a generous allowance I would say), this still means there are 270 degrees that the lights would be beneficial to safety. The laws of random probability say that we should encounter other drivers from every angle at the same rate, so the lights would be 3 times as beneficial as they are detrimental. Still sounds like a good idea to use them, and also develop a heightened awareness when you are a rider with the sun at your back or a driver looking into the sun.

 

[infrared]

In my option, if we come up with a combination of gear (lights, reflective/hi vis clothing, etc.) that yields 99.99% visibility, we should still ride like we are invisible.

+1000

Let's just say that we accept the OP's original premise as being completely true: When you are riding with a bright sun/sky behind you lights on your bike will make you less visible, to the point of being invisible to a casual observer. You still have to consider, what percentage of the time is that the case? Those same lights clearly make you more visible when the sky behind you is not bright, and if the majority of your riding time is in that situation, doesn't it still make good sense to use them?

You could probably assign some statistics to arrive at percentages, but even if we just cut the possible encounter directions up into quadrants and say that any time you are approaching from the direction of the sun within a 90 degree arc sector (a generous allowance I would say), this still means there are 270 degrees that the lights would be beneficial to safety. The laws of random probability say that we should encounter other drivers from every angle at the same rate, so the lights would be 3 times as beneficial as they are detrimental. Still sounds like a good idea to use them, and also develop a heightened awareness when you are a rider with the sun at your back or a driver looking into the sun.

Fred W,

If you read my posts, you will find that I agree with everything that you just said. I am not proposing that we ride without lights in daytime, but I am saying that we should NOT believe that lights are *always* helpful, in being seen. In the occasional situations that I mentioned, lights can still be worse than nothing, for being seen by other drivers. On those special occasions, I would recommend taking some extra care, just as any rider would take care in a sudden rain (or hail) storm, or when hitting a big patch of spilled sand or fallen leaves.

The places where a rider can be "back-lit" are these: with their long shadow in front of the bike, or when cresting a hill, or on an open hillside curve, and where the traveled roadway is somewhat elevated above the intersecting roads and driveways (a literal "high-way" in the true meaning of the term). In total, these situations may combine into a small but respectable percentage of our riding. It does not hurt

to be aware that motorcycle lights can become serious camouflage in these situations. As I have said, we all make our own choices in matters of personal safety. All riders should feel free to disregard this "observation" from history, if they wish.

Cheers,

Infrared

 

[ionbeam]

When conspicuousness lighting conspires to turn you invisible there is a work-around. Note that in the example using lights to make planes invisible they use a specific wave length bulb. The halogen family of bulbs tend have a color temperature of 3000K to 4000K, pretty solid in the yellow range. LEDs can be purchased in a wide color temperature range. My LED conspicuousness lighting is in the 5800K range which is pushing white/blue color. The contrast between these two colors will prevent 'blending-in'. This can be enhanced by making the lighting triangular, where the headlights make one point of the triangle and two lower mounted LEDs on each side of the wheel make the rest of the triangle. This puts the white/blue lights down in the normal shadow zone in a very unnatural color which gives the motorcycle both size and distance perspective.

I set my LED floods to what I though might be too bright and went for a drive. The traffic kindly let me know that they were indeed too bright by continuously flashing me, I backed them off a tiny amount until I only annoyed a few people. If my lights are so bright they are annoying then I know I'm being seen. To the annoyed drivers -- sorry, as long as you aren't dazzled it's good to confirm that I'm noticed.

 

[Lauren_TK]

If you read my posts, you will find that I agree with everything that you just said.

The way I read Fred's post, he was agreeing with you while reminding the thread of the content of the original post . . . cause, you know, topic drift.

 

[Fred W]

Yup, I was agreeing with the OP and agreeing with Lauren. I'm a pretty agreeable type...

 

[Justin]

On the subject of visibility, there are techniques I use other than lighting. Here's one I find works really well. When approaching an intersection or a place where a car is preparing to turn out, swerve in your lane. Just enough to make the background behind the car move, as that will be enough for them to see the background behind you move. That helps people's eyes and brains get a better perspective for distance.

 

[hppants]

Fred - that was my method for adjusting my fork mounted LED's, and exactly my thinking on the matter.

Justin - I employ the "in lane weave" too and agree with your reasoning behind it.

The thread's a little jacked up, but I am enjoying the discussion greatly.

