New 2008, First Questions

[luvtoride]

I try to attempt to slow down enough before entering a curve. (the old addage... slow in & fast out) I'm sure that I've trail braked w/o intending to trail brake... simply because I freaked myself by entering a curve too hot. I won't be reading up on trail braking because I believe that braking in a curve means that I didn't slow enough upon entry. It seems to me that braking in a curve is not good riding form.

My very first boo boo on the FJR was because of braking in a curve.

PS... I'm sorry for the thread jack. I'll try not to post in here, anymore.

 

[v65]

I try to attempt to slow down enough before entering a curve. (the old addage... slow in & fast out) I'm sure that I've trail braked w/o intending to trail brake... simply because I freaked myself by entering a curve too hot. I won't be reading up on trail braking because I believe that braking in a curve means that I didn't slow enough upon entry. It seems to me that braking in a curve is not good riding form.
My very first boo boo on the FJR was because of braking in a curve.

PS... I'm sorry for the thread jack. I'll try not to post in here, anymore.

Accck! You've sucked me into a conversation I didn't want to get into (the last one degraded into the silly range). The advantage to trail braking is that if need to apply more brake in the corner the bike won't stand up on you! It gives you a great advantage over the technique taught in the MSF course, but has been wrongly associated with only applying to the go fast group. Believe me I am no racer, but I am a convert.

 

[Danno]

I just don't think you can say "never use your front brake in a turn".

You're right - it should be "you shouldn't use *either* brake in a turn."

I've heard that way too often and I think poeple need to be aware that there are times when you need to brake in a turn.

If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn.

If you have control, braking in a turn is not that big of a deal.

But the point is, if you have control, you don't need to brake in a turn.

Your second point is kind of what I was getting at. "If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn." So let me rephrase. If you happen to get into a corner going too fast, and you need to slow down, you can certainly use your brakes while in a turn.

Danno

+1

I have absolutely no qualms about braking in turns if I need to. I think it's important for people to know that they CAN brake in turns, should the need arise. Just keep the concept of "traction budget" in mind. The more of your available traction you're using for cornering, the less remains available for braking.

Teaching new riders that they CAN'T use their brakes in turns is going to get someone in trouble. Those end up being the ones who stand the bike up (so that they are no longer turning), stomping the rear brake (they're afraid to grab a handful of front brake because they were taught to never lock up the front wheel), and going off the road. Of course, in right handers, that also implies crossing the oncoming lane. Not good, so practice and learn to use your brakes while cornering so that you're comfortable when the need arises.

dbx

Thanks for explaining that better than I did. I don't want any new riders to get advice that may not be true. Last year a friend of mine crashed into a guard rail. From the skid mark, it looks like he got on the rear brake too heavy and on his big Harley, that was not enough to slow him down. He did not have a lot of experience and maybe someone told him to not use the front brake in corners. I don't think it would have turned out much different if he would have grabbed too much front brake and lost traction in the front wheel. But if he was more experienced and could have controlled the front braking, he may have been able to slow down enough.

Danno

 

[JRO]

1. The throttle has maybe 1/8 - 1/4" of horizontal travel with a black washer floating on the bar on the left side of the throttle. Normal?
2. In getting a feel for the brakes in a parking lot, the rear brake seems noticeably ineffective -- I really have to push hard on the lever to bring the bike to a stop using it alone. Normal?

1. Yes. I'd bet it will quit 'floating', after you've used the bike a while.

2. I'm guessing here, but you already know about using the front brake vs. the rear. Right? When my bike was new, I noticed that the rear brake didn't break in, as soon as the front brakes. On an FJR, the brake pedal is semi-linked. You engage half the front brake, along with the rear, when you use the pedal. Since the front brake is most of your stopping power, and the brake you use most, the pads break in sooner.

The rear brake will gain more stopping power, with use a little use. Of course, even when it breaks in, it will never have the stopping power of the front, but that goes without saying.

