Piston Hit Valve, spark plug melted

[garyahouse]

Vpantus:

At this point, the why isn't as important as the what to do now. Here's your choices, in order from cheapest to most expensive:

1. Pull and repair the engine yourself. Do all the work yourself. You might even get away with being able to buy used parts off the net. Downside: long frustrating process, and if the wife is upset now, you better hold on to your hat if you go this route. The time it takes you and the frustration you'll go through may well not be worth it when it may become the source of many uncomfortable disagreements with the better half. A couple questions: got a place to put all this stuff where the family won't have to be tripping over it for a month or two? Got the proper equipment? Got the know how? Got a close friend who does and is willing to help (a lot... this won't be done in a weekend).

2. Part out the bike and reduce your losses by the amount of money you can get for everything. There are some valuable and sought after parts on that bike. This is also a time consuming job that will no doubt clutter up the garage for a long while. See #1 above about potential run-ins with the boss.

3.Pull (and replace) it yourself, then pay someone to repair the engine. Remember both options 1 and 2 are a roll of the dice... you don't know how much damage has been done. It could be more than you think. If those cylinder walls are damaged (I wouldn't doubt it) you'll be @#$%%^&*. This will be pricey.

4. Pull it and replace it with a used engine yourself. This is another roll of the dice as wisely put by the fellers above. Forest Gump was right, Ya never know what cher gonna get. And you'll probably need to put some money into the used engine as well to freshen it up while it's still on the stand... valve checks and CCTs are cheap insurance. Once again, the forum's provided some wise advice.

5. Pay someone to deal with a used engine that you found.

6. Pay someone to find an engine and deal with everything.

7. Sell the bike as is (big loss)

8. Walk away

9. Take it to a stealership and have them do it. This might cost more than you paid for the thing.

Here's another possibility. You might find a dealership that would take it as a trade on a new bike. They might wanna keep it around for parts. I doubt it, but anything's possible.

For what it's worth, and it's none of my business, you DID say the wife was grilling you for buying used rather than new. That speaks volumes to me. Granted, the average lady doesn't know much about nuts and bolts, but she is the better half, even during trying times like this.

My thoughts? Consider the cost: this project could cost you far more than you think if you don't make the right decision here. Make sure you really weigh the price you'll have to pay in lost weekends, no spare time, being crabby at work, making a huge mess, and running the risk that you might make a mechanical error that can cause problems down the road. The project you're looking at makes replacing a cam chain look like child's play. And remember this, no matter what you do now, the wife will NEVER forget this. Though you can't undo what's happened, I'm hoping she'll be proud of the decision you're about to make... one day. Many guys on this forum could take on a project like this... it would be no big deal. I have a feeling that's not the case at your house.

THINK...

Gary

darksider #44

 

[Bustanut joker]

You forgot 10 Gary.. Pretend yer Odot and disassemble the motor on your kitchen table..

Let it set 4 years until you marry, then toss it in the garage and forget about it..

And then one day wake up sober and wonder where da *** me motor went?? an also wonder who this naked woman is who's in me bed?

 

[JamesK]

Sorry to hear about the problem, I'd go for a good used engine in this case. Of course if the wife insists on you buying a shiny cool new 2013 FJR I'd let her win this particular argument

I am curious of one thing, you said the bike had under 30k miles on it, why did you decide to change the timing chain, the CCT, sure, but the timing chain?

 

[vpantus]

Well, i did some what felt like micro scopic exploration with the bore scope today and found some answers.

an exhaust valve broke off and got jammed between the piston and spark plug. See attached pictures with comments

I took the cams out and one of the exhaust valves came right out, well half of it, just the stem. then i used the pep hole window down in the crankcase too look up at the cylinder, luck-ally it is the first one so it was easy to see,. I could see a good amount of metal shavings, and the hole in the piston. From what i could tell, i did not see any damage to cylinder walls.

As i stand now, i do believe it makes more sense for me to take the head off and inspect further before making any other actions.If the damage is just the piston and valve, that doesn't seem that bad.

Has anyone taken the head off? what is the general process? all the intake stuff, exhaust headers and then the bolts from up top?

What other parts would i need to replace other then the piston, valve, and obviously gasket?

pictures found on flickr, comments on every picture

https://www.flickr.com/photos/95353385@N04/

 

[Ignacio]

Has anyone taken the head off? what is the general process? all the intake stuff, exhaust headers and then the bolts from up top?
What other parts would i need to replace other then the piston, valve, and obviously gasket?

If you're asking these questions.....then I suggest you double down on the recommendations in Post #2.

 

[escapefjrtist]

No telling how much damage has been done to the internals. In addition to piston / rings, con rod is likely bent leading to a suspect crank and bearings...

