Motorcycles passing through a red light

[Geezer]

The newer installations around Kingston, NY use xBand radar to detect a vehicle approaching the light. In fact the main business district has a road that is just one steady blast of xBand for about 20 blocks. I stll have a few of the buried sensors to contend with and I normally ride up along the black line, as close to the sensor as possible to make it work. I tried to lower the center stand a couple of times but that is awkward and I normally get the sidestand caught on my boot and kill the engine. :huh:

 

[wheatonFJR]

I have found that pushing the center stand against the pavement usually provides enough metal to be detected....this was a suggestion previously given on this board or EZBoard.

 

[C&C]

As most of the above posts suggest, there are a lot of variables. I tried the magnet, no dice; kickstand down, no dice; stop/restart engine, again no dice. I'm sure some of the remedies work but I'm also sure not consistantly (so that's why I'm glad that at least I now have the law on my side though I've heard if you are stopped, it is still your work agaisnt the LEO).

 

[Bounce]

Odd. Every place I've ever ridden has addressed such a situation as described by the OP under their "malfunctioning traffic signals". If the sensor doesn't detect a legal vehicle then it's malfunctioning. Treat the intersection as a stop sign (always giving the other traffic the right-of-way).

Any time I've been "lectured" or even sent to court, it's been thrown out for these reasons (malfunctioning).

 

[daviddowns2000]

The Florida statute regarding inoperative triffic signals is:

"The driver of a vehicle approaching an intersection in which the traffic lights are inoperative shall stop in the manner indicated in s. 316.123(2) for approaching a stop intersection. In the event that only some of the traffic lights within an intersection are inoperative, the driver of a vehicle approaching an inoperative light shall stop in the above-prescribed manner."

I don't know if the term "inoperative" would encompass a signal with a sensor that failed to sense motorcycles, but I would argue that it should.

 

[Ignacio]

Odd. Every place I've ever ridden has addressed such a situation as described by the OP under their "malfunctioning traffic signals". If the sensor doesn't detect a legal vehicle then it's malfunctioning. Treat the intersection as a stop sign (always giving the other traffic the right-of-way).

You would think!

But, we've had locally some specific disagreement with that approach (researched by one of our forum members no less)...and I think partly why the issue is being considered in our legislature.

Where I would love to have assumed common sense would prevail by treating it as a non-changing signal as a stop sign...I'd worry local or our state patrol would give me a $124 ticket and it would stick.

 

[daviddowns2000]

Odd. Every place I've ever ridden has addressed such a situation as described by the OP under their "malfunctioning traffic signals". If the sensor doesn't detect a legal vehicle then it's malfunctioning. Treat the intersection as a stop sign (always giving the other traffic the right-of-way).
Any time I've been "lectured" or even sent to court, it's been thrown out for these reasons (malfunctioning).

I just looked through the South Carolina motor vehicle statutes (https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t56c005.htm) and couldn't find anything pertaining to malfunctioning or inoperative traffic control devices. Something may be there, but I didn't see it.

 

[Ignacio]

I just looked through the South Carolina motor vehicle statutes (https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t56c005.htm) and couldn't find anything pertaining to malfunctioning or inoperative traffic control devices. Something may be there, but I didn't see it.

SC doesn't seem to handle it as inoperative traffic control devices. They have a time delay.

Each state undoubtedly will have different language and details.

Section 56-5-970 (5)

(5) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if a driver of a motorcycle or moped, or a bicycle rider, approaches an intersection that is controlled by a traffic-control device, the driver may proceed through the intersection on a steady red light only if the driver or rider, as the case may be: (a) comes to a full and complete stop at the intersection for one hundred twenty seconds; and
( B) exercises due care as provided by law, otherwise treats the traffic control device as a stop sign, and determines it is safe to proceed.

 

[FJRocket]

(I'm told that that can make a bicycle trip the sensor if they want). If two minutes is the price I pay, so be it.

At the other end of the spectrum, if it's a LARGE (wide) underground wire like a couple of turn lane intersections in my town, seems that if a large truck (for instance) gets too close, and the sensor is TOO sensitive, then it trips. Consequently all the other SIX lanes get to sit and wait for the empty turn lane signal to expire. Frankly that sucks for everyone.

So don't let them get those signals TOO sensitive. I'd rather wait through my chance at a second cycle of the light, then blow on through. One cycle at OH DARK THIRTY.

 

[ionbeam]

NH Motor Vehicle Division applicable traffic laws:

Traffic Signs, Signals and Markings

Section 265:10

265:10 Traffic Control Signal Legend

III. Steady Red Indication.

(a) Vehicular traffic facing a steady circular red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line or before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in subparagraphs III, <b> and <f> (These two sections address right turn on red, and pedestrian safety when turning right during a red light.)