 

[SEA-FJR]

Brakes will improve dramatically over the next few hundred miles if your bike is still brand new, especially the rear brake. I was at first afraid the brakes were insufficient for the bike when it was new, but with 1,400 miles on it now they work great, no complaints.

 

[Violione]

Throttle issue - Yes normal, will get better in time and/or by Grip Puppies - I love them especially if you have big hands.

Rear Break - much pressure is needed to stop if only using back break but not impossible! Remember that there are four FRONT pads connected to the rear break lever - trail breaking works well for me luvtoride - that's why you keep loosing me in the tweesties cause I'm a trail breaking fool and I forget to get back on the throttle.

Spongie things are normal, they're there to keep those control and electrical lines from chaffing on the radiator. Do Not Remove! h34r:

 

[scubatech]

Once those pads bed themselves into the rotors you will notice very strong brake performance. They pretty much all feel a little numb at first.

 

[MojaveFJR]

Congrats on the need ride. Couldn't ask for a better all around machine.
Ans to Q's.

1. Yes it is normal. Continue on.

2. Ahhh using the rear brake to stop. OLD SCHOOL my man, OLD SCHOOL. As you have noticed, there is more braking power up front than in the rear. Attempting to stop a bike of this size with the back brake is futile. Just like with sportbikes all the braking power is up front. I personally only use the rear brake on the straits and to trail through some turns. Which you have to really learn on this bike cause it is integrated with the front. And we all know, NO FRONT BRAKE WHILE IN THE TURN. So this to in normal, from my experience.

Excellent using a parking lot to get used to the bike.

Ride and enjoy... repeat as necessary and even when it is not necessary...

Why can't you use the front brake in a turn? What if you have to slow down? You must mean not to lock up the front brake.

Danno

Unwise to use the front brake in a turn.

you have the bike leaned over and can have a tendency to slide or tuck the front end depending on road condiitions,

Using the front brakes in a turn can cause the bike to stand straight up and head out of the turn. Most likely not in a direction favorable to the rider.

As with anything, not a hard fast rule, just a guidline. As they taught us in MSF and several track schools, get all your braking and gear changin done before you enter the turn. Professionals brake in a turn but then again, they are professionals. Have good medical, don't have to pay for their bike or their body to get fixed, really don't miss work cause of an injury, you get the point.

 

[gasportrider]

I'm surprised to hear firm rules against trail braking being offered here. I agree that getting your proper speed set before the corner entry is a desirable practice. However, it seems to me that every rider on serious sporting equipment riding at sporting speeds NEEDS to have the ability to use trail braking effectively. Even MSF teaches these skills as they are necessary for avoidance techniques.

The tendency to have a bike "stand up" while braking in a leaned over condition is easily managed by applying additional pressure on the inside bar. Gradually decreasing braking pressure as you approach the corner apex is a skill that will save your butt one fine day as is the ability to trail brake while leaned over and then rapidly stand the bike up for full ABS braking while still on a road surface. This is a skill that may save your LIFE. You can practice these techniques in a parking lot before your sport ride. Practice should include full application of the rear brake only, front brakes only, and full systems braking. I have followed my own advice and observe that the ABS system on the FJR is fantastic and I recommend that all riders PRACTICE using it. It is not designed for ABS use while in a leaned over condition. No gyroscopes and lean angle sensors just yet. That is where YOU get involved.

While trail braking techniques are standard fare for roadracers; IMO, they should be part of the repertoire for advanced street riders, as well. I know I can not run an elevated pace in the Appalachians without implementing these techniques.

Check out some advanced street riding techiques at: SportRider Riding Skills Series

 

[JRO]

How do you 'trailbrake' on a bike with semi-linked brakes? Every time you engage the rear brake, you also engage half the front brake. Trailing the rear brake on an FJR is impossible; you're merely applying partial front & full rear braking.

