New Tire Problem

[FJRocket]

So I finally gets the time to skeedaddle down to a sickle shop about an hour from my house. Two tires strapped to the back seat.

"You guys got time to swap out a cupple a tires?" "I dunno, those guys are swamped".... Walk back to the service area. Garrett (the SM) looks at my front tire. "That's dangerous". "Uh, that's why I'm here." Looks over the bike. Not a Yammy stealer, btw.. every Jap bike but. Funny thing is, most young guys hangin' round and workin are wearing Yammy shirts!

He looks around the bike. Crawls under it. Asks questions. Never seen one of course. I hand him a print out from FJRTECH.com on the wheel removal stuff. He glances at it.

"Sure, hang loose. I'll change 'em. Be an hour. Less that an hour. Just hang out."

Big grin on Matt's face. The FJRocket needs new rubber bad. And these guys in the small town about an hour away WORK ME IN! The guys I bought the bike from want me to leave it all week. And want twice as much to do the service. They lost another customer...

I look at Suzis, Polaris, Kawi's (want a Grizzly bad), then walk a block to the gas station for milk and cookies. Yes, milk and cookies.

I'm walking back. Been about 45 minutes. There goes my Feejer down the street at a good clip with the SM riding. A BIG grin on his face. I notice the new treads. SWEET!

"Any problems?" "Nope, but the front ABS thingy was hard to get around. I finally disconnected it to put the wheel back in." "Cool. All Done" "Pay da man. They don't let us take any money back here."

I head to the counter and ask for the bill. The guy appologetically gives me a bill for $68!! I try to hold in my glee. My tires, and worked me in to boot. Very nice.

Ok, now for the real story and question... took long enough, didn't it?

I take off on the bike. I get out on the highway and roll slowly. Holy cow, this thing feels like it's on a pin point! I turn a bit left and right. Jheesh, the tires are actually ROUND. What a feeling!

Then it happens. I feel like I'm on a washboard. Hmmmm?... Keep going and it smooths out. Run up to about 70 and the feeling goes away, but the bars don't feel as good as with my shot Mets on there (they never cupped, just wore down... sweet!) I'm thinking something doesn't feel right. Maybe the tire just isn't seated, or something. No kidding, I ride the bike 200 miles on a loop back to the shop.

The big LOPE that I get around 28- 38 in the front just won't go away. Man, the new rubber just glues me to the curves, but the bars going up and down when slow makes me think the wheel is going to jump off the pavement, It's that harsh.

Back to the shop. Garrett is gone. Crap. 15 year old kid asks to help me. This kid is on it. Not bad for a kid. Asks one of the senior service guys (probably 25 yo) to help. Immediately says pull it in bay 2. Up on the stand, off comes the wheel. Garrett finally shows back up.

"That tire is balanced. It's perfect. The back wheel was off a bit, but not bad enough to change the weights. But the front wheel was perfect." He takes it to the bubble level and sets it up anyway. Lights a smoke. Plays with the wheel to make sure the reading is true. Bubble is dead smack center. Sweet. "We do Gixxers all the time that aren't this close and they are stable way over a hundred."

I ax him if the wheel could be out of round. He doesn't even blink (I was expecting a rant of "We did NOT **** up your rim", but he was actually concerned. He put it on a spindle on one of those yokes. Spins the tire. Puts the wire on the rim. True as new.

"The bead is closed and even, too."

I ask him if the tire could be bad? Belt bad? Defective? Out of round. He says that's pretty uncommon, but not unheard of. Puts the little feeler thingy against the rubber. Three of us watch the tire go round. I can SEE the rubber is not perfectly round.

Garrett says," Call the tire company, I think you have a problem." Houston, we have a problem....

Anyway, the questions here are:

Anyone ever have a new tire problem like this?

Is there something these guys might be missing that could cause a tire to seem out of round and lope that can be remedied without replacing the tire?

Should I be concerned about riding it as is?

Should I expect the tire company to replace the tire and pay the shop to mount it?