CHAPTER 265

RULES OF THE ROAD

Section 265:13 Traffic Signs, Signals and Markings

III. Steady red indication--vehicular traffic shall not enter or travel in any lane over which a red signal is shown;

=================

In NH you are not permitted to to turn left on a red light, ever. I've talked with officers in several town that have balky or non-sensing traffic loops and they all say that they will issue tickets if a motorcycle turns left on a red light, no exceptions. I was instructed to turn right, find a driveway on the left, in a non-double yellow section of the road and turn around then proceed back to the light and go straight. They made sure that I was clear that it is illegal to cross a double yellow line, ever. If I had to cross a double yellow to turn into my driveway I was supposed to go down the road to a non-double yellow area, then turn around and come back in order to turn into my driveway :blink: WTF? I have heard one or two people say that the police in their area (of NH) would not ticket for a left on red if their motorcycle didn't trigger the light. That means that those cops are freelancing and not upholding the law as it is written. Do ya feel lucky? :lol:

 

[daviddowns2000]

I just looked through the South Carolina motor vehicle statutes (https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t56c005.htm) and couldn't find anything pertaining to malfunctioning or inoperative traffic control devices. Something may be there, but I didn't see it.

SC doesn't seem to handle it as inoperative traffic control devices. They have a time delay.

Each state undoubtedly will have different language and details.

Section 56-5-970 (5)

(5) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if a driver of a motorcycle or moped, or a bicycle rider, approaches an intersection that is controlled by a traffic-control device, the driver may proceed through the intersection on a steady red light only if the driver or rider, as the case may be: (a) comes to a full and complete stop at the intersection for one hundred twenty seconds; and
( B) exercises due care as provided by law, otherwise treats the traffic control device as a stop sign, and determines it is safe to proceed.

What I was getting at was that I couldn't find anything in the SC statutes that applied to the general issue of inoperative or malfunctioning traffic lights, like Bounce was describing. The new law allows motorcycles, mopeds, and bicycles to proceed, but there seems to be nothing about OTHER vehicles (like uh, cars?) and how they should proceed in the case of a malfunctioning signal. Maybe OGRE knows of something, but I didn't see it in the statutes I read.

 

[C&C]

(I'm told that that can make a bicycle trip the sensor if they want). If two minutes is the price I pay, so be it.

At the other end of the spectrum, if it's a LARGE (wide) underground wire like a couple of turn lane intersections in my town, seems that if a large truck (for instance) gets too close, and the sensor is TOO sensitive, then it trips. Consequently all the other SIX lanes get to sit and wait for the empty turn lane signal to expire. Frankly that sucks for everyone.

So don't let them get those signals TOO sensitive. I'd rather wait through my chance at a second cycle of the light, then blow on through. One cycle at OH DARK THIRTY.

Your right, not too sensitive. However, I was using a bicycle only as an example, it shouldn't be hard to calibrate the sensor to a vehicle of say 200 pounds (that should get just about all motorized vehicles). And, so what if a false alarm happens occaisionally, the inconvenience is probably only 15 seconds as opposed to the motorcyclist's two minutes. Just saying.

 

[Harald]

The centerstand trick occasionally works for me. But if the light won't change, then I'm runnin' it! If I were to get ticketed, I'd definitely fight it in court. A traffic light with sensors is designed to sense a vehicle and change. I'm on a vehicle and the light is not changing, so clearly it's not performing it's intended function (in other words - It's Broke!).

Because judges love documentation, I've saved copies of every letter or email I've ever sent to government traffic departments about defective lights. Because it's not practical to send a letter for each light I've ever come across, I've concentrated on the ones that annoy me on a regular basis. And I always add a note in my letter/email asking them to keep motorcyclists in mind with all other signals they are responsible for.

 

[ionbeam]

The design of traffic sensing loops is actually much more complicated than you would expect. There are many different loop designs, each targeting various lane and intersection configurations. As noted earlier in this thread, one design consideration is to avoid adjacent lane traffic. Another problem is to have enough gain to sense a tractor trailer which may be several feet off the roadway as opposed to a car that is low down. The computer and sensor interface units that manage these lights can be stupefyingly expensive, so many dollar challenged towns and state projects may purchase a less capable system.

One challenge here in the north east is keeping the sensor loops healthy due to road buckling (frost heaves) during the winter and spring. Plus, the sensor wires take a pounding from heavy traffic and the insulation on the wires can absorb moisture. There are all kinds specifications for wire loop kerfs and epoxy which also plays a role in how the loop functions.

