Power Commander V w/Autotune Discussion

[0Face]

When I bought this bike it came with a Power Commander V and the Autotune module. I’ve never really messed with it.

I’d like to learn more about it. Dynojet has their standard map with their AFR values and the Autotune module will “trim” the tables in order to keep the mix at the correct AFR when you read the changes then apply them. I know these can all be influenced with altitude, temp etc. So I’m not really looking to be nit-picky.

I believe there is the ability to put two different maps in with a switch to change them so you can in theory, have a “high mileage” map (I assume would be leaner with less power) and a “power” map for ripping it up. This intrigues me. My thought is since live in Flatlandistan I generally have to run 600+ miles to get anywhere fun. I could run the mileage map to get there and back and switch to the “fun” map when I’m where I want to be. I’m not sure how much gain in mileage I would get. Seems to me if there was a giant mileage gain the IBR guys would be running these things.

My questions start with:

I’m I correct in thinking this?

Anybody play around with these settings and the autotune? What were your results?

Does anybody have maps they use and for what?

What do you think about the AFR values Dynojet has installed?

Feel free to get as technical or not in any explanation. I’m hoping this will be a good educational thread.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

I can answer a little bit of your question Marty, but not all.

I installed the PC-V without the Autotune option on Dad's '07. I bought it from FuelMoto and they loaded a "Smoothness Map" into it and I never went any further with it. It "smoothed" the throttle response which is all we needed. Fuel mileage dropped.

The PC-V does have the capability to load 2 maps with an external switch, exactly as you stated. What is most common is to use the stock Yamaha settings for the "lean" or "mileage" map and to use the custom map for either power or smoothness.

While comparing mpg figures between bikes is useless because of the infinite number of variables, I can verify what happened to Dad's bike. He lost about 2 to 3 mpg. He never cared at all.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Remember if you load specific maps, you must then disable the Autotune function or the unit will adjust the tune to the set A:F

Definitely not good in areas of large changing elevations.

Do a learn ride with a wide variety of parameters, throttle, rpm, speed and when happy, save it straight away & turn off the Autotune.

I played around with the A:F and had a wonderful map made for my bike and riding style, then switched it off.

Good fuel economy while at my cruising speed, enriched the the areas where it needed it.

Mind you I had the LCD200, could view and log real time data, Initially used a 10" netbook in the tank bag, but wanted to diagnose, data log and proved my 07 had the High Altitude Surge.

Cost me a lot of $ to prove to Yamaha Australia that there was a problem with the ECU, finally they replaced it, all the fueling problems fixed like it should be from new.

 

[Cibrd0wn]

I am still playing with my setup, PCV and autotune. I just added a switch to try and do two maps but it is my understanding that with the autotune enabled the the switch turns it off and runs the base map no longer making adjustments. When I first installed mine on my 06 the mileage dropped to the low 30's. I believe that was with the smoothness map that was floating around. I have played with my map and I am very close to almost happy with where thing are. As a power map it is very smooth but have a little work to do when coming off the throttle at idle it seems to be a little rich and I believe I can get the mileage back into the 40's by leaning out my cruising rpms a bit more. From what I read on other forums is the autotune is great to get a dialed in map and then take it off. Now my map does not have it separated by gear and I will need to look into that further.

My Map Download

 

[sath182]

Remember if you load specific maps, you must then disable the Autotune function or the unit will adjust the tune to the set A:F

Not entirely true, actually. The Trim and Target AFR tables are unique to each map. You can pull the map off your PCV then save it without accepting the trims and they will still be there when you reopen it. I've been using this to backup the maps before accepting the trim values. So, 0Face, you can have your separate maps, but to get the affect you're asking about you will need to tailor the Target AFR tables to reflect your needs. I would suggest that you question large double digit adjustments and see how often they pop up in the same spot, and how they fluctuate, before accepting them. Especially if they're an enleanment value. I had two cells that are in the middle of an enriched zone where the trim table wanted me to take +7s down to -9 and -13 respectively. I'll keep an eye on them.

