PAIRectomy. And yes, wtih pics.

[radman]

Hey ELP JC,
I appreciate someone who will take the time to generate informative posts, along with good pictures. A willingness to share knowledge is one of the successful cornerstones of this forum.

You should realize, however, that your means of delivery and general demeanor are often offensive to others. You might want to practice a little more humility when making your offerings.

One well-meant piece of advice......I'd be a little bit cautious about jumping on Jestal. He can chew you alive if he wants to.

Yup. We've had hurricanes roar through and out of here before, jestal, and others, have weathered them just fine.

 

[BrunDog]

Hey ELP JC,
I appreciate someone who will take the time to generate informative posts, along with good pictures. A willingness to share knowledge is one of the successful cornerstones of this forum.

You should realize, however, that your means of delivery and general demeanor are often offensive to others. You might want to practice a little more humility when making your offerings.

One well-meant piece of advice......I'd be a little bit cautious about jumping on Jestal. He can chew you alive if he wants to.

Yup. We've had hurricanes roar through and out of here before, jestal, and others, have weathered them just fine.

Jestal's word is gospel. Its a basic fundamental law. Like Newton's law, kinda.

-BD

 

[PA1195]

Sounds like wonderfully rampant pissoffedness to me...sorry for the popcorn fart, BTW...I recall Suzuki saying their air injection was for diluting the exhaust mixture so it could pass inspection w/o a CAT on the early models that had it...more air in the exhaust means a relative lower percentage of greenie-hating badness is how I read it...but with a hot CAT waiting to eat the evil-dooers anyway, it may only help with early HC digestion on the FJR, or be a retro from before CATs that now want 14.7:1 AF to properly digest according to their SM...once warm, the air valve only opens at idle according to Yamaha.

BTW, seeing as how the GenII FJR is supposed to shut off all fuel on decell per some post I read here somewhere and in the Svc. Manual, and also meet current EPA/EU standards I believe, I can't imagine the fuel would contribute much to popping unless the TB's are leaking like a Senior Citizen...my CO at +15 for all doesn't pop on decell despite the Staintune cans (it's a bit rich) ...at +10 it does (rumble, rumble, popcorn, whew!)...there's some slow lean burn overrun I'm hearing, so there must be at least some fuel getting by.

And Jestal...please...what's your opinion on the potential causes of the '07 surging/stalling issue?...any fill appreciated as it's been awhile since I've read your take on things.

Gary in Fairbanks

 

[Bounce]

Jestal's word is gospel. Its a basic fundamental law. Like Newton's law, kinda.

Mmmmm... Newtons. I love those things! Not the crappy new ones for kids; just the fig ones.

 

[huron52]

After following this thread I think I am more... er ..ah.... enlightened.... I think.

 

[jestal]

And Jestal...please...what's your opinion on the potential causes of the '07 surging/stalling issue?...any fill appreciated as it's been awhile since I've read your take on things.
Gary in Fairbanks

There was a good bit of discussion on this on some of the other threads specific to this. In a nut shell, my take on what I hear and read (I have an 03 that runs fine....) is that there are maybe two "problems" with the fuel injection calibration on the 07's....

One would be the issue of abrupt throttle reponse/surging/stalling/etc. that happens all the time to some extent regardless of altitude. My guess would be that Yamaha put some decel fuel cutoff in the overrun areas of the fuel map to reduce emissions and/or mitigate some possible cat over-temp conditions during decel. Possibly they saw cat damage from overtemp in the field on earlier models and reacted to it?? Most catalyst systems, especially with monolithic cat substraights, require some sort of over-run fueling protection...i.e..decel fuel cutoff. If this is simply programmed into the existing fuel map in the decel areas it can certainly lead to some abrupt torque changes as the system crosses the over-run threshold. Whatever was done in that area that is different on the 06/07 models it seems like it could have been accomplished with a little more finese, maybe.

This may also be impacted to some extent by the change from a return fuel type system to a return-less fuel rail. While many have pooh-poohed the problems associated with the water hammer effect on a return-less fuel rail (pressure spikes from injectors opening and closing causing problems with the fuel flow rate of neighboring injectors) I do know for a fact that that can happen. If Yamaha did a good/thorough development program on the return-less rail then the problems are certainly surmountable...if they did their homework. If not, then some low level problem instigating from the return-less rail could also be piling on to the off-idle and over-run fueling symptoms.

