New Owners change your oil
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shu
Well-known member
yeah, pickaxe, that was the one. you know you're driving english when the light switch has three positions: dim, flicker, and off.
still, i miss the little roller skate. you couldn't drag a knee (as if i was some kinda squid), but if your arm was dangling out the side, you might file your nails. a hard corner at 40 felt like 100.
shu's rules #4: "never sell a tool or a toy. at some point you will regret it." B)
P
pickax
Guest
My cousin had a MG midget, I remember feeling the "G"s in the twistie roads in Maine. Great memories!! I'll bet we all wish we had a warehouse full of our old toys
LOL. I shoulda known better than to even read an oil thread. Shame on me for expressing a thought before the annointed. I'll fix mine when it breaks, do maintenance roughly when the the manual suggests. I will NOT be giving my bike a human name... for obvious reasons. My sincere thanks to those who saw that I insulted no one, only expressed an opinion that stuck in the craw of the anal retentive. (Now, you see, you HAVE earned and received an insult.)
And get this: I don't even own an FJR yet. I'm going to look at one with intent to buy as soon as it gets to the dealer. IF my lady likes the seat.... it's going home with us. My current bike is the highest mile of it's make/model in existence, but I got it when it was first released as a new model, so I won't be doing that again.
Looking back, soon as I posted anything on-line about my current bike some shjthead came along telling me I wasn't riding it right and I was going to ruin it. Guess what? I'm still riding mine, the shjthead's bike still has only 20k miles or so on it... owners have come and gone... dozens of bikes with perfectly changed oil and highly modified are now at the recyclers because they crashed them out... something I'd wish on no one.
You all please ride safe and have fun. I'll return when and if appropriate... but don't expect me to walk on eggshells. It's not my nature, but I mean no harm.
And get this: I don't even own an FJR yet. I'm going to look at one with intent to buy as soon as it gets to the dealer. IF my lady likes the seat.... it's going home with us. My current bike is the highest mile of it's make/model in existence, but I got it when it was first released as a new model, so I won't be doing that again.
Looking back, soon as I posted anything on-line about my current bike some shjthead came along telling me I wasn't riding it right and I was going to ruin it. Guess what? I'm still riding mine, the shjthead's bike still has only 20k miles or so on it... owners have come and gone... dozens of bikes with perfectly changed oil and highly modified are now at the recyclers because they crashed them out... something I'd wish on no one.
You all please ride safe and have fun. I'll return when and if appropriate... but don't expect me to walk on eggshells. It's not my nature, but I mean no harm.
I'm curious, if this is the only reason to change your oil why would you change it at 600 miles? Surely, the oil is not used up in that short of time.
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Mark G
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Dang. This is an excellent point. Those bikes are shipped in container ships, which go up and down in the waves. I bet the oil sloshes around enough to cause it to curdle. Would you put buttermilk in your engine?It wont be long untill we hear about changing the oil at 000 because of the ocean monster mucking up the oil before the bike hits the dock.
evil_henchman
Well-known member
The particles I saw in my oil the first time I changed it (at about 50 miles) looked just like the moly I've seen in lots and lots of new engines. Boy was I not worried.
The manufacturer also recommends you take your bike to an authorized dealer for any repairs.
The manufacturer prints whatever they feel will protect their ass, not science or engineering.
I'm not arguing either. Interesting ideas Dan, but people don't buy off on what the manufacturer says.
Oil will not doubt last 5000 or more miles, but people like to baby their ride.
It is all piece of mind and taking extra care, that's it.
Oil has been discussed on all the FJR forums to death, and we have heard it all.
This place is full of rhetoric and cynicism. Enjoy.
The manufacturer prints whatever they feel will protect their ass, not science or engineering.
I'm not arguing either. Interesting ideas Dan, but people don't buy off on what the manufacturer says.
Oil will not doubt last 5000 or more miles, but people like to baby their ride.
It is all piece of mind and taking extra care, that's it.
Oil has been discussed on all the FJR forums to death, and we have heard it all.
This place is full of rhetoric and cynicism. Enjoy.