 

[dbx]

How do you 'trailbrake' on a bike with semi-linked brakes? Every time you engage the rear brake, you also engage half the front brake. Trailing the rear brake on an FJR is impossible; you're merely applying partial front & full rear braking.

Trail braking doesn't just mean applying the rear brake, so you trail brake on a bike with linked brakes the same as you would another bike with conventional unlinked brakes.

Simplified explanation from Wikipedia, "In applying this technique, motorcycle riders approach turns applying both front and rear brakes to reduce speed. As they enter the turn, they partially release the brakes, as to keep only partial brakes throughout the turn."

To the folks who say, "no thanks, I don't want to practice braking while turning because I'll never need it," I say they are one surprise away from wishing they had honed this skill. Ride long enough and you WILL encounter a surprise while turning, whether it's an animal, a child, a child's ball, a kid on a bicycle, a wayward shopping cart, a liquid spill, sand, a vehicle approaching in your lane, entering the corner too hot, and a few thousand other possibilities. In an emergency, you can only use the tools in your mental toolbox, the ones you've practiced. There usually isn't time for a "let me try this thing I read about and see what happens." Just sayin...

dbx

 

[JRO]

I see. You mean braking into a turn. Trailing or dragging the rear brake in a turn, used to mean just that. But, trailbraking means to brake into a turn.

It's tribalism. I hate that. Give a bunch of primitives the ability to use language, and they'll corrupt it into 'specialized' terminology as an initiation into their 'secret' society. - Commonly practiced by doctors, lawyers, zoologists, and concrete workers.

Oh, well.

In any event, I can brake into a turn. Even before and after one. Even during one. I can even brake, whilst going backwards... Is there a proper term for that, too?

 

[Subcritical]

I've been off bikes for years, and after my first three morning rides on the FJR, I have a couple of questions:
1. The throttle has maybe 1/8 - 1/4" of horizontal travel with a black washer floating on the bar on the left side of the throttle. Normal?

2. In getting a feel for the brakes in a parking lot, the rear brake seems noticeably ineffective -- I really have to push hard on the lever to bring the bike to a stop using it alone. Normal?

Thanks folks. This forum is a fantastic source of information!

Steve

1. Normal

2. Doesn't sound normal. My bike stops pretty well when using the rear brake. If I use the rear and front together, stopping is even better. If I use only the front, it is not as good as if I use the front and back together. I'd have your rear brake looked at by a qualified service person, IMHO.

 

[rainman]

OK.....a couple of comments.....

I have found EBC HH-Sintered brake pads offer better stopping ability on the FJR and every other bike on which I have installed them.

Yes, the rear braking will improve after some more miles.

Yes, I rarely use the rear brake in normal riding.

Trail-braking can be done with either the front-rear-or both brakes.

I generally try to stay off of the brakes while leaned over in a corner.....however.....on those occassions where I find my speed to be too much, I prefer to use the brakes (with consirable practice and caution) rather than accept the fact I am too fast and just crash.

 

[Spook]

I just don't think you can say "never use your front brake in a turn".

You're right - it should be "you shouldn't use *either* brake in a turn."

I've heard that way too often and I think poeple need to be aware that there are times when you need to brake in a turn.

If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn.

If you have control, braking in a turn is not that big of a deal.

But the point is, if you have control, you don't need to brake in a turn.

Your second point is kind of what I was getting at. "If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn." So let me rephrase. If you happen to get into a corner going too fast, and you need to slow down, you can certainly use your brakes while in a turn.

Danno

Flat lander? I see way too many nice streight black lines off the outside edge into the side of the Mt or off the drop off from people who break in a turn. Bike stands up, loose line, panic. Bike go BOOM. Best to never brake in turn if you can help it.

 

[Danno]

I just don't think you can say "never use your front brake in a turn".

You're right - it should be "you shouldn't use *either* brake in a turn."

I've heard that way too often and I think poeple need to be aware that there are times when you need to brake in a turn.

If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn.

If you have control, braking in a turn is not that big of a deal.

But the point is, if you have control, you don't need to brake in a turn.