 

[Lauren_TK]

Here is a list of visibility tips gleaned from this forum and other sources:

• High vis colored, reflective clothing
• Second brake light mounted high
• "Fog" lights
• White helmet*
• In lane weave approaching intersections
• Deer whistles**

What else should we add to the list?

* There was an interesting European study that conclusively showed that riders with white helmets were involved in less accidents. Riders will "high vis" color helmets had the same accident rates as any other color. The study did not control for rider skill, so the study couldn't determine if careful riders bought white helmets or if the color itself was responsible.

** As shown in another thread on this forum, deer whistles attract the attention of skeptics very quickly.

 

[Justin]

• High vis colored, reflective clothing
• Second brake light mounted high
• "Fog" lights
• White helmet*
• In lane weave approaching intersections
• Deer whistles**

• Triangle of light (i.e. fender mounted lights that form a triangle with your headlight)
• Lights that are different color temperatures or that glint/glimmer

 

[Fred W]

* There was an interesting European study that conclusively showed that riders with white helmets were involved in less accidents. Riders will "high vis" color helmets had the same accident rates as any other color. The study did not control for rider skill, so the study couldn't determine if careful riders bought white helmets or if the color itself was responsible.

Are you sure about the bolded statement above? Would you happen to have a link to that study?

I was under the impression that this study of which you speak, and which has been bandied about here in the past, was from a time before HiViz yellow had even became an option for riders.

I think that there would also most likely be a sort of cross corollary bias in studies such as this one. Riders who intentionally choose HiViz or White helmets because they are perceived to be safer colors are also apt to ride more safely and have more rider training and experience. Naturally they would also be involved in fewer statistical occurrences (collisions, etc.)

 

[Lauren_TK]

• High vis colored, reflective clothing
• Second brake light mounted high
• "Fog" lights
• White helmet*
• In lane weave approaching intersections
• Deer whistles**

• Triangle of light (i.e. fender mounted lights that form a triangle with your headlight)
• Lights that are different color temperatures or that glint/glimmer

How about:

• "Fog" lights arranged in a triangle with the head lamp (i.e. fender or fork mounted)

As for the lights being a different color/temperature, I'm not convinced. I'm going to hit the library this weekend and see what I can find out.

 

[Lauren_TK]

* There was an interesting European study that conclusively showed that riders with white helmets were involved in less accidents. Riders will "high vis" color helmets had the same accident rates as any other color. The study did not control for rider skill, so the study couldn't determine if careful riders bought white helmets or if the color itself was responsible.

Are you sure about the bolded statement above? Would you happen to have a link to that study?

I am pretty sure. I will see if I can dig up the link. It's been a few months. However, the study was very upfront about the fact they couldn't tell if it was careful rider choosing white, or if it was the color. The study was based on European accident reports and those reports, of course, do not accuaretly capture that data.

EDIT: Pardon me. My wife corrected me. It wasn't an official study, but a profissional statistician doing data mining on his own for fun, and posting the results on Spyderlovers.com.

I can't find the original post, but here is one where he quotes himself:

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?58359-Helmets

 

[ionbeam]

...As for the lights being a different color/temperature, I'm not convinced. I'm going to hit the library this weekend and see what I can find out.

If I can find a picture of MEM's or BigOgre's FJR from the front your research on color temperature difference will be done and you will believe.

 

[Lauren_TK]

If I can find a picture of MEM's or BigOgre's FJR from the front your research on color temperature difference will be done and you will believe.

Light tends to "blend" color over distance, so I'm just not sure. I can be convinced, but I need a bit more hard data.

That's why I want to hit the library (and google) this weekend. I was a photography art major at one time in my distant past, and I remember that there are formulas for this kind of thing. I need a refresher on what the formulas are, and how they work. Also, I remember something about Yahudi lights on the horison don't need to be a specific wave length. My memory isn't what it used to be, so I want to make sure before I put my foot in my mouth--again.

 

[Fred W]

EDIT: Pardon me. My wife corrected me. It wasn't an official study, but a profissional statistician doing data mining on his own for fun, and posting the results on Spyderlovers.com.
I can't find the original post, but here is one where he quotes himself:

https://www.spyderlovers.com/forums/showthread.php?58359-Helmets

Just went through his post. Paraphrasing his posts, he seems to be saying that white has better crash stats, but he's not entirely sure why. He doesn't mention HiViz, only white vs. "other colors." At the time of the study there may not have been such a thing as HiViz helmets

My gut feeling is that HiViz is more visable under the majority of conditions (but not all) than white. But white is universally less socially offensive.

