JamesW
JamesW
Anyone ever done this before and after using K&N air filters?
Oil analysis
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user 90243
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what is your question? doesn't make sense...
I think it might have something to do with the filtration "efficiency" of the K&N......the question being asked is "is the use of K&N filters associated with a change in engine wear rates, and if so, which way?". ISO 5011 refers.....
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RossKean
Well-known member
I have done some searching on this topic.
Based on engine oil analysis, some have claimed that there was little difference in silica (and wear metals) between K&N and OEM paper filters (for cars).
Others have claimed a large difference attributed to more "dirt" getting through the less restrictive K&N. Note: Silica represents the "dirt" and certain metals (mostly iron and aluminum) represent the wear.
Some have included anecdotal observations that the downstream side of the K&N showed more deposits. At least one individual on this forum has mentioned oily deposits downstream that trap and hold dust/dirt which can gum up the throttle plates. Again, possibly a function of over-oiling.
I expect that it may have to do with how the filter was handled during cleaning and how it was oiled. More oil might make it more retentive for particulates but far more restrictive.
The OEM does a good job and will last a long time except under very dusty conditions. Remove it, blow it out with shop air, reinstall after flipping it end for end. K&N will give you exactly zero additional horsepower.
Based on engine oil analysis, some have claimed that there was little difference in silica (and wear metals) between K&N and OEM paper filters (for cars).
Others have claimed a large difference attributed to more "dirt" getting through the less restrictive K&N. Note: Silica represents the "dirt" and certain metals (mostly iron and aluminum) represent the wear.
Some have included anecdotal observations that the downstream side of the K&N showed more deposits. At least one individual on this forum has mentioned oily deposits downstream that trap and hold dust/dirt which can gum up the throttle plates. Again, possibly a function of over-oiling.
I expect that it may have to do with how the filter was handled during cleaning and how it was oiled. More oil might make it more retentive for particulates but far more restrictive.
The OEM does a good job and will last a long time except under very dusty conditions. Remove it, blow it out with shop air, reinstall after flipping it end for end. K&N will give you exactly zero additional horsepower.
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Bustanut joker
Well-known member
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JamesW
JamesW
I've run K&Ns on both of my FJRs and have never had a problem. Sent my oil in to Blackstone Labs (I believe that's their name) from my '05 after she had 200K+ miles and the results were very favorable. But I also run synthetic oils so that may have something to do with it too. The sample I had sent in was after roughly 7K mi.s.
I know everyone has their own opinion about this sort of stuff. I'm merely sharing my experience.
I know everyone has their own opinion about this sort of stuff. I'm merely sharing my experience.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Many people, including me, avoid the foam and K&N filters. I did run a UNI filter for a while. No gains, and I worried about dirt getting through. However, it dawned on me a while back that my KTM filter on my Dirt Bike is oiled foam, and the area behind the filter is always very clean and dry. Obviously, different engine types, but no idea if they're any different than on an FJR.
On my KTM, I do use Filter Panties, which are basically a washable filter cover. All they do is extend the intervals of me removing the filter and cleaning it. Basically, I run the three panties, then the bare filter, and THEN I clean it. So only once every 4 oil changes instead of every time. Saves time and makes life easier. I don't think those are available for the FJR filters and they would sure negate the purpose.
The paper filters are cheap enough and last long enough that I don't worry about them anymore. I just replace them when they're dirty.
On my KTM, I do use Filter Panties, which are basically a washable filter cover. All they do is extend the intervals of me removing the filter and cleaning it. Basically, I run the three panties, then the bare filter, and THEN I clean it. So only once every 4 oil changes instead of every time. Saves time and makes life easier. I don't think those are available for the FJR filters and they would sure negate the purpose.
The paper filters are cheap enough and last long enough that I don't worry about them anymore. I just replace them when they're dirty.
^This^. In the beginning I obsessed about the air filter, our spring pollen is brutal. But over time I found that the paper filter last just fine. Alternating yrs, one yr blow it out & turn it around, next yr replace it.
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Bustanut joker
Well-known member
Keep it up Simon, keep it up.
You don't want me talking about the time when you and I went to Mexico and you got strip searched at the boarder when you were wearing panties and that training bra.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
What's wrong with that? I guess it depends on what he was training for. Right?
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
I find this confusing. I have used a K&N filter in a truck before but I never thought about measuring myself before or after.
I have never met Old Michael but I have met FJRay and I really don't want to expose myself to him. He didn't seem like the sort of man who would measure another man's...tool. Do FJRay and Old Michael normally do the measuring and comparing? This just doesn't seem right to me. Are you sure about this?
And more importantly (I think) what does that have to do with oil analysis? I would hate to find out I was doing something wrong with my oil all this time. Maybe I should start an oil thread and see what the rest of the forum thinks about oil.
HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
We think...No, we know that people who start oil threads are...special. You're a special kind of special, so if you start an oil thread we'll mostly feel bad for you.