 

[Rogue]

I've seen it before. Mid 80's when I was working on bikes, Guy came in with a new front wheel (all nicely powdercoated) for his GS750E, "I had a new tire put on and the old wheel is bent". I swaped the rotors and put the tire on........ Dude, its not the wheel..... its your tire!

 

[markjenn]

It's certainly possible. The SOP at this point would be go demount, inspect, and if everything looks Okay remount and see if anything changes.

I'm concerned about the "bubble level" for balancing though. Typicallly, motorcycle tires are balanced on a balancing stand that holds the tire vertically. I've never seen a motorcycle tire balanced horizontally in a bubble level fixture. However, a balancing problem typically would manifest itself at higher speeeds, not lower.

- Mark

 

[FJRocket]

The balancer was a pendulum aparatus. They hang the wheel/tire from above on a point. The tire is about 10 inches or so below the bubble and swings very freely. It wasn't a new unit, but appeared to be MC or Quad specific, and mated to a very nice hydraulic tire changer. They had SCADS of quads and many bikes they were selling and working on.

On the yoke thing that held the tire vertical, the tire spun beautifully and never wanted to stop in the same (heavy) place.

The pointer did show a high spot on the tire, though. I thought maybe the tire wasn't seated in the rim properly, but the SM said the bead went to seat. And two guys went around the bead looking for an irregularity. None could be found by them or me, at least around the bead anyway. And if it wasn't, I thought 200 miles of riding might seat it or round it out?

Waiting to hear from the manufacturer. Probably have words with them on Monday.

Still like to hear any other comments or similar stories.

Thanks Mark and Rogue.

 

[radman]

Radials are prone to peculiar problems, one of them is belt separation. A radial tire carcass has belts laid across the tire (hence the radial term), then belts run around the circumference to stiffen the tread surface.

Where the belts join there can be a gap, or conversely, too close an overlap, where the belts terminate and are glued together, or be offset, creating a small dip or bulge in the carcass. The overlying rubber maintains this condition, and a bump or dip in the tire results. Another problem is not unique to the radial, it occurs in all tubeless tires, and thats a leak in the inner liner, the tires built in "tube" if you will. A leak there can cause air to leak into the area between plys, or between the carcass and the tread rubber, creating the famous bubble in the tire. I suspect the former has occurred, and though it is usually seen in the sidewall, tread belt seperation is not unheard of, and the tire will balance out, as yours has, but forever have vibration and odd wear problems. Just some thoughts.

 

[markjenn]

I'm not thrilled by their method of balancing, but I doubt that's the problem. And I doubt you've got a bead seating issue - generally tubeless tires won't hold air if they're not seated properly.

It sounds like the tire is defective or (less likely), the shop damaged it during the install.

My suggestion at this point would be to have the tire demounted, inspected, and if it looks okay, reinstalled in a different rotational orientation. You might just want to put your tail between your legs and find a dealer who sells the tire brand in question and have them do the demount. They may be willing to make a warranty adjustment if they concur that the tire is bad. That's what the mfg is going to tell you to do - take it to a dealer for adjustment, preferrably where you bought it, but with mail-order, you need to find a dealer willing to warranty a tire they didn't sell.

- Mark

 

[Craig in Denver]

Who is the tire manufacturer??

 

[Vstar2FJR]

Who is the tire manufacturer??

Really Craig, all these responses and we still don't have a clue if it was a Shinko, Conti, Avon, Metz, Mich, or what???? <_<

You'd think with the long report there would have been ONE word about the tire brand.

 

[Bounce]

I've heard of it happening and, within the FJR community, most often with Avons. Their QC used to leave something to be desired. I have heard that has improved over the past couple of years. Their current road hazzard warranty seems to imply an improved confidence in their product.

 

[Craig in Denver]

Really Craig, all these responses and we still don't have a clue if it was a Shinko, Conti, Avon, Metz, Mich, or what????

Vstar2FJR:

Yes, I thought it would be relevant information.