TestPilot
Well-known member
Well, at least the FACTS on synthetic oil can be found here: https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=8563
C&C
Well-known member
That's why you read all the crap that's out there, weigh in all the facts for yourself, and do what you think is best or at least warranted in your particular case. There should be no hurt feelings on this thread, just fodder for debate. If you want to call b.s., fine, keep it to yourself; just present your arguement, after all it pretty much comes down to only an opinion anyway.
S76
Well-known member
Most of the "Shinny" stuff you see at the first oil change was intentionally put in there by Yamaha and not a result of manf. debris. It is the coating on the plain bearings for the crankshaft. A new plain bearing has a silver looking coating that can actually be scratched off with your finger nail. It is this coating that you are seeing in the oil when you see all the little "sparkles." You need to use a light to see them sometimes, or you may see them swirl in the drain bucket. The point here being the bearing manf. put this coating on the bearings so it's obviously not harmful. I can't remember the reason for the silver coating but it has something to do with plain bearing break in. So no need for major concern trying to get out the shinny stuff the manf. put in there for a reason. It's not really manf. debris. And the fact that it is suspended in the oil and not in the filter tells you it is less than (?) one or two microns in size. No harm there. The filter will remove anything harmfull.
I also changed engine oil @ 100 miles, both oils at 450 miles, (synthetic in the rear) and both again at 3000 miles, (synthetic in both). Not that I recomend that, it just makes me feel better and the bike does not seem to complain.
I also changed engine oil @ 100 miles, both oils at 450 miles, (synthetic in the rear) and both again at 3000 miles, (synthetic in both). Not that I recomend that, it just makes me feel better and the bike does not seem to complain.
panthercity
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gr8eyes
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When's Jestal going to show up? I always enjoyed his insight.
Fallen Jim Rides again
Well-known member
+1Most of the "Shinny" stuff you see at the first oil change was intentionally put in there by Yamaha and not a result of manf. debris. It is the coating on the plain bearings for the crankshaft. A new plain bearing has a silver looking coating that can actually be scratched off with your finger nail. It is this coating that you are seeing in the oil when you see all the little "sparkles." You need to use a light to see them sometimes, or you may see them swirl in the drain bucket. The point here being the bearing manf. put this coating on the bearings so it's obviously not harmful. I can't remember the reason for the silver coating but it has something to do with plain bearing break in. So no need for major concern trying to get out the shinny stuff the manf. put in there for a reason. It's not really manf. debris. And the fact that it is suspended in the oil and not in the filter tells you it is less than (?) one or two microns in size. No harm there. The filter will remove anything harmfull.
I also changed engine oil @ 100 miles, both oils at 450 miles, (synthetic in the rear) and both again at 3000 miles, (synthetic in both). Not that I recomend that, it just makes me feel better and the bike does not seem to complain.
Thanks for saving me the typing
Still, I love the oil threads and occasionally start one of my own. Remember my obsession over fork oil?
Which BTW panned out really well for me. Love the new suspension. Oops off topic :huh:
JamesK
Got to ride
Saw a reference to this on the FJR Yahoo Groups list yesterday
Drive Shaft Gear Oil
Designed specifically for use with the FJR1300/1300A. Provides superior heat-resistance and protection.
*Please refer to your authorized Yamaha dealer for pricing. One FJR owner said he paid around $31 for a 500ml Bottle
Part #: 907-9ESH0-01-00
https://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/apparel/...610/detail.aspx
sleddoc
Well-known member
In the time I have spent reading all this crap I could have changed my oil, gear lube and gone on a 50 mile ride. :banned:
panthercity
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Another one of those pesky translation problems rears its ugly head...
I just had to check in this turning into an oil thread and all....LOL.
From reading all these opinions I would say that there is a case to argue for most all of them at one time or another. Depending on your point of view you could bring up examples of each.
I have seen LOTS of new engines broken in by various schedules and with various oils and lubricants. LOTS of them. 150 in one study alone that were torn completely down and thoroughly analyzed. Never saw any data or trend indicating an immediate oil change would help the life of the engine.
Couple of things to consider. Most all manufacturers use some sort of ZDP rich assembly lube on critical wear surfaces. This small volume of assembly lube will spike the factory oil fill with extra ZDP. So, while there is usually no "special break-in oil" the oil in the engine originally likely does have more ZDP in it to protect against wear during the break-in period. Getting rid of it too soon will take away some of that protection, although it probably doesn't really matter as the main break-in of mating surfaces occurs very rapidly in the first few minutes of operation. Anything after that is pretty minor, generally.