Entering the snore zone: Traffic loops don't work the way most people think they do. The sensor loop is fed an AC signal in the 20-30 kHz range. As a vehicle passes over the loop the metal (be it aluminum or iron) causes a change in inductance. It is the shift in inductance that indicates the presence of a vehicle. Most newer traffic sensing areas are constructed using a quadrupole loop design. This is two separate loops that are laid out in a figure eight pattern which produces vastly better vehicle sensing.

 

[FJRocket]

(I'm told that that can make a bicycle trip the sensor if they want). If two minutes is the price I pay, so be it.

At the other end of the spectrum, if it's a LARGE (wide) underground wire like a couple of turn lane intersections in my town, seems that if a large truck (for instance) gets too close, and the sensor is TOO sensitive, then it trips. Consequently all the other SIX lanes get to sit and wait for the empty turn lane signal to expire. Frankly that sucks for everyone.

So don't let them get those signals TOO sensitive. I'd rather wait through my chance at a second cycle of the light, then blow on through. One cycle at OH DARK THIRTY.

Your right, not too sensitive. However, I was using a bicycle only as an example, it shouldn't be hard to calibrate the sensor to a vehicle of say 200 pounds (that should get just about all motorized vehicles). And, so what if a false alarm happens occaisionally, the inconvenience is probably only 15 seconds as opposed to the motorcyclist's two minutes. Just saying.

The inconvenience might be 40 or 50 vehicles needlessly sitting at a phantom light during drive time traffic. Multiply that times 15 seconds and its a lot of time and wasted fuel. Just saying....

And I understood the bicycle scenario. We all want those sensors to be in that happy medium somewhere.

I've tried the kickstand trick and the engine start trick. Usually I wait then proceed through with all due caution. :evilsmiley03:

 

[ShinyPartsUp]

For those that want to look up their local driving statutes:

local traffic laws by state

 

[OGRE]

I just looked through the South Carolina motor vehicle statutes (https://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t56c005.htm) and couldn't find anything pertaining to malfunctioning or inoperative traffic control devices. Something may be there, but I didn't see it.

SC doesn't seem to handle it as inoperative traffic control devices. They have a time delay.

Each state undoubtedly will have different language and details.

Section 56-5-970 (5)

(5) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, if a driver of a motorcycle or moped, or a bicycle rider, approaches an intersection that is controlled by a traffic-control device, the driver may proceed through the intersection on a steady red light only if the driver or rider, as the case may be: (a) comes to a full and complete stop at the intersection for one hundred twenty seconds; and
( B) exercises due care as provided by law, otherwise treats the traffic control device as a stop sign, and determines it is safe to proceed.

What I was getting at was that I couldn't find anything in the SC statutes that applied to the general issue of inoperative or malfunctioning traffic lights, like Bounce was describing. The new law allows motorcycles, mopeds, and bicycles to proceed, but there seems to be nothing about OTHER vehicles (like uh, cars?) and how they should proceed in the case of a malfunctioning signal. Maybe OGRE knows of something, but I didn't see it in the statutes I read.

I couldn't find the specific law governing a malfunctioning signal either. The rule is to treat it like a four way stop sign. But, I guess motorcycles failing to trip the sensor wouldn't fit. But, I did find this:

SECTION 16-15-60. Adultery or fornication. [sC ST SEC 16-15-60]

Any man or woman who shall be guilty of the crime of adultery or fornication shall be liable to indictment and, on conviction, shall be severally punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars nor more than five hundred dollars or imprisonment for not less than six months nor more than one year or by both fine and imprisonment, at the discretion of the court.

SECTION 16-15-70. "Adultery" defined. [sC ST SEC 16-15-70]

"Adultery" is the living together and carnal intercourse with each other or habitual carnal intercourse with each other without living together of a man and woman when either is lawfully married to some other person.

SECTION 16-15-80. "Fornication" defined. [sC ST SEC 16-15-80]

"Fornication" is the living together and carnal intercourse with each other or habitual carnal intercourse with each other without living together of a man and woman, both being unmarried

So Ya'll better not be screwin around in South Carolina! I have never heard of anyone being charged with this law :dribble:

 

[dakota11]

That's good news for a newb from Greenville SC. I recently added the '04 FJR to the garage. It's more likely to trip the sensor than my Husky.

 

[Violione]

I am told in Oregon if you find a sensor ignoring bikes you can contact ODOT and they will adjust sensitivity.

[SIZE=12pt]Wait a minute, back up here, ODOT's sensitivity can be adjusted? What are the settings, *** munch and curmudgeon? I vote we have ODOT's sensitivity turned down to curmudgeon... All those in favor say AYE! [/SIZE]

 

[odot]

Aye.....klowns....why'd you drag me into this? Next thing ya know my anus will get involved.