 

[FJRocket]

Well, I wasn't going to start tire/company bashing or get everyone's panties in a bunch. I know what would happen when I opened THIS can of worms...

Plus the fact that I just got back in town.

The tires are Tomahawks. You know, the aircraft company retreads? I ordered a set on a whim. I've been using the aircraft retreads for years with great results. So I thought I'd give 'em a go.

Still haven't heard back from Desser or Tomahawk. I'm still riding the tire. Getting used to the "out of balance" lope. Just waiting for the belt to sperate at the least convenient moment (which on a front wheel is ANY moment).

I hope they come through and replace it. Be nice to have that sweet smooth feel back in the front end, like the rear end currently feels. Lord knows the buzzy feeling in the bars around 70 is bad enough, even when the front tire is perfect.

Still waiting for my heavy bar end weights too. Not expecting those to improve THIS problem, though.

Ok, let 'er rip!

 

[markjenn]

Yes, retreads are one of those things that many people reject wrongly out of hand, although some skepticism about their reliability and quality is certainly justified. And I wouldn't take a company's experience with other types of tires to be proof that a retreaded motorcycle tire can match the quality and durability of a virgin tire.

Here's a thread on another forum about the Tomahawks:

https://forums.cycleworld.com/eve/ubb.x/a/t...m/734604501/p/1

I honestly don't have a strong opinion on these tires (other than my subjective opinion that their colored tires are just plain silly), but since you're having a problem, I think you may have your smoking gun. I wouldn't ignore the problem, especially if you're riding aggressively.

- Mark

 

[FJRocket]

Well I guess you could call my riding aggressive, by little girl standards.

No, I'm not ignoring the problem at all. I made the order over the net, so I'm trying to do the business over the net. If I have to call them on the phone, it will be bad news.

You know, one of these days when rubber may be hard to come by, and these retreads may be all that you might get. Perhaps it won't be a problem in my lifetime (I hope). But if they get a decent tire working with their process, I think the bit of environmental help they could be doing would be worth the trouble as well. Ok, tree hugging mode off.

I'll give them a couple days. I may go ahead and order a set of Avons to keep on hand. I'm going to get this thing settled one way or the other before the EOM. I'm not going down there with this tire the way it is.

 

[FJRocket]

Ok, just heard from Steve at Desser/Tomahawk. They are making good on the tire and want it back to diagnose the problem. They seem genuinely interested in getting it right and keeping us happy. I'll let you know when it's all settled.

BTW, I have the "sport" compound. They used to have a compound that was "sport/touring" but have evidently gotten away from that one. So I don't have high hopes for either tire's longevity. But I will enjoy the extra added At-TRACTION, while it lasts.

 

[MCRIDER007]

BTW, I have the "sport" compound. They used to have a compound that was "sport/touring" but have evidently gotten away from that one. So I don't have high hopes for either tire's longevity. But I will enjoy the extra added At-TRACTION, while it lasts.

I am kind of curious of what you would do if a retread with a lot of tread left, decides to separate out in the middle of nowhere. I think you would get lots of warning to stop since it would be very noisy and would start beating the hell out of your fenders but what do you do then? If you get a flat on a regular tire you can try to plug it or use fix-a-flat or put more air in it but what are the options for a retread that is separating? Do you call for a tow truck (if you have a cell phone and can get a signal) or try to use duct tape and wire and hold it together for a few miles?

 

[Rogue]

BTW, I have the "sport" compound. They used to have a compound that was "sport/touring" but have evidently gotten away from that one. So I don't have high hopes for either tire's longevity. But I will enjoy the extra added At-TRACTION, while it lasts.

I am kind of curious of what you would do if a retread with a lot of tread left, decides to separate out in the middle of nowhere. I think you would get lots of warning to stop since it would be very noisy and would start beating the hell out of your fenders but what do you do then? If you get a flat on a regular tire you can try to plug it or use fix-a-flat or put more air in it but what are the options for a retread that is separating? Do you call for a tow truck (if you have a cell phone and can get a signal) or try to use duct tape and wire and hold it together for a few miles?