If properly fitted, bearings and the crank surface do not "break-in". I have seen brand spanking new engines run immediately at full throttle for 2 hours at peak RPM/smoking hot oil/smoking hot coolant and the bearings look absolutely like brand new. You couldn't tell that they had been run in most all cases. The crank never touches the bearing if the clearances are correct and the oil film is sufficient.
This is important because any debris in the oil is meaningless as long as it is smaller than the oil film thickness. 35 micron particles floating around in the oil will cause absolutely no harm if the oil film thickness is 50 microns. There is no pressure to imbed the particles into the bearings and no clearance small enough to trap them. This is important to realize because every engine would fail immediately if the "debris" in the oil were to be trapped in the bearings. So a lot of what you might "see" in the form of metallic looking debris in the oil really is pretty harmless since it is so small.
Remember, oil from the sump is unfiltered. That oil will go thru the filter before it goes back to the bearings and get any particles large enough to cause a problem removed. The rest won'd hurt anything. That is also why the most important time for a filter is during the first few moments of the engines life by a wide wide margin. Makes it sort of funny to hear people obcessing over which filter is best when they are putting it on the engine long after the "best" filter is needed. That is why the OEM filter is usually the "best" filter as the OEM knows it had better be the best to get the engine thru the first few moments of breakin.
Almost all, if not all, the breakin debris comes from the piston rings burnishing the cylinder walls. Nothing to speak of comes from the bearings and crank. Maybe a tiny bit from the piston skirts but piston skirts, like bearings, ride on an oil film and rarely if ever show ANY sign of contact at all for thousands of miles. Microscopic aluminum debris might show from the piston ring lands as the most important breakin feature is the burnishing of the ring sides to the sides of the ring lands in the piston. No much material removed here but there is polishing and mating of the sides of the rings and the sides of the ring lands during breakin.
Some debris may be generated during breakin from the gear box of a bike. I suspect that most of what anyone sees in motorcycle breakin oil is the particles from the clutch plates burnishing the metal clutch plates in the clutch assembly and knocking any "burrs" off the splines in the clutch drums, outer and inner. That can definitely create shiny metal debris.
BTW, most all surfaces mentioned here that might create debris are aluminum and aluminum debris, especially microscopic 30 micron particles, are pretty much benign anyway. Since the bearings are aluminum, anyway, any imbedment of aluminum particles causes little or now harm. Imbedment of cast iron or steel particles can certainly mar the crank and erode the crank surface if the oil film gets thin enough....but there isn't much of that being generated in a bike engine if any at all.
Oils, assembly lubes, machined surface finishes, tolerances, etc. from all manufacturing operations are dramatically improved since the old-wives tales of breakin requirements were generated by our dads and grand-dads in the 40's and 50's and such. Most of those old stories just do not fly in todays engines.
Per an earlier comment.....spark plugs can and easily do last 100,000 miles or far longer these days. Dual platinum electrodes and unleaded fuel has made the spark plug a virutal life time part. I have seen them go that far and far many many times. Not that the occsional one might not be damaged from installation, fouling due to another problem or something, but the vast vast majority will run forever without being removed.
Similarily for oils , long change intervals and oil life monitors. No manufacturer actually practices "planned obselescence" and no one recommends extended drain intervals or break in oil changes that might harm the engine. To think otherwise is rediculous. The fact is that more damage is done to the vehicle fleet in general from oil changes, putting the wrong oil in, upselling the "customer" with un-necessary additives and treatments, etc. then would ever occur due to longer change intervals. Every time someone goes under the hood of the average customers car a risk is taken. The only way to prevent or minimize this risk is to keep the hood closed and keep the car out of the dealer/oil change depot. That minimizes exposure to upselling additives, the wrong lubricants, poor service procedures, etc. An often hidden and un-discussed reason for longer change intervals.
Is anyone going to hurt their FJR by an early and repeated oil change...?? No. Is is necessary? No. If there was a particular problem with breakin or necessity for unusual service I suspect that would have been addressed by the OEM with a design change, additional assembly lube, etc. It is more a "feel good" sort of thing but it isn't likely to do any harm except wear out the threads of the oil drain plug.
