MSF instructor question

[myzen]

So I tried using the AE today for the "box" exercise and found it very difficult to keep it in the lines. As I was leaned over the clutch disengaged and I went into a free fall feeling. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[CHRIS_D]

So I tried using the AE today for the "box" exercise and found it very difficult to keep it in the lines. As I was leaned over the clutch disengaged and I went into a free fall feeling. Any advice would be appreciated.

I don't own an AE but I would think it would be important to keep the throttle roll on just a little bit to prevent the clutch from disengaging. When I do it on my A model, I don't use any throttle and pretty much just roll through it while under idle. This is when I wish our bikes didn't have the integrated brakes because you could easily just trail brake through it while applying that little bit of throttle needed to keep clutch engaged. GOOD LUCK!!

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Other aspects of that excercise can be equally (if not more?) important than throttle/clutch/brake control -- that is: counterbalancing (leaning the motorcycle beneath you) and turning your head way around to look where you want to go.

I admit to not trying an AE -- and there may be some special attention needed to that model's differences? But, often, paying close heed to the particular basic skills being addressed by the excercise pays dividends.

 

[myzen]

Other aspects of that excersize can be equally (if not more?) important than throttle/clutch/brake control -- that is: counterbalancing (leaning the motorcycle beneath you) and turning your head way around to look where you want to go.I admit to not trying an AE -- and there may be some special attention needed to that model's differences? But, often, paying close heed to the particular basic skills being addressed by the excersize pays dividends.

I do realize the necessity to pay attention to the basic skills addressed by the exercise and counterbalancing the motorcycle. However, as I am leaned over, with my head turned, feathering the rear brake (like I don on the Road Glide), the clutch disengages. If I had a regular clutch, I would "slip" it to gain the momentum. I don't seem to have the coordination down yet with the AE.

 

[SPORT]

Sounds like the proverbial torque converter is too high for slow maneuvering. I'd say you've stumbled upon an area of potential weakness for the AE. I would agree with, being an MSF instructor myself and teaching the ERC on my '05 FJR. I do clutch the box (in addition to counterweight and head turn). Throttles on most bikes can be twitchy and the friction zones covers ALL of that 'twitching'. With the AE model, I guess you might need to learn how to perform the box at a faster pace...if that's possible.

Now for a bit of fun...It seems the 2005 ABS models are infact better than others in that we have complete control over the engine to power output through the use of the friction zone. 2005 owners also do not have linked braking so we are free to trail brake as much as need to maintain that smooth, precise control.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hope you can teach us how AE pilots can successfully negociate the dreaded box.

Sport

 

[CHRIS_D]

Other aspects of that excersize can be equally (if not more?) important than throttle/clutch/brake control -- that is: counterbalancing (leaning the motorcycle beneath you) and turning your head way around to look where you want to go.I admit to not trying an AE -- and there may be some special attention needed to that model's differences? But, often, paying close heed to the particular basic skills being addressed by the excersize pays dividends.

I do realize the necessity to pay attention to the basic skills addressed by the exercise and counterbalancing the motorcycle. However, as I am leaned over, with my head turned, feathering the rear brake (like I don on the Road Glide), the clutch disengages. If I had a regular clutch, I would "slip" it to gain the momentum. I don't seem to have the coordination down yet with the AE.

Don't forget this isn't your HD. For one you don't have as much handlebar turning radius on FJR and two when you feather that rear brake you're also applying some front brake (intergrated) too. Which I'm suire you know what happens when you have the handlebars turned and squeeze the front brake :dribble: :dribble:

In fact when I have my riders do the box during a BRC I make sure that they don't touch the front brake or clutch, This has lowered the drops in EX 10 considerably.

 

[monk69]

Let's say you're entering the box to make a left circle.Just as you go in,make a quick right before you start the left,won't need to use the clutch,even if you had one.It'll go into a nice tight smooth left circle.

 

[Draggon Rider]

So I tried using the AE today for the "box" exercise and found it very difficult to keep it in the lines. As I was leaned over the clutch disengaged and I went into a free fall feeling. Any advice would be appreciated.

I was wondering about this also, in the "Ride like a Pro" DVD Motorman talks about using the throttle/friction zone/rear brake to control your speed and he can control his bike at 5 MPH. So with the electric clutch how in the devil can you control the bike at 5 MPH? I guess the AE isn't suppose to go slow...

 

[happyPuppy]

I can do it on my 2008 AE. I do it in 2nd gear and use throttle, and very light trail braking. I can do it really slow too. I learned how to something very similar on a 650 Burgman before and it works well. The things I learned that any "flaw" such as blipping the throttle and compensating with the clutch is not possible to do on the AE, it is either in gear or not.

