New 2008, First Questions

[Spook]

I just don't think you can say "never use your front brake in a turn".

You're right - it should be "you shouldn't use *either* brake in a turn."

I've heard that way too often and I think poeple need to be aware that there are times when you need to brake in a turn.

If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn.

If you have control, braking in a turn is not that big of a deal.

But the point is, if you have control, you don't need to brake in a turn.

Your second point is kind of what I was getting at. "If there are (assuming no emergency - road debris, accident, obstacl, etc) then you've made a msitake entering the turn." So let me rephrase. If you happen to get into a corner going too fast, and you need to slow down, you can certainly use your brakes while in a turn.

Danno

Flat lander? I see way too many nice streight black lines off the outside edge into the side of the Mt or off the drop off from people who break in a turn. Bike stands up, loose line, panic. Bike go BOOM. Best to never brake in turn if you can help it.

Yes, certainly, BEST to never brake in a turn... IF YOU CAN HELP IT. My whole point was, what if you can't help it. The poor guy who started the thread was getting bad advice... like never do this or never do that. You shouldn't say never cause what if.... squirrel, deer, harley parts, etc.

Speaking of harley parts, I'll be out your way in SD after the Sturgis rally. Does the highway dept. or someone clean the roads after the rally?

Danno

Na we just put crosses in the bodies and let them fertalize the place. The roads are in pretty good condition. Just watch the low side of corners after a big rain just like any place else. Most crashes out here are by idiots who bought the bike so they could be a big bad biker at the rally. You see all the HD's with less than 1000 miles on them these are from the idiots who managed to survive. Said idiots will almost stop at ever curve and then go as fast as the can till the next curve makes this place hell for people who know how to ride.

 

[krashdragon]

That's fine, guys, you all answered my questions and I appreciate it. My throttle's OK and if the rear brake doesn't improve, I'll have them check it out at 600 miles.

I'll remain "old school" and keep my habit of using both brakes as standard practice. And while I hope I never have to brake in a turn, if I do, hopefully I'll remember to only use the rear, and with maximum restraint.

You cats are great!

Steve

You may as well just drag your foot for all the good just using a rear brake does.

Yes, you can use the front brake in a turn, you just have to be careful about it.

I do it even on my Harley (not the best brakes, only one front disk... wish it had two!)

but sometimes just a little bit of slowing down is all you need.

Even did it on the FJR riding out west in the mountains (too much great scenery to look at!)

but very carefully. OTOH, I learned how to ride in the flatlands, so I'm extra careful on any twisites.

Most of the time I use both brakes, but in slow or stop and go traffic I just use the front and engine brake.

Mary

 

[DailyCommuter]

Although the excessive quoting is a bit tedious to scroll through, I love these types of threads, I learn more better this way.

I have done corners both ways,

When I am in good form I have slowed and shifted before the turn and gassed out of the apex,

When I have gotten the ultimate pucker in a corner was when I went in too hot on an unfamilliar road, and had to lean it extra hard, the main thing is not to focus on braking, its not to get caught up in a target fixation trap and look at the edge of the road, because you will surely go where you look, concentrate on a line that will get you out of the turn, and look there,

 

[SCWatts]

You may as well just drag your foot for all the good just using a rear brake does.

Yes, you can use the front brake in a turn, you just have to be careful about it.

I do it even on my Harley (not the best brakes, only one front disk... wish it had two!)

but sometimes just a little bit of slowing down is all you need.

Even did it on the FJR riding out west in the mountains (too much great scenery to look at!)

but very carefully. OTOH, I learned how to ride in the flatlands, so I'm extra careful on any twisites.

Most of the time I use both brakes, but in slow or stop and go traffic I just use the front and engine brake.

Mary

Beginning in 2006, the FJR has utilized the Unified Braking System; applying front brake only means you're using only 75% (6 of 8) front brake pistons. One of the rear brake pistons is also applied. Applying only the rear brake means you're using 25% (2 of 8) of the front brake pistons and the second rear brake piston.