IMHO, replacement engine is your best option. Doing the work yourself you'll be into it for less than needed repairs.

Good Luck!

--G

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Well,with a rough calculation probably you must replace all the valves and the guides,because surely if the engine was running out of timming 2,3,4 teeth,all the pistons has hitting all the valves in all cylinders and probably all the valves are bent now,the labor for this job for the head in the machine shop,the one piston in the best case and if the crankshaft,bearings,rods are in good condition, will cost you over of 1500$ for the spare parts without the labor cost if you decide to do this job yourself.The best way if you want to keep your bike is to buy a good used engine from e-bay a lot of them there,and with a friend for assistance to swapping the engines!You can take pictures in every step of the removing of your old engine and you can write in a paper some notes from every step to help you when you will install the good used engine in the frame.Don't thinking to repair your engine...I wish you good luck!

 

[JamesK]

Well,with a rough calculation probably you must replace all the valves and the guides,because surely if the engine was running out of timming 2,3,4 teeth,all the pistons has hitting all the valves in all cylinders and probably all the valves are bent now,the labor for this job for the head in the machine shop,the one piston in the best case and if the crankshaft,bearings,rods are in good condition, will cost you over of 1500$ for the spare parts without the labor cost if you decide to do this job yourself.The best way if you want to keep your bike is to buy a good used engine from e-bay a lot of them there,and with a friend for assistance to swapping the engines!You can take pictures in every step of the removing of your old engine and you can write in a paper some notes from every step to help you when you will install the good used engine in the frame.Don't thinking to repair your engine...I wish you good luck!

And since your original motor only had 30k miles on it you can buy a replacement engine which comes without many of the "accessories" like throttle boddies, starter motor, etc, as your originals are still good.

 

[garyahouse]

Prices listed here were from 2006. Expect higher prices. Ya might be spending all this and significantly more, again, it's a roll of the dice. Anyway, once the head's off, this might help: CLICKY

There are a lot of pictures and info about head repair and engine replacement. Try doing a google search like this:

site:fjrforum.com engine repair (or head replacement or ???)

That's a great way to find what you're looking for on the forum.

For example, one place engine swapping was discussed was here: CLICKY and another here: CLICKY

Gary

 

[ionbeam]

Since the piston has been hit hard enough to hole it, the crank really needs to come out and be measured for true, the crank bearings checked and the piston/rod/wrist pin/bearing assembly on that cylinder needs to be checked. Keep track of all the plane bearings, they need to go back in the same place. As seen in Patriot's engine, the only sure way to tell the health of plane bearings will be to use a Plastigauge kit.

I'm smelling toast.

 

[Fred W]

eBay link. There are a number of used 1st gen engines available. One had only 5800 miles on it before it was removed from the crashed bike. They even have a video of the engine running and it sounds good. Don't bother considering any 2nd gen engines. There are enough differences (ECU, plumbing, sensors, etc.) to make it a hassle to try to install it in a 1st gen frame.

Although this may be mean to say so, I have to figure that you did something that caused the engine failure somehow since it happened right after you did all of that work. Of course none of us will ever really know. It could have been purely coincidental. But it should give one pause to consider whether you are up to the job of an engine swap or not.

Contrary to what Gary said above, I don't think an engine swap is any more technically difficult of a job than a valve shim and engine re-timing, but it is certainly a bigger job in total. You'll need a big dose of attention to details. If that doesn't sound like you, then parting out the old bike and cutting your losses on it may be your best course of action.

Really sorry to see an otherwise good bike go down like this.

 

[RossKean]

If it is just the head (and that's a BIG IF), could a donor head fix it up? i.e. The head from Patriot's motor? Replacement piston. I guess maybe a con rod too. If the crank is damaged, then all of the above has been a waste of time and parts.

This is already getting complicated with a lot of labor and no assurance of success. If metal bits made it down to the lower parts of the engine, who knows what damage might have occurred. I agree with Ionbeam - starting to smell a little like bread under a grill.

Get a used low-miles engine or part out the bike carcass to help offset the cost of a new MC.

 

[Ramblin]

If in this situation I would buy (if price is reasonable) a Gen 1 FJR with damaged plastic. Replace the damaged plastic parts with the good ones from the donor FJR and either keep or sell remaining parts of donor FJR.

Before buying another engine listen to the engine running while it is warm. If it ticks keep looking.

 

[ionbeam]

If it is just the head (and that's a BIG IF), could a donor head fix it up? i.e. The head from Patriot's motor? Replacement piston. I guess maybe a con rod too...

Pulling the head with the engine if the frame is one thing, but to do anything with the crank or rods means pulling the engine and splitting the case; when done together is significant work. Just pulling the head in the frame will test your tool box, it can be done but there are some near zero clearance bolts in places where tools and hands don't fit. Because of the distortion of my cylinder head a couple of bolts snapped and it took a machine shop to extract the ends in the block.