If I can find a picture of MEM's or BigOgre's FJR from the front your research on color temperature difference will be done and you will believe.

Light tends to "blend" color over distance, so I'm just not sure. I can be convinced, but I need a bit more hard data.

That's why I want to hit the library (and google) this weekend. I was a photography art major at one time in my distant past, and I remember that there are formulas for this kind of thing. I need a refresher on what the formulas are, and how they work. Also, I remember something about Yahudi lights on the horison don't need to be a specific wave length. My memory isn't what it used to be, so I want to make sure before I put my foot in my mouth--again.

At what distance do we really care to? It is pretty hard to collide with someone from a great distance.

That is, unless you are traveling at the speed of light, in which case you'd arrived there before the light from your colored aux lights anyway.

 

[Lauren_TK]

At what distance do we really care to? It is pretty hard to collide with someone from a great distance. That is, unless you are traveling at the speed of light, in which case you'd arrived there before the light from your colored aux lights anyway.

Distance is half the reason for my weekend research. If the blending does not become significant until over 100 meters, then color makes a difference.

If the blending is significant at 50 meters, then it might make a difference.

If the blending is significant at, pardon me for a bit of hyperbole, 1 meter, then color does not matter.

The other half is about how the brain/eyes register the difference in the color temperature of nominally "white" light. How different does the light need to be? Humans can generally distiguish between hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of different colors--when we have time. What can we do in a fraction of a second?

Question for Ionbeam: Do you know how many lumens your lights put out now that you've adjusted them down? I don't expect you do, but you might.

 

[JimNtexas]

I first heard about the Yehudi effect in an advanced USAF electronic warfare course back in the 80s.

Sorry Infrared, I'm going to have to kill you.

Nothing personal.

 

[ionbeam]

...Question for Ionbeam: Do you know how many lumens your lights put out now that you've adjusted them down? I don't expect you do, but you might.

My flood lights are 2,000 lumen each, I run them at 30% dusk/dark which really is too bright and run them 40% to 50% daytime depending on what roads or highways I will be primarily driving on. On a group ride during the day where I will be in the pack, I run 40% max and at dusk/dark 20%.

As I approach a situation where I need to be sure the person pulling out or turning sees me I sometimes flash my high beams which triggers my driving lights 100% and that sudden flash is VERY noticeable to anyone even casually glancing in my direction. The Skene LED controller has an ALERT! mode that rapidly modulate the brightness of the lamps.

 

[Justin]

Just look at emergency vehicles. NIJ and other groups have done many studies on visibility. Contrasting colors and contrasting luminosity greatly enhance visibility. Blue was found to be the most visible color. Of course, in most states (if not all) you can't run blue lights on your vehicle. However, a HID or LED light from 6000 kelvin and up has a blue tint which makes them more visible compared to a standard halogen light that's between 2500-3500 kelvin. It's not that people can't see colors, it's that the human brain "fills in" a lot of blanks, as your brain doesn't have to power to process everything you see at once. When your brain sees something that is different than usual, then it processes that.

Example: Imagine walking down a crowded sidewalk. You're not processing every single person in the crowds around you. If a person in a clown suit walked by in the crowd, that would stand out and you'd definitely notice.

 

[Donal]

* There was an interesting European study that conclusively showed that riders with white helmets were involved in less accidents. Riders will "high vis" color helmets had the same accident rates as any other color. The study did not control for rider skill, so the study couldn't determine if careful riders bought white helmets or if the color itself was responsible.

Are you sure about the bolded statement above? Would you happen to have a link to that study?

I was under the impression that this study of which you speak, and which has been bandied about here in the past, was from a time before HiViz yellow had even became an option for riders.

I think that there would also most likely be a sort of cross corollary bias in studies such as this one. Riders who intentionally choose HiViz or White helmets because they are perceived to be safer colors are also apt to ride more safely and have more rider training and experience. Naturally they would also be involved in fewer statistical occurrences (collisions, etc.)

If I had to guess I would say it has a lot to do with the fact that police riders wear white helmets and most of the public are conditioned to watching out for white helmets.......................