So in order to use 100% of your front brake on a 2006+ FJR, you must also press the rear brake pedal. I do not understand folks who say they "never" or "almost never" press the rear brake pedal. In order to gain maximum stopping power, you must apply both brakes. In a late-model FJR, you must apply both brakes in order to use all of the front brake. I understand it in Mary's example of stop and go traffic, but otherwise, it seems like you're developing a bad habit that can easily get you into trouble in an emergency. When an extra foot of stopping power would have kept you out of the path of that semi, which you would have gained had you by habit also pressed the rear brake lever . . . .

Steve

 

[mr.paul]

I have been making it a habit for a long time to always use both brakes. I figure that when maximum puckerage is reached, I won't want to be trying to make up my mind on which brake to use at an intersection or a turn. Use them both all the time together and you will have it as "instinct". Now, having said that...

A number of times I have been a bit too hot in a corner and gently added a bit o' rear brake to settle things and slow just a tad. It does work. Same goes for both brakes applied. Practicing this skill often is the only way you will reduce the tendency for bad things to happen.

You must have a strategy for scrubbing off speed in a corner. If you have the room, stand up and then brake. If you don't, then you must know how to take just a bit off. Look at your exit. This can't be repeated enough. Simply saying don't ever apply brakes in a turn is ignorant (no offense). It will happen to you.

Having an FJR made things a bit easier though. I have a bike that can always exceed my abilities so I know I can always dig deeper. Also, having that kind of power available means that I have slowed down how fast I enter corners, across the board. I can always fly out of them with a simple twist of the wrist. WooHoo!

paul from Minnesota

 

[JRO]

I do not understand folks who say they "never" or "almost never" press the rear brake pedal.

It's the antithesis of the amature, mostly cruiser guys, who 'almost never' use their front brake. To prove they know what they're doing, and not be lumped with the "automobile-minded, foot pedal crowd", there is a tendency to proclaim an almost 'exclusive' use of the front brake.

Most everybody riding an FJR knows how to use both the brakes. However, in daily riding, where I slow down/gear down approaching a stoplight or stopsign, ect., I sometimes only use the front brake. Hey, I'm almost stopped, already, and it only takes a touch to bring the bike to a halt. This is hardly a 'braking situation', even though it is bad form. Under normal conditions, the gears and the throttle take care of most of the deceleration required.

My guess is, this is what many of the 'front brakers' mean, when stating they rarely use the rear brake. What they actually mean, is they rarely need to use the full braking capacity, available.

If you truly never use the rear brake, because you're avoiding it, then you're not as bad as the 'rear brake only' folks, but your skill set could use improvement.

On the other hand, 3 out of 5 pedagogues use acrylic lacquer.

 

[Harald]

Beginning in 2006, the FJR has utilized the Unified Braking System; applying front brake only means you're using only 75% (6 of 8) front brake pistons. One of the rear brake pistons is also applied. Applying only the rear brake means you're using 25% (2 of 8) of the front brake pistons and the second rear brake piston.Steve

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the the brakes are only linked rear to front. In other words, applying the front brake does not apply any rear brake. That was my understanding when reading the gen II specs because I specifically remember thinking, "awesome, I can do those smokey burnouts with this bike!"

 

[JRO]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the the brakes are only linked rear to front. In other words, applying the front brake does not apply any rear brake. That was my understanding when reading the gen II specs because I specifically remember thinking, "awesome, I can do those smokey burnouts with this bike!"

Correct.

Go to the dragstrip, and when you're staging, you definately can heat that rear tire.

The rear brake pedal is partially linked to the front. The front is not linked to the rear.

 

[Danno]

Beginning in 2006, the FJR has utilized the Unified Braking System; applying front brake only means you're using only 75% (6 of 8) front brake pistons. One of the rear brake pistons is also applied. Applying only the rear brake means you're using 25% (2 of 8) of the front brake pistons and the second rear brake piston.Steve

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the the brakes are only linked rear to front. In other words, applying the front brake does not apply any rear brake. That was my understanding when reading the gen II specs because I specifically remember thinking, "awesome, I can do those smokey burnouts with this bike!"

I think that must be the case. The other day with the bike on the center stand, I had the bike in first gear, wheel spinning, applied front brake hard but rear wheel did not slow. So the front brake must not be linked to the back, but the back is linked to the front.