It is all academic though, the piston has a hole in it so the engine must come out no matter what. If the engine is going to be on the ground, the cost of putting in a new engine will probably be less than working on the bomb. A complete cylinder head, parts alone is in the $900 range if you shop hard for parts, if you don't shop hard it will be $900 for the head before any other parts.

As previously mentioned there is some risk in an unknown engine. I didn't play Fred's clip of the running ebay engine but I assume at <20k miles it isn't a ticker yet and the sift forks remain an unknown. Get the VIN of the donor cycle so you can check the actual model year (don't take anyone's word for it, I know this from experience). If the engine is indeed an '03 then strongly consider having new valve guides and stem bushings installed while the engine is on the ground. Since Yamaha doesn't use the same engine number as frame number it is hard to tell if it is from a stolen bike.

Ask what comes with the complete engine. I called a local company that was selling a complete engine and it was -- all the internals were there but they used the block and head for a project bike. Several 'complete' engines were missing clutches, starters, stators and other significant bits. You can transfer these over from your bomb but if you are paying someone, add $$$ at each step.

Even though my luck with used engines wasn't good I would still consider this to be the best way out. If the repairs total 30% or more of purchase price then parting it out may be the better option if you have the space, patience and time.

Good luck with the wife

 

[wfooshee]

This is not a fixable engine. Period. Too many unknowns, and the expense of defining and measuring those unknowns is going to be well beyond what the bike will be worth.

Back in 1995 I tried to drive my car through rising water to escape my flooding apartment complex during Hurricane Opal. The bay was up into the parking lot, and I was determined to move to higher ground. During the "escape" I actually had to go through deeper water, ingested water into the engine and hydraulic'd a cylinder.

After the teardown the insurance adjuster said that repairing the engine was feasible, it was just a con-rod, piston, and bearings for that one cylinder. Speaking with the shop mechanics at the dealer where the car went, they agreed. Most said I could insist on replacing the engine but it wasn't really necessary, and they could have this one done sooner anyway, no telling when an entire engine would arrive.

Oh, how I wish I had insisted on a replacement engine!!!

And as it happens, I left as the water was reaching the highest it got. If I'd just backed the car up 10 feet and left it, everything would have been peachy!

 

[garyahouse]

+1 Wfooshee.

Like I said, you're rolling the dice doin' a repair. That head of that valve head both took and caused some major hits and transferred some nasty forces to that con rod and the crank. The time, $, and risk is huge for a top notch FJR mechanic, let alone a good man who doesn't seem to know WHY his engine jumped timing after he worked on it. We're not trying to be critical here, most of are capable of doing exactly what you did, and maybe even having the same results. However, with all the risk and expense involved, what a shame to get it all back together only to find that the crank is jacked... and maybe not til many miles down the road. If ya must wrench, maybe consider another engine? At least you'll have plenty of good engine parts to keep for a rainy day??

Gary

 

[RaYzerman19]

It does smell a bit like toast, and only venturing a guess that the tensioner was not fully released, chain skipped a bunch of teeth, the first valve fully open at the wrong time would have hit the piston, demo-ed it and the plug. All the others could be OK..... yep, pull the head and see where you're at with the other three cylinders. IF you're up to splitting the cases, crank needs to be checked for true, replace that rod to be safe, new piston, etc..... you're in deep at this point. I wouldn't be too skeered of a used decent mileage engine from a wreck. It's your best bet.

 

[TownsendsFJR1300]

Its possible the engine could have had the the cams installed a tooth off initially, no big deal, just runs crappy.

It is however, very possible, the PO ALREADY had an issue with the engine (diagnosed, ie spun rod bearing, like Patriots). The mechanic, brought to his attention the $ cost to repair and PO decided to sell it "as is" without disclosing anything.

Between the potential "issue" and possibly the cam off a tooth (or not), 170 miles later, the ticking time bomb went off unfortunatly.

 

[900gc]

Hummm... I'd have to go with the good used engine swap or buy a lightly crashed bike that basically needs some parts swapped from yours for a good price. To rebuilt it and assure that everything else is OK in there will take a lot of work. Unless your hobby is rebuilding motors, this path would seem to be one of those diminishing returns projects

 

[rPGoatBoy]

Well, i did some what felt like micro scopic exploration with the bore scope today and found some answers.
an exhaust valve broke off and got jammed between the piston and spark plug. See attached pictures with comments

Here you go, $700:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2005-Yamaha-FJR1300-OEM-Engine-in-good-running-condition-FREE-SHIP-/230972544082?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Model%3AFJR1300&hash=item35c7095452&vxp=mtr