On that note, The active portion of the AFR tables you posted look kinda high to me. Personally I'd consider adding values down to 3000 RPM where they are currently 0s. Do you notice a hesitation in that RPM range when it switches from untrimmed (probably up to 14.7) to 12.8 (which is pretty fat)? But I also tend to putt around at lower RPMs in T mode. The lean area of the 5th Gear table looks about spot on for cruising. My SV has a PCV+AT installed but I only have one map table that's shared for all the gears because of the aTRE I have installed. Also, my knowledge is squarely based on this bike which has a full exhaust, a K&N air filter, and very different engine characteristics.

This video might have some food for thought, though.

 

[Queensland Ken]

With Autotune on, the bike uses the original map then adjusts the map accordingly to the set A:F, the bike runs on the adjusted /dynamic map constantly tuning.

Fueling continually changes.

If you accept the map, it will overwrite the original map.

If you don't like it, don't accept it and the original is still there.

Always backup each time with a time date stamp you can understand.

 

[0Face]

All great suggestions. Thanks.

 

[ajpagosa]

Remember if you load specific maps, you must then disable the Autotune function or the unit will adjust the tune to the set A:FDefinitely not good in areas of large changing elevations.

Do a learn ride with a wide variety of parameters, throttle, rpm, speed and when happy, save it straight away & turn off the Autotune.

I played around with the A:F and had a wonderful map made for my bike and riding style, then switched it off.

Good fuel economy while at my cruising speed, enriched the the areas where it needed it.

Mind you I had the LCD200, could view and log real time data, Initially used a 10" netbook in the tank bag, but wanted to diagnose, data log and proved my 07 had the High Altitude Surge.

Cost me a lot of $ to prove to Yamaha Australia that there was a problem with the ECU, finally they replaced it, all the fueling problems fixed like it should be from new.

Good points here. I've got an 07 with the altitude fix ECU, K&N, TBR exhaust, smog delete, . Have been running PCV + Autotune for couple of years at high altitude, 7k to 12k ft. ASL. Some thoughts.

1. Autotune REALLY hates big elevation changes. Eg, start with whatever base map, go for a day long ride through multiple high passes, bike gets progressively worse and worse, like running too rich, until end of day it bogs almost constantly.

2. It is not clear whether the base AFR table that is associated with canned maps is appropriate for FJR or just random. Have tried (many times) both the settings out of the box and my own and still get the same issues.

3. It is also not clear what the adaptation time scale is, or how the algorithm works. Ie, suppose AT senses too lean a condition. How long must that condition persist before it adds fuel, and then how long does that add stay in memory? Is it cumulative in some sense? What is the algorithm? I don't see how a map would just get richer and richer over a closed loop route of say 300 miles.

4. I agree the best way to use this is to find a flat area and do some pulls across full rpm range and throttle positions, inspect map, save it. Then turn off AT. Another alternative is find a good base map and then restrict the range of adaptation to say 5% or less.

5. What is puzzling is I have PCV + AT on 2 other Yamahas (a WR250R with a lot of mods and a Roadliner S). None of these problems with either of them.

6. Something else to consider. I also have an R1150GS Adv with older PC3 + wideband. It does fantastically well with only 1 AFR parameter to set, which is AFR for the entire rpm/throttle range. It is not clear whether this system uses the same algorithm however.

I haven't messed with the AT yet this season, end of last season I loaded a smoothness map and left the AT off. Plan on getting an LCD200 and playing with it soon, to be able to inspect/set/clear/modify tables while running see how that goes.

 

[Queensland Ken]

If you buy an LCD 200, it needs an old original SD card, not a high density, good luck.

It was real hard to find, my mate had one in a old GPS unit, might be lucky on ebay. The one main major drawback !!!!!

Keep any data log files small, only record for a short time.

It takes ages to convert then into a usable table.

It is also a bit frustrating to make up the dial screen, the display, just persist and a lot of trial and effort.

Have to program, design each parameter you wish to display, keep it simple and coloured so you can read it while riding.