Danno

 

[krashdragon]

Oh believe me, most of the time I use BOTH brakes. Especially with the traffic here in the DFW Metroplex...

In slow stop and go traffic, I mostly use the front brake, and also leave distance between me and whatever's in front of me.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather not have to use the full braking power of any bike all/most of the time. I ride like a wuss, anyway.

You're right, saying ... "I never use" front or rear, whatever.... leads to Ouch's at the very least.

But I think the main point was that you can use the brakes in a curve, how much depends on the circumstance and the rider.

Wish I still had my FJR.... it's really hard to find anything nearly as good that's small enuf for me.

Mary

 

[SCWatts]

Beginning in 2006, the FJR has utilized the Unified Braking System; applying front brake only means you're using only 75% (6 of 8) front brake pistons. One of the rear brake pistons is also applied. Applying only the rear brake means you're using 25% (2 of 8) of the front brake pistons and the second rear brake piston.Steve

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the the brakes are only linked rear to front. In other words, applying the front brake does not apply any rear brake. That was my understanding when reading the gen II specs because I specifically remember thinking, "awesome, I can do those smokey burnouts with this bike!"

Harald, I think you're right. I was basing the front to rear off a review I read of the 2006. However, looking at Yamaha's site, I see this: "Standard equipment Unified Braking System w/ABS: The front brake lever activates six of the eight front braking pistons; the rear brake pedal activates two rear pistons and the other two front pistons—for balanced anti-lock braking in all conditions."

So, using front brake lever only activates 75% of the front brake. Using rear brake pedal only activates 25% of the front brake and 100% of the rear.

Steve

 

[mcatrophy]

...So, using front brake lever only activates 75% of the front brake. Using rear brake pedal only activates 25% of the front brake and 100% of the rear.

Steve

Since you can activate the ABS on the front brake on a dry road without touching the rear brake, I'm not sure what the relevance of your 75% statement is :huh: . (Or should I wait until Friday before asking? )

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

...So, using front brake lever only activates 75% of the front brake. Using rear brake pedal only activates 25% of the front brake and 100% of the rear.

Steve

Since you can activate the ABS on the front brake on a dry road without touching the rear brake, I'm not sure what the relevance of your 75% statement is :huh: . (Or should I wait until Friday before asking? )

I think 'SCWatts' use of the word "only" may be what's being referenced?

I think I get your point? 75% of the FJR's total braking system is maximum braking. Since, the rear brake will contribute 0 or almost 0 -- chances are it'll be in the air -- in a panic stop? And, once ABS is activated -- that's the traction limit -- 75% is maximum.

The FJR has more brake capacity, pads, calipers, rotors, than it can effectively use.

 

[jeff62]

I'm surprised to hear firm rules against trail braking being offered here. I agree that getting your proper speed set before the corner entry is a desirable practice. However, it seems to me that every rider on serious sporting equipment riding at sporting speeds NEEDS to have the ability to use trail braking effectively. Even MSF teaches these skills as they are necessary for avoidance techniques.
The tendency to have a bike "stand up" while braking in a leaned over condition is easily managed by applying additional pressure on the inside bar. Gradually decreasing braking pressure as you approach the corner apex is a skill that will save your butt one fine day as is the ability to trail brake while leaned over and then rapidly stand the bike up for full ABS braking while still on a road surface. This is a skill that may save your LIFE. You can practice these techniques in a parking lot before your sport ride. Practice should include full application of the rear brake only, front brakes only, and full systems braking. I have followed my own advice and observe that the ABS system on the FJR is fantastic and I recommend that all riders PRACTICE using it. It is not designed for ABS use while in a leaned over condition. No gyroscopes and lean angle sensors just yet. That is where YOU get involved.

While trail braking techniques are standard fare for roadracers; IMO, they should be part of the repertoire for advanced street riders, as well. I know I can not run an elevated pace in the Appalachians without implementing these techniques.

Check out some advanced street riding techiques at: SportRider Riding Skills Series

+1

It's so much fun to read the "never do... <insert activity here>" mantra's. Riding takes a toolbox of skills folks, and trail braking is one of them. It's quite effective when used in the right situation. Someone else here mentioned a traction budget. Yep, exactly.