The other issue is what is going on at altitude. Given that the 06/07 models do not have a dedicated barometric pressure sensor they must rely on some sort of "baro-less" algorithm to estimate the barometric pressure via the MAP sensor. This can, and has, been done very successfully in automotive applications for many years but if not done very carefully can lead to some real problems..... Problems like may be manifesting themselves on many of the 06/07's ridden to altitude. The magnitude of this would/could be very variable depending on riding style, how far the throttle was opened during rapid altitude changes and/or what the RPM was at heavy throttle openings, how fast the altitude was changed, the magnitude of the altitude change, whether the engine/ECM was shut down at altitude and restarted......etc....etc..... There are a LOT of factors that could come into play here to explain the variability in the problems seen.

My guess is that the two situations described tend to compound each other on specific bikes ridden to altitude or not or what altitude they are operated at all the time. Changing things like the throttle opening rate (such as by modifying the return spring/resistence and the throttle cam on the grip) can make an apparent effect on the problem in terms of driveability improvement by masking the real issue via a slower transient across the problem parts of the map or control algorithm. I doubt that the altitude (supposed baro reading error) would be nearly as evident without the first problem. And vice versa.

With a relatively simple speed density control system, individual throttle bodies and throttle bores for each cylinder, averaged MAP signal, etc...... it is not too hard too envision having this sort of interaction if something isn't just right and the calibrators tried to really push the limits of the control system for emission or other reasons. In addition, the change to return-less fuel rail, baroless baro sensing, etc. make the 06/07's "different" animals from the 03/04/05 bikes creating a real "fear of the unknown" causing a problem to crop up where there wasn't one before.

I'm not defending the situation at all. It really doesn't seem like the sort of thing that should get to the customer on a production vehicle. But it is understandable given many of the constraints that we know about.

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) Yamaha does to acknowlege and/or correct the problem. I would hazard a guess that it could be addressed via a re-flash of the ECM calibration but that would obviously require significant development work and re-certification of a "running change" calibration for the field.

Just my take on the subject from what I have been reading here in places. I don't work for, nor with, Yamaha so this is all purely conjecture on my part based on what little I know about fuel injection systems and reading about other people's descriptions of the problems. I haven't really dug too deep into it at all not having an 07 at my disposal (did I mention my 03 funs perfect..??) ....but if someone wants to bring one over and leave it at my house for me to mess with for awhile......... :lol: :lol:

 

[BrunDog]

Seee!!?!! There it is!

-BD

 

[PA1195]

And Jestal...please...what's your opinion on the potential causes of the '07 surging/stalling issue?...any fill appreciated as it's been awhile since I've read your take on things.
Gary in Fairbanks

There was a good bit of discussion on this on some of the other threads specific to this. In a nut shell, my take on what I hear and read (I have an 03 that runs fine....) is that there are maybe two "problems" with the fuel injection calibration on the 07's....

...ZIP...

Just my take on the subject from what I have been reading here in places. I don't work for, nor with, Yamaha so this is all purely conjecture on my part based on what little I know about fuel injection systems and reading about other people's descriptions of the problems. I haven't really dug too deep into it at all not having an 07 at my disposal (did I mention my 03 funs perfect..??) ....but if someone wants to bring one over and leave it at my house for me to mess with for awhile......... :lol: :lol:

Thank you for the clear explanation of your views on the potential sources of the recurrent problems some have dealt with...and as always, I come away appreciating just how much is to be learned by reading this Forum.

Gary in Fairbanks

Edit: someone really should take Jestal up on his offer to mess with a trouble-prone FJR...another perspective on how an '03 performs vs. the GenII's would be good for all as few own both...ignore the LOL's as I suspect he'd give it his best shot.

 

[sprint_st]

For those of you who are concerned with warranty issues, as I am considering I bought the YES and am in my first year, there is something that I did on mine that might be of interest. Rather than remove the plates and replace them or plug the holes, I left the plates in place and replaced the tee pipes with a piece of dowel which effectively blocks them. All the rest of the stuff comes out. If I have a repair issue where I have to take it in, I can have my PCIII and the PAIR back in less than 30 minutes looking like stock.