MSF ?

[cougar8000]

I'm probably going to regret stating this, but as an MSF instructor, many times people take what is said literally with no common sense applied, hence always riding with the Hi beam on. Regarding parking lot speeds, when students complete the course, I remind them that (if they passed) they have demonstrated that day that they can satisfactorily control the motorcycle at parking lot speeds. Then comes the warning that 70 mph on the freeway is a whole nother' ball game and admonish them all to practice in parking lots and deserted streets at low speeds, gradually working up to higher speeds and more technical roads. On the finger braking issue, I too have owned sport bikes that one or two is enough, but we have to teach the cirriculum as printed and not deviate from it to stay consistent. As far as being told not to drag the rear brake, that is a personal opinion as I do not remember seeing anything in the range cards that prohibits dragging the rear brake, especially when performing in the "U turn box" (basically doing a figure 8). Heck, I sometimes drag the rear brake during demos when the bike is too high geared (Buell Blast) or the engine is not fully warmed up and needs a little help by slipping the clutch. IMHO, if a rider gets through the maneuver smoothly by dragging the rear brake, then she/he has demonstrated advanced (for their level) clutch control and should get a pat on the back. As with anything in life where something is being taught by **** sapiens, YMMV! Other instructors sound off, I know you're out there!

+1 I am an MSF certified in IL.

People hear what they want to hear.

+2 on four fingers.

+3 on draging the rear brake for slow turns. It does not say that we can't tell it to students and if done right works like a charm. When I do U-Turns, I always demo them at least 4 times, I use TW and rev the heck out of the engine. I keep it steady at about 2500+ rpm and control the speed mainly with clutch and a bit of rear brake. SHows damn well that it is all in the left hand control and not the right wrist. After lunch I come back and do more u-turns on my FJR and when I teach with one other instructor who has Elctra Glide with the trailer we do rodeo in the u-turn. Two big bikes at the same time in one box. Shows to our students that it does not have to be a small bike and gives them a bit of free entertainment

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

The BRC teaches counterbalancing in slow tight turns only....period.

Unfortunately, most threads that mention MSF turn into bashing threads. It would appear that there are too many states with less-than-adequate rider education programs and like other things associated with motorcycling, the actions a few idiots tarnish the reputation of those who go out of their way and give up lots of personal riding time to support rider education in states with better-than-adequate programs.

On behalf of the latter group, no offense taken.

 

[cougar8000]

I truly did not want this thread to turn into a MSF bashing thread. I feel that the couple, in our park, misunderstood the use of counterbalancing but before I started to correct someone else I wanted to make sure that I didn't have it wrong. I do think that the MSF does a lot of good and there is something for everyone to learn at one of their courses.
My wife and I are talking about taking one of their courses. For me after 40yrs of riding it is about time and for my wife this is a first in showing an interested in riding her own bike. This will be soooo cool.

If you can take a course another weekend. And do not show up for her course. It makes spouses nervous sometime. If you can't then at least stay away from her as much as you can and tell her to seek guidence from the instructor. it will benefit her in the long run.

Good luck.

Oh and please if any of you witness MSF rider coach/instructor teach incorrect information notify their program director at the minimum.

AS Larry said we do have bad apples and we need your help to weed them out. They do nobody good.

 

[Auburn]

quote]

If you can take a course another weekend. And do not show up for her course. It makes spouses nervous sometime. If you can't then at least stay away from her as much as you can and tell her to seek guidance from the instructor. it will benefit her in the long run.

Good luck.

Oh and please if any of you witness MSF rider coach/instructor teach incorrect information notify their program director at the minimum.

AS Larry said we do have bad apples and we need your help to weed them out. They do nobody good.

+1 Highly encourage this course. It is a great foundation to build from.

As a former MSF instructor in the late 90's (wanted to spend more time riding and less teaching), I always had great joy watching the lady who primarily rode on the back of the bike take the class with her husband. Almost always the lady would outscore her husband in the class because she would listen better, apply the lessons and pass the course, where the husband usually had so many bad habits that they usually failed or barely passed the course.

I highly recommend it to be taken every few years to tune up skills. I had many students that would come back each Spring to work on their skills and practice.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

I took MSF 19 years after I got my first street bike. I figured I might learn something. I did. It was a good course. They taught counterbalancing and stressed "For slow maneuvering, counterbalance. For normal road speeds look through the turn and lean with the bike."