You would not want that!

Front..... It would probally rip the fender off and take out your radiator!

Rear...... It would probally take out the tail of your bike and your bags.

Either way...... bare cords don't have much traction.

 

[Windjammer]

Will the retread come apart or not?

Are the tires both made with the same brand of carcass?

Will they last to the end of my trip?

None of these are questions I want to be asking myself when going down the road, much less leaned over in a corner! Considering what's on the line (your ass) rubber is just not that spendy. If you spend $350 to have a decent set mounted up and they last 7000 miles, your spending about 5 cents a mile, about the same as you'd spend on fuel at today's prices.

I just don't see the sense in risking it to save a couple of cents per mile, assuming tread life is equal. If you can afford a premium bike like the FJR, most likely you can afford the tires too. The savings just aren't worth it, IMO.

 

[FJRocket]

I don't think the tread will separate. The tires are actually remanufactured, not retreaded. As in not capped like some truck tire retreads. I don't even think my front tire will seperate with the defect it has in it. I was very nervous at first thinking the belt might seperate and the tire go all wonky. But so far it has held up well, it's just uncomfortable due to the oscillation and vibration. And that's just the front tire, the back tire feels perfect. Nice ride, especially combined with the Wilburs.

When you buy a pair, my understanding is that you get a matched set of cores from the same manufacturer. They track every tire in and out, and they are very particular about the cores they take. I know that when you order an aircraft tire, you can even specify the make and model of core.

Will they last to the end of the a trip? That's too broad a quetion. I don't think they'd be selling these things if they didn't think they'd give proper service. It's not a new or experimental process. And if the tires hold up under jet airliner loads and speeds, a little old FJR shouldn't be a problem. That being said, I don't think they make a strictly touring tire compound, I would probably not choose these tires for a long cross country trip anyway.

Like I said, I really didn't want to open this can of worms because I knew 99 out of 100 of you out there would hijack the thread and start dissing the tires based on gators you see on the roadways. I was really interested in information about tire manufacturing and why I had a perfectly balanced tire that seemed out of round, becuase of the lope. Again, I and many of my pilot friends have used their tires on our planes for years with great success. In fact, chances are, if you have flown commercial, you may well have already ridden on these remanufactured tires yourself. Granted, these tires aren't for everyone.. maybe they're a good thing, maybe they aren't. But I'll give them a chance.

I'll let you know how they work out. Hopefully you'll see me at EOM with them on my Feejer. What I am most concerned about with these tires (besides this defect) is how the sport compound is going to wear. When you're talking pennies per mile, if these things are trash after 5K miles, when I got 10K out of the Metz, THEN I'll start taking issue. Not so much because of the cost, but the number of times I have to go to the shop and get them changed. Keep in mind, though, the tires I bought are sport compund tires.

In the mean time, these things sure feel sticky on the pavement. And worked well in the rain, too.

Hopefully I'll get the replacement tire this week so I can get it reinstalled and get back to riding around.

 

[FJRocket]

I received the replacement tire from Desser/Tomahawk and will hopefully run down to get it installed on Friday. Good thing. That loping is driving me crazy(er) at low speed. Feel like Fred riding on a Flintstone square wheel.

The defective tire is still holding up, though. Hope those guys don't mind that I''ll have put about 2K miles on it by the time it goes back. What was I supposed to do, sit around the house and watch you guys have all the fun? One things for sure... the tread didn't seperate... yet.... Tire looks normal. I know, I know, I can hear you guys already..."yeah it looks normal until it instantly disintegrates and you are FUBAR".

I haven't gotten a return label from those guys so they can DX the problem. Guess it's either in the mail, or they don't care. Thought for sure the return label would be hermetically sealed with the new tire. Oh well, maybe they'll send it with the CHECK to reimburse me for the tire change.

Good to know these guys stand by their product. Even if you don't like the concept of a remanufactured tire, at least you can have confidence in the company.