 

[ajpagosa]

If you buy an LCD 200, it needs an old original SD card, not a high density, good luck.It was real hard to find, my mate had one in a old GPS unit, might be lucky on ebay. The one main major drawback !!!!!

Keep any data log files small, only record for a short time.

It takes ages to convert then into a usable table.

It is also a bit frustrating to make up the dial screen, the display, just persist and a lot of trial and effort.

Have to program, design each parameter you wish to display, keep it simple and coloured so you can read it while riding.

Well dang. Thanks for the heads up. I did not know that about the LCD200. Maybe just better to get a cheap tablet and run the Dynojet PCV software off that. Not really interested in recording any data, just being able to easily check/save/clear tables and change settings or turn things on/off without lugging a laptop around and stopping/plugging it into the PCV. I eventually need to get a tablet for some car tuning projects anyway, I could use it for all the bikes (PCV + AT and PC3) and the car as well I guess.

 

[BackintheSaddle]

Per Power Commander's Web Site:

"AutoTune for Power Commander VThe Auto Tune kit monitors the fuel mixture (by installing the included Wide Band O2 sensor in the exhaust). It then sends this information to the Power Commander V and automatically corrects it while you ride.

Each map that we offer has preset Air/Fuel ratio values included that we find to be the best overall settings. This lets you simply plug in the unit and let it do the work."

Sounds like the system is supposed to make real-time changes to the mixture.

AJ - it sounds like your FJR set-up is not working correctly. Bad O2 sensor perhaps?

 

[ajpagosa]

Per Power Commander's Web Site: "AutoTune for Power Commander VThe Auto Tune kit monitors the fuel mixture (by installing the included Wide Band O2 sensor in the exhaust). It then sends this information to the Power Commander V and automatically corrects it while you ride.

Each map that we offer has preset Air/Fuel ratio values included that we find to be the best overall settings. This lets you simply plug in the unit and let it do the work."

Sounds like the system is supposed to make real-time changes to the mixture.

AJ - it sounds like your FJR set-up is not working correctly. Bad O2 sensor perhaps?

Yeah it is supposed to make real time changes and it does. The issue at least on my bike at altitude is those changes don't seem to be an improvement. Good idea to check the O2 sensor, I'll do that. However it is making adjustments, and seems to read AFR properly at least reading off the laptop at idle and revving in the garage. It only has problems over long rides that involve big elevations changes. I'm set to do some maintenance this weekend, new plugs etc. and I'll start messing with maps again soon. Just swapped out a Gen 3 rear shock and thrilled with the improved handling. Would be nice to get the PCV up to speed.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Well dang. Thanks for the heads up. I did not know that about the LCD200. Maybe just better to get a cheap tablet and run the Dynojet PCV software off that. Not really interested in recording any data, just being able to easily check/save/clear tables and change settings or turn things on/off without lugging a laptop around and stopping/plugging it into the PCV. I eventually need to get a tablet for some car tuning projects anyway, I could use it for all the bikes (PCV + AT and PC3) and the car as well I guess.

I found that the LCD200 was better t read in real time, far better than my little 10" netbook stuck in a tank bag.

Was only the size of a cigarette packet and only had a basic display programed, eg RPM, target AF , A:F & throttle position.

I really needed a way to show Mr Yamaha here what was happening with the fueling.

Of the 3 dealers I went to, only one had brains enough to understand the figures.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Ajpagosa, why don't you just disconnect the PC-V and see how your bike runs. I've been all over Colorado with my '07 and have NEVER had a stumble. You haven't made any mods that require a furl programmer, so lose it for a bit and see if performance doesn't improve.

 

[ajpagosa]

Ajpagosa, why don't you just disconnect the PC-V and see how your bike runs. I've been all over Colorado with my '07 and have NEVER had a stumble. You haven't made any mods that require a furl programmer, so lose it for a bit and see if performance doesn't improve.

You know that is a really good idea! Thanks. I was going to start with the base PCV FJR map but I could just start with the zero map. See how it runs then turn on the AT200 with the canned AFR settings, but limited adjustment range.