Based on what's in the instruction and the book, your friends were confused...just my guess.

 

[Wingman]

I apolgize to all of the MSF instructors out there giving their time and experience. My post was in no way a bash against the MSF or its instructors. The problem I had was with a student that misunderstood what was meant by using the high beam. He took it to mean ALL the time, even after dark. I think the MSF classes are a great way for a new rider to learn the basics, and a much better alternative than taking the 10 question written test and going for a ride. (Perfectly legal here BTW)

I'm actually trying to encourage my wife to take a basis rider course, since she told me she would like to learn to ride. I taught her how to start and stop while riding around in a vacant parking lot, but I know she would learn much more from an instructor than from me.

David

 

[cougar8000]

David,

It is all good. We understand.

 

[dhalen32]

I'm a RiderCoach Trainer here in Nebraska. Here are my reactions to what has been discussed in this thread.

The couple you referenced must have misunderstood what they learned in their class. Counterbalancing is only actively taught on very slow, tight turns such as the U-turn box exercise mentioned above. There are some corners that we call perimeter turns where counterbalancing can also be practiced. All other cornering exercises in the curriculum would qualify as corners requiring you to lean with the motorcycle.

In the previous iteration of the curriculum I was taught to advocate high beam use during daylight hours to increase conspicuity. That also came with a caution to dip the headlights if you were annoying the person you were following. Daytime high beam use is no longer even mentioned in the latest version of the beginner's course. Like any other vehicle, high beam use at night is encouraged when no oncoming traffic can be blinded or when you are far enough behind the vehicle you are following.

Four finger brake use is advocated primarily as a good habit to develop. Another benefit is that it generally prevents over-revving the engine while actuating the front brake; something beginners have a tendency to do when they panic and roll their wrist rather than squeeze the lever using just their fingers. It also results in fewer finger injuries/amputations when a crash occurs on the range. I'm not a four finger brake user on the street or track but I always model that behavior when students see me ride demos on the range. I always cover the clutch on the range for the same reason.

While we don't actively coach rear brake only use during slow limited space maneuvering it is a tool in the bag of tricks you can pull out for people who won't use the friction zone or counterbalance during their time in the U-turn box.

I used to worry about couples taking a class together for many of the same reason's mentioned above. However, as I have mellowed with age I have found that the benefits usually outweigh the detriments and encourage it if both people really want to be there. The occasion when you have a problem usually is a result of the husband or boyfriend forcing their partner to do something they really don't want to do.

It's easy to bash the MSF, and they deserve it sometimes, but at least they are trying to do something to help new motorcyclists get a good start as well as provide an opportunity for experienced motorcyclists to periodically brush up their skills and continue to learn new ways to handle their motorcycles. They will be releasing a new course offering soon that is intended to bridge the gap between the Experienced Rider Course and track schools. Watch for news of it in your state. I will be running most of my state's RiderCoaches through it in the next couple of months getting them ready to teach it to the public. I attended a RiderCoach Trainer Preparation class in March to get me ready to train and certify RiderCoaches to teach this course. The two things that I took away from my week of training were how intimidating an eight foot wide six foot high cone barrier can be simulating a stalled vehicle to swerve around and a new method of cornering that goes beyond the classic outside-inside-outside path of travel taught for years in MSF courses.

Dave

 

[Captain B]

Dave - many thanks. I'll be looking for the new course.

FWIW - my wife and I took the Basic Course together. Since I had never been on a bike before, there was little danger of me trying to tell her how to do things and vice-versa. We both listened, and I consciously gave her plenty of "space" both on and off the course to mix with other riders. We studied together at night, and got up together at 5:00 AM. We also compared thoughts on things we heard or saw in class, which led to the decisions we made later about what bikes to get. I always kept in the front of my mind that the instuctors were in charge, and for the most part "pretended" we didn't know each other so that I wouldn't interfere with her learning, especially since we all learn differently. BTW - she maxed the course; I came in 2 points behind her.

 

[Auburn]

David,
It is all good. We understand.

+1

As a former MSF instructor, no offense taken. This brought out a good discussion.

 

[CAJW]

David,
It is all good. We understand.

+1

As a former MSF instructor, no offense taken. This brought out a good discussion.

Ditto! from a current instructor.