Rad does make a good point about loosening and retightening the oil drain plug early on, in my opinion. If the plug is overtorqued by Yamaha for some reason or the threads damaged, it would theoretically be good to break it loose and retighten (not so tight) before any microscopic galvanic corrosion occurs at the steel/aluminum thread interface that could cause additional damage. I have never seen any data to back this up, by the way, and I have looked at a lot of aluminum pans with steel plugs on car engines. It just makes common sense, though.
I ran my engine to 2000 miles and changed the oil and filter. Oil looked perfectly fine. No sign of debris or metallics other than a trace in the oil that settled at the bottom of the pan. That might be machining debris from assembly that is very benign as it just lies in the bottom of the pan anyway. Cut the filter open. Trace of debris in the filter. Nothing unusual at all. Certainly no "metallic oil" or huge amount of debris. Must have gotten another "Team Yamaha" engine...LOL.
Ever look at your oil from the Briggs and Stratton on your lawn mower. Just full of metallics. Yet the engine runs fine with no oil filter yet. Tribute to the power of the oil film thickness and the fact that the oil film thickness is thicker than any of the particles you see. So, they do absolutely nothing.
It is amazing at the emotion involved with oil discussions. I find oil interesting because of what I have learned about it and how the facts differ so significantly from what people believe and how fervent they are in their beliefs. I think this is mostly because changing the oil and "selecting" the correct oil is one of the few things left to an owner of an engine so many take that responsibility to the religious level. Just ask an amsoil true believer....LOL.
These "experts" wouldn't be the morons from "Two Guys Garage" would they...???
From reading all these opinions I would say that there is a case to argue for most all of them at one time or another. Depending on your point of view you could bring up examples of each.
I have seen LOTS of new engines broken in by various schedules and with various oils and lubricants. LOTS of them. 150 in one study alone that were torn completely down and thoroughly analyzed. Never saw any data or trend indicating an immediate oil change would help the life of the engine.
Couple of things to consider. Most all manufacturers use some sort of ZDP rich assembly lube on critical wear surfaces. This small volume of assembly lube will spike the factory oil fill with extra ZDP. So, while there is usually no "special break-in oil" the oil in the engine originally likely does have more ZDP in it to protect against wear during the break-in period. Getting rid of it too soon will take away some of that protection, although it probably doesn't really matter as the main break-in of mating surfaces occurs very rapidly in the first few minutes of operation. Anything after that is pretty minor, generally.
If properly fitted, bearings and the crank surface do not "break-in". I have seen brand spanking new engines run immediately at full throttle for 2 hours at peak RPM/smoking hot oil/smoking hot coolant and the bearings look absolutely like brand new. You couldn't tell that they had been run in most all cases. The crank never touches the bearing if the clearances are correct and the oil film is sufficient.
This is important because any debris in the oil is meaningless as long as it is smaller than the oil film thickness. 35 micron particles floating around in the oil will cause absolutely no harm if the oil film thickness is 50 microns. There is no pressure to imbed the particles into the bearings and no clearance small enough to trap them. This is important to realize because every engine would fail immediately if the "debris" in the oil were to be trapped in the bearings. So a lot of what you might "see" in the form of metallic looking debris in the oil really is pretty harmless since it is so small.
Remember, oil from the sump is unfiltered. That oil will go thru the filter before it goes back to the bearings and get any particles large enough to cause a problem removed. The rest won'd hurt anything. That is also why the most important time for a filter is during the first few moments of the engines life by a wide wide margin. Makes it sort of funny to hear people obcessing over which filter is best when they are putting it on the engine long after the "best" filter is needed. That is why the OEM filter is usually the "best" filter as the OEM knows it had better be the best to get the engine thru the first few moments of breakin.
Almost all, if not all, the breakin debris comes from the piston rings burnishing the cylinder walls. Nothing to speak of comes from the bearings and crank. Maybe a tiny bit from the piston skirts but piston skirts, like bearings, ride on an oil film and rarely if ever show ANY sign of contact at all for thousands of miles. Microscopic aluminum debris might show from the piston ring lands as the most important breakin feature is the burnishing of the ring sides to the sides of the ring lands in the piston. No much material removed here but there is polishing and mating of the sides of the rings and the sides of the ring lands during breakin.