My bike was one of the ones that needed a new ECU due to altitude issues. Absolutely unridable, dangerous after some elevation change. Would stall out randomly right when you needed to pass and just gt worse and worse until you stopped, shut it off, restart. I guess what happened was the algorithm for computing air density was not updating fast enough, and you'd get an accumulation of errors over time with large elevation changes to the point it was so far off it would not run. I've always wondered if that (new ECU) was part of the problem with the PCV and the AT200, since it is not the standard one so maps for it would be off.

Anyway the bike is not stock, it has K&N and two brothers exhaust. Those would tend to make it run lean but altitude somewhat pushes it the other direction (rich). So maybe starting with zero and seeing how that goes, then letting the AT200 work might be the right way to go. Will update when I get a chance. to do some basic maintenance and then try this idea out.

 

[RossKean]

I doubt that the K&N filter and the 2B exhaust would make a perceptible difference in terms of "leanness" or performance. There might be slight differences in PC settings but they aren't likely to be dramatic.

 

[ajpagosa]

I doubt that the K&N filter and the 2B exhaust would make a perceptible difference in terms of "leanness" or performance. There might be slight differences in PC settings but they aren't likely to be dramatic.

I tend to agree with you there, sort of. It will run OK but it will actually be measurably off in AFR. I base this opinion on tuning cars and other bikes where I had a logging capability or other feedback (like obvious pinging).

It has been a while but I did look at the cell values for the various Dynojet maps, and compared the one for no mods (not the zero map, the base map) and for my mods (K&N + TBR) and they were different. Every other bike/car I've had needed to be tuned one way or another for exhaust/intake mods. Oh I have one other mod, the PAIR delete.

Anyway I think the prior suggestion was a good one, which is start from the zero map and work up from there. This prodded me to consider something I haven't before, or at least not as carefully, which was perhaps the altitude fix updated ECU was starting from a different baseline tune than the Dynojet maps were developed on. I may just set it to zero and run out for a cruise later today.

 

[ajpagosa]

I just went back and checked, here are the OTS fuel maps from Dynojet for map 1 (all stock) vs map 2 (TBR exhaust). Not huge differences but still some, esp 40-80% columns, which oddly enough are far richer on map 2. Inspecting the AFR maps for both they look to be identical.

Map 1

Map 2

 

[ajpagosa]

OK, just thinking out loud here a bit. It has been a while since I messed with the FJR & Dynojet. Been running the AT200 off and base map shown above for maybe 2 years. In the mean time I have spent most of my tuning energy on a twin turbo straight 6 BMW, with methanol injection and other mods, trying to get it to run well at high altitude. Coming back now to the FJR there are some obvious things I was not considering at first.

1. At say 12k ft ASL, air density is nearly 1/3 less than that at sea level. Roughly 10 PSI vs 14.7. At 8k ft ASL (my house), it is just under 11 PSI.

2. The Dynojet maps I will assume were run at or near sea level. Or at least far below where I do most of my riding.

3. Having said that the stock ECU map with O2 sensor disconnected (as recommended by dynojet) is going to be far too rich (like by a lot at 12k ft). The stock ECU will not adapt for AFR with the O2 sensor disconnected, though it will use its internal tables and MAP sensors etc. to compute whatever it can (speed-density type open loop). Nobody knows what the range of that is.

4. The Dynojet maps add a whole bunch of fuel in places, exacerbating the baseline richness issue.

5. With the AT200 connected it is not clear to me that whatever range I had it set for (usually +/- 10%) was enough to undo both the baseline richness of the ECU's internal (fixed) maps and tables, and certainly not the Dynojet non-zero maps' extra fuel. Also can see how the maps might get confused or at cross purposes with the ECU speed density computations, esp if shooting for something well out of range of either/both.

6. Given I have up to 1/3 less air density up here, it seems the best approach would be to start with the zero map, with factory ECU's in open loop due to O2 sensor being gone. Then bring on the AT200 with standard AFR tables, but restricting adjustments to maybe +/- 5%. See how that goes, evaluate driveability, inspect tables, compare to other OTS maps, etc.