 

[cougar8000]

Now for a bit of fun...It seems the 2005 ABS models are infact better than others in that we have complete control over the engine to power output through the use of the friction zone. 2005 owners also do not have linked braking so we are free to trail brake as much as need to maintain that smooth, precise control.
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Have to disappoint you but I am able to feather the rear brake in the U-Turn with out any issues :yahoo:

Trick is to lock the throttle at around 2500RPM or above, and I mean lock it. And feather the clutch all the way using counter balance and looking where you want to go. So, there :yahoo:

myzen,

I have never rode an AE, Can you try this on the parking lot for me going in the straight line first. Lock the throttle at 3RPM and use your REAR brake only to keep your speed as slow as possible. Let us know if your clutch would stay engaged.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

.... Lock the throttle at 3RPM and use your REAR brake only .....

I could be wrong, but I think those RPMs are going to be a bit too low :glare:

I see where you're going with this, Alex, and I agree. Keep the RPMs just high enough to keep the clutch engaged and use trail braking to slow the bike as needed.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

If it was just a 'slow ride' the AE's clutch could be "sacrificed" for control (throttle turned up a bit -- brakes being dragged) -- 'slow ride' contest winners often destroy their clutch in search of glory/trophy....!

But, in the figure 8 box, one needs to use the throttle for its valuable contribution to m/c control -- the delicate balance of throttle control and (maybe?) clutch slippage for picking the bike up when it tends to fall in.

It seems, then, that in the case of the AE all you've got is throttle control -- I guess? you'll need to get really good at that... :huh:

 

[cougar8000]

.... Lock the throttle at 3RPM and use your REAR brake only .....

I could be wrong, but I think those RPMs are going to be a bit too low :glare:

I see where you're going with this, Alex, and I agree. Keep the RPMs just high enough to keep the clutch engaged and use trail braking to slow the bike as needed.

Larry, you might be right. I just pulled that number from ... what ever that number is, you must maintain it steady.

 

[Tenchi]

I heard a few blokes saying that they just stick the bike in 2nd gear and idle it through with the odd trail braking as needed? I remember this being interesting, because despite having a torquey engine like mine I can't do that on my bike (it stalls if I try to do this and results in much cursing as I try to stop it from being sleepy). Maybe that's the difference with a big and small capacity bike?

 

[wfooshee]

I heard a few blokes saying that they just stick the bike in 2nd gear and idle it through with the odd trail braking as needed? I remember this being interesting, because despite having a torquey engine like mine I can't do that on my bike (it stalls if I try to do this and results in much cursing as I try to stop it from being sleepy). Maybe that's the difference with a big and small capacity bike?

Doesn't apply here. The question about the AE is that the AE auto-clutch is disengaged at idle, engaged at some magic RPM, and without the clutch lever, how do you control the friction zone? The clutch is programmed to respond to throttle input, engaging automatically depending on how much throttle you give it. My understanding is that it doesn't partially disengage, though; if you ease off and it gets too slow, the clutch disengages completely.

So: throttle enough to slip, but no more, and don't back off unless you want to disengage completely.

If I had somebody else's bike, I'd try it in 3rd or 4th, with enough revs to slip the **** out of it. Just to try.

 

[kulwen]

I can do the box with my AE. Technique is the key to the box on a AE. The whole butt check needs to be off the seat, push down on the outside footrest, get the head completely around, and turn the handle bars all the way. If, you skimp on the technique you are going to struggle.

It took me some time to figure this out. I need to maintain speed entering the box and keep the same speed. If, I go in a little fast and tap my rear brake to slow in the box before the first turn the bike seems to think I am coming to a stop and disengages the clutch. Then a little throttle roll on is a little to much clutch. If, I enter the box at the speed I want to make the turns at the clutch seems to stay partially engage and working the throttle is a lot like working a clutch. I can work the throttle and get the desired effect.

 

[myzen]

I can do the box with my AE. Technique is the key to the box on a AE. The whole butt check needs to be off the seat, push down on the outside footrest, get the head completely around, and turn the handle bars all the way. If, you skimp on the technique you are going to struggle.
It took me some time to figure this out. I need to maintain speed entering the box and keep the same speed. If, I go in a little fast and tap my rear brake to slow in the box before the first turn the bike seems takes this as I am coming to a stop and disengages the clutch. Then a little throttle roll on is a little to much clutch. If, I enter the box at the speed I want to make the turns at the clutch seems to stay partially engage and working the throttle is a lot like working a clutch. I can work the throttle and get the desired effect.

John, that is what I was looking for. I will continue to practice, got another class to teach this weekend (BRC). Where I can do the box all day on the GZ250.

 

[jameswilson]

Hi

Managed the box without any trouble. Run the engine RPM up to a point that the clutch is engaged and use the rear brake to create a "friction zone". Bike seems stable this way. As stated earlier 2,500 rpm may be about right, I haven't looked at the tach, but I know the RPM is significantly higher than idle.

 

[Tenchi]

It almost sounds like the technique used on a scooter or moped. They were told at our MSF course to bring the throttle to the point where the clutch starts to engage, then use the brake to control the speed.