Those that aren't comfortable with <insert skill here> might consider practicing the skill over time -- there will be a situation where trail braking, in this case, will be effective. They should also refrain inaccurately instructing riders looking for good info.

 

[SCWatts]

...So, using front brake lever only activates 75% of the front brake. Using rear brake pedal only activates 25% of the front brake and 100% of the rear.

Steve

Since you can activate the ABS on the front brake on a dry road without touching the rear brake, I'm not sure what the relevance of your 75% statement is :huh: . (Or should I wait until Friday before asking? )

I give! The rear brake pedal is only there to serve as a footrest!

 

[rfulcher]

I got sucked into this thread, however the don’t brake in turns stuff got to me.

Okay I confess:

I brake before turns with front and rear or just front.

I brake in turns with front and rear brakes, but mostly just front.

I seldom use the rear brake by itself, why would I?

If I can't brake in a turn while leaned over I can never make a mistake with entry speed or I will crash. If I go into a turn too hot and "stand it up and brake" oops no room to stand it up and brake go boom.

I have a limited amount of traction. I can use it to turn, brake, or brake and turn. But I can never use more than the fixed and limited traction or I go boom. Sometimes I brake leaned over, sometimes I have to be smooth and stay with the lean because brakes, shifting, even twitching in fear can disturb the bike and cost traction that I don't have. If I make a habit of using all available traction I will eventually need more traction than is available and then I will fall.

However turning at low parking lot speeds and using the front brake is a good way to drop a bike. I have to make myself use the rear brake while making very low speed maneuvers. Front brake on dirt and gravel tends to be kind of sketchy. The photographers up in the mountains see a fair number of dropped bikes when guys pull off the road to talk and use the front brake at low speed on dirt of gravel.

 

[mcatrophy]

I got sucked into this thread, however the don’t brake in turns stuff got to me.
Okay I confess:

I brake before turns with front and rear or just front.

I brake in turns with front and rear brakes, but mostly just front.

I seldom use the rear brake by itself, why would I?

If I can't brake in a turn while leaned over I can never make a mistake with entry speed or I will crash. If I go into a turn too hot and "stand it up and brake" oops no room to stand it up and brake go boom.

I have a limited amount of traction. I can use it to turn, brake, or brake and turn. But I can never use more than the fixed and limited traction or I go boom. Sometimes I brake leaned over, sometimes I have to be smooth and stay with the lean because brakes, shifting, even twitching in fear can disturb the bike and cost traction that I don't have. If I make a habit of using all available traction I will eventually need more traction than is available and then I will fall.

However turning at low parking lot speeds and using the front brake is a good way to drop a bike. I have to make myself use the rear brake while making very low speed maneuvers. Front brake on dirt and gravel tends to be kind of sketchy. The photographers up in the mountains see a fair number of dropped bikes when guys pull off the road to talk and use the front brake at low speed on dirt of gravel.

That's got to be one of the best summaries of motorcycle braking that I've seen. Agree totally.

 

[02zx9r]

[quote name='Danno' post='447967' date='Jul 7 2008, 10:57 +1

I have absolutely no qualms about braking in turns if I need to. I think it's important for people to know that they CAN brake in turns, should the need arise. Just keep the concept of "traction budget" in mind. The more of your available traction you're using for cornering, the less remains available for braking.

Teaching new riders that they CAN'T use their brakes in turns is going to get someone in trouble. Those end up being the ones who stand the bike up (so that they are no longer turning), stomping the rear brake (they're afraid to grab a handful of front brake because they were taught to never lock up the front wheel), and going off the road. Of course, in right handers, that also implies crossing the oncoming lane. Not good, so practice and learn to use your brakes while cornering so that you're comfortable when the need arises.

dbx

Some "light" braking in a curve = ok in my book. I do disagree w/ the above. In MSF, they TEACH you to stand the bike up b4 applying heavy brake.

Keep in mind that applying brakes in a curve will "force" the bike to stand up (if you first do not lose traction)... whether you're expecting it or not.

that is what I was tought too, if in a cornor try and stand the bike up as much as possible then apply brakes.