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First of all I wasn't even there! Second, If I was there I don't remember anything...
The serviceable, oiled media filters are often claimed save money over buying replaceable OEM type paper filters. This claim is based on replacing the filter per the bike manufacturer, who also happens to sell those filters, schedule (conflict of interests?). Some things to consider is what the purpose of the filter is, how it works, and how its performance changes with use.
The primary purpose of the filter is to restrict dirt particles from entering the engine where they can contribute to internal engine wear. The way the filter does that is the filter media has tiny holes for the air to pass through, but that larger dirt particles cant fit through and get trapped on the outside surface. The compromise is that the smaller those holes are, the more thoroughly the media will filter out smaller dirt particles, but at the expense of being more restrictive to air flow. Based on that compromise, a brand new, clean filter will pass dirt that is smaller than a certain size.
As a filter gets dirty with use, larger particles of dirt accumulate on the outside of the media. The accumulated dirt has two effects: It blocks or partially blocks some of the holes and therefore the filter becomes more restrictive. But it also becomes a better filter to future dirt and will restrict smaller particles. Contrary to urban legends the dirt trapped on the filter will not magically be sucked through the filter into the engine. Once trapped, its there for good. So, up until a time that the filter becomes overly restrictive and causes engine performance problems, it actually works better at its primary purpose with age.
Back in the days of carburetors adding relatively small added restriction to the intake would increase the intake vacuum and cause the engine to run overly rich. With the advent of electronic fuel injection you can have a big change in vacuum and the ECU will still deliver the proper amount of fuel. Modern engines are far more tolerant of having a restrictive air filter, which is why there is no performance advantage to running an aftermarket oiled filter. FI engines are also more tolerant of running a dirty filter that is becoming more restrictive, and since it is actually filtering smaller particles with negligible performance loss, changing the filter as often as prescribed by the manufacturer, is folly.
Although I do change my own filter occasionally (@25k mike intervals for me), I would wager that unless you run your FJR in very dusty conditions a lot, IOW someone who rides theirs only on paved roads in relatively clean air might never have to replace their air filter over hundreds of thousands of miles with no ill effect.
As usually, YMMV.
The primary purpose of the filter is to restrict dirt particles from entering the engine where they can contribute to internal engine wear. The way the filter does that is the filter media has tiny holes for the air to pass through, but that larger dirt particles cant fit through and get trapped on the outside surface. The compromise is that the smaller those holes are, the more thoroughly the media will filter out smaller dirt particles, but at the expense of being more restrictive to air flow. Based on that compromise, a brand new, clean filter will pass dirt that is smaller than a certain size.
As a filter gets dirty with use, larger particles of dirt accumulate on the outside of the media. The accumulated dirt has two effects: It blocks or partially blocks some of the holes and therefore the filter becomes more restrictive. But it also becomes a better filter to future dirt and will restrict smaller particles. Contrary to urban legends the dirt trapped on the filter will not magically be sucked through the filter into the engine. Once trapped, its there for good. So, up until a time that the filter becomes overly restrictive and causes engine performance problems, it actually works better at its primary purpose with age.
Back in the days of carburetors adding relatively small added restriction to the intake would increase the intake vacuum and cause the engine to run overly rich. With the advent of electronic fuel injection you can have a big change in vacuum and the ECU will still deliver the proper amount of fuel. Modern engines are far more tolerant of having a restrictive air filter, which is why there is no performance advantage to running an aftermarket oiled filter. FI engines are also more tolerant of running a dirty filter that is becoming more restrictive, and since it is actually filtering smaller particles with negligible performance loss, changing the filter as often as prescribed by the manufacturer, is folly.
Although I do change my own filter occasionally (@25k mike intervals for me), I would wager that unless you run your FJR in very dusty conditions a lot, IOW someone who rides theirs only on paved roads in relatively clean air might never have to replace their air filter over hundreds of thousands of miles with no ill effect.
As usually, YMMV.
Redfish Hunter
Gone Fishing
Fred all of that is true and is good information but it has now become secondary in importance. I want to focus on Bust's assertion that it will increase the size of...my junk. I am still not comfortable with having FJRay or Old Michael do the measuring. However, if I can grow for just the cost of a new K&N filter... I am pretty sure that's a Win.
It is difficult to reverse the idea that replacing the air filter will increase fuel mileage. Even with folks that know that fuel follows air for a gasoline engine. I grew up believing that a new air filter would help fuel economy. I still find myself checking the air filter in my vehicle or my bike before a trip. Of course my turbocharged Duramax gets its filter dirty in a big hurry.
It is difficult to reverse the idea that replacing the air filter will increase fuel mileage. Even with folks that know that fuel follows air for a gasoline engine. I grew up believing that a new air filter would help fuel economy. I still find myself checking the air filter in my vehicle or my bike before a trip. Of course my turbocharged Duramax gets its filter dirty in a big hurry.
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