Some debris may be generated during breakin from the gear box of a bike. I suspect that most of what anyone sees in motorcycle breakin oil is the particles from the clutch plates burnishing the metal clutch plates in the clutch assembly and knocking any "burrs" off the splines in the clutch drums, outer and inner. That can definitely create shiny metal debris.
BTW, most all surfaces mentioned here that might create debris are aluminum and aluminum debris, especially microscopic 30 micron particles, are pretty much benign anyway. Since the bearings are aluminum, anyway, any imbedment of aluminum particles causes little or now harm. Imbedment of cast iron or steel particles can certainly mar the crank and erode the crank surface if the oil film gets thin enough....but there isn't much of that being generated in a bike engine if any at all.
Oils, assembly lubes, machined surface finishes, tolerances, etc. from all manufacturing operations are dramatically improved since the old-wives tales of breakin requirements were generated by our dads and grand-dads in the 40's and 50's and such. Most of those old stories just do not fly in todays engines.
Per an earlier comment.....spark plugs can and easily do last 100,000 miles or far longer these days. Dual platinum electrodes and unleaded fuel has made the spark plug a virutal life time part. I have seen them go that far and far many many times. Not that the occsional one might not be damaged from installation, fouling due to another problem or something, but the vast vast majority will run forever without being removed.
Similarily for oils , long change intervals and oil life monitors. No manufacturer actually practices "planned obselescence" and no one recommends extended drain intervals or break in oil changes that might harm the engine. To think otherwise is rediculous. The fact is that more damage is done to the vehicle fleet in general from oil changes, putting the wrong oil in, upselling the "customer" with un-necessary additives and treatments, etc. then would ever occur due to longer change intervals. Every time someone goes under the hood of the average customers car a risk is taken. The only way to prevent or minimize this risk is to keep the hood closed and keep the car out of the dealer/oil change depot. That minimizes exposure to upselling additives, the wrong lubricants, poor service procedures, etc. An often hidden and un-discussed reason for longer change intervals.
Is anyone going to hurt their FJR by an early and repeated oil change...?? No. Is is necessary? No. If there was a particular problem with breakin or necessity for unusual service I suspect that would have been addressed by the OEM with a design change, additional assembly lube, etc. It is more a "feel good" sort of thing but it isn't likely to do any harm except wear out the threads of the oil drain plug.
Rad does make a good point about loosening and retightening the oil drain plug early on, in my opinion. If the plug is overtorqued by Yamaha for some reason or the threads damaged, it would theoretically be good to break it loose and retighten (not so tight) before any microscopic galvanic corrosion occurs at the steel/aluminum thread interface that could cause additional damage. I have never seen any data to back this up, by the way, and I have looked at a lot of aluminum pans with steel plugs on car engines. It just makes common sense, though.
I ran my engine to 2000 miles and changed the oil and filter. Oil looked perfectly fine. No sign of debris or metallics other than a trace in the oil that settled at the bottom of the pan. That might be machining debris from assembly that is very benign as it just lies in the bottom of the pan anyway. Cut the filter open. Trace of debris in the filter. Nothing unusual at all. Certainly no "metallic oil" or huge amount of debris. Must have gotten another "Team Yamaha" engine...LOL.
Ever look at your oil from the Briggs and Stratton on your lawn mower. Just full of metallics. Yet the engine runs fine with no oil filter yet. Tribute to the power of the oil film thickness and the fact that the oil film thickness is thicker than any of the particles you see. So, they do absolutely nothing.
It is amazing at the emotion involved with oil discussions. I find oil interesting because of what I have learned about it and how the facts differ so significantly from what people believe and how fervent they are in their beliefs. I think this is mostly because changing the oil and "selecting" the correct oil is one of the few things left to an owner of an engine so many take that responsibility to the religious level. Just ask an amsoil true believer....LOL.
These "experts" wouldn't be the morons from "Two Guys Garage" would they...???
Just for the record, the comment about spark plugs was not whether they would last for 100,000 miles but rather, could you be 100% certain that you could get them out without breaking them. Just as you agreed with Rad that loosening the drain plug early on before it has a chance to lock itself on, I was saying the same thing about spark plugs.