Your second point is kind of what I was getting at. "If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn." So let me rephrase. If you happen to get into a corner going too fast, and you need to slow down, you can certainly use your brakes while in a turn.

Danno

Flat lander? I see way too many nice streight black lines off the outside edge into the side of the Mt or off the drop off from people who break in a turn. Bike stands up, loose line, panic. Bike go BOOM. Best to never brake in turn if you can help it.

Yes, certainly, BEST to never brake in a turn... IF YOU CAN HELP IT. My whole point was, what if you can't help it. The poor guy who started the thread was getting bad advice... like never do this or never do that. You shouldn't say never cause what if.... squirrel, deer, harley parts, etc.

Speaking of harley parts, I'll be out your way in SD after the Sturgis rally. Does the highway dept. or someone clean the roads after the rally?

Danno

 

[SCWatts]

I just don't think you can say "never use your front brake in a turn".

You're right - it should be "you shouldn't use *either* brake in a turn."

I've heard that way too often and I think poeple need to be aware that there are times when you need to brake in a turn.

If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn.

If you have control, braking in a turn is not that big of a deal.

But the point is, if you have control, you don't need to brake in a turn.

Your second point is kind of what I was getting at. "If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn." So let me rephrase. If you happen to get into a corner going too fast, and you need to slow down, you can certainly use your brakes while in a turn.

Danno

Flat lander? I see way too many nice streight black lines off the outside edge into the side of the Mt or off the drop off from people who break in a turn. Bike stands up, loose line, panic. Bike go BOOM. Best to never brake in turn if you can help it.

Yes, certainly, BEST to never brake in a turn... IF YOU CAN HELP IT. My whole point was, what if you can't help it. The poor guy who started the thread was getting bad advice... like never do this or never do that. You shouldn't say never cause what if.... squirrel, deer, harley parts, etc.

Speaking of harley parts, I'll be out your way in SD after the Sturgis rally. Does the highway dept. or someone clean the roads after the rally?

Danno

That's fine, guys, you all answered my questions and I appreciate it. My throttle's OK and if the rear brake doesn't improve, I'll have them check it out at 600 miles.

I'll remain "old school" and keep my habit of using both brakes as standard practice. And while I hope I never have to brake in a turn, if I do, hopefully I'll remember to only use the rear, and with maximum restraint.

You cats are great!

Steve

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

I'll remain "old school" and keep my habit of using both brakes as standard practice. And while I hope I never have to brake in a turn, if I do, hopefully I'll remember to only use the rear, and with maximum restraint.

There ya' go again.... another one of them 'always/never' things.

The rear brake is almost the same as no brake. If you need to slow down, or stop, you need to use the front brake -- 70%+ of your braking force is there. If you're leaned over in a turn you can straighten the bike and use the brakes you need (ideally the front) -- and even continue the turn. You can slow (too) in a turn (even while leaned over) however it's unwise to do so (changing any cornering dynamics requires some, extra, traction).

"old school" is OK as it applies to basics -- MSF teaches old school basics -- the laws of physics don't change much.

 

[SCWatts]

I'll remain "old school" and keep my habit of using both brakes as standard practice. And while I hope I never have to brake in a turn, if I do, hopefully I'll remember to only use the rear, and with maximum restraint.

There ya' go again.... another one of them 'always/never' things.

There rear brake is almost the same as no brake. If you need to slow down, or stop, you need to use the front brake -- 70%+ of your braking force is there. If you're leaned over in a turn you can straighten the bike and use the brakes you need (ideally the front) -- and even continue the turn. You can slow (too) in a turn (even while leaned over) however it's unwise to do so (changing any cornering dynamics requires some, extra, traction).

"old school" is OK as it applies to basics -- MSF teaches old school basics -- the laws of physics don't change much.

I don't know how I went there "again," but I appreciate your thoughts.

Steve

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Sorry, I didn't mean you personally -- it's just a phrase....