Practicing panic stops on the FJR with ABS

[Scoop Dogg]

Hi all, my first post outside the newbie section, try not to flame me too much

I've had a few bikes with ABS and I've done a fair bit of emergency braking, although it has to be said that most of my riding is two-up. I've rarely engaged ABS and never on dry roads. I've only witnessed this once when in a 4 bike convoy where the lead bike did a ridiculously unexpected emergency stop when he missed a turn. The resulting slinky spring meant the last bike (BMW K1200S) got big in my mirrors far too quick. As I stopped he went past with full ABS operation.

It was a lovely sound but it was almost drowned out by the noise of my arse chomping away at the seat vinyl.

I have to say it isn't a situation I would like to replicate for fun; I like to leave the ABS in it's box for when I do need it and, hopefully, it'll do its job.

 

[SkooterG]

Question for you guys getting the ABS activated on dry roads... are you using both brakes or just the front? I know it has linked brakes, no need to explain. I'm asking are you using just the front with your hand or foot also on rear brake?

Also, are you just grabbing the front as hard as you can right off the bat? Just curious as to why it's working for you and not me...

It's hard enough to get abs activation just applying one brake. So no, I don't use both when testing. Try one first, then the other.

In my not so humble opinion when max braking the FJR it's more like 90% front and 10% rear, but I agres BOTH should be used when max braking. And I can't even imagine trying to max brake the FJR with one hand off the bars. There is a lot of force pushing you forward that you need to counteract. And if you are two-up, you are now also pushing for that person behind you who is sliding against you.

Oh, and I think anybody who has an abs bike and doesn't test it to see how it works is a bleepin idiot.

 

[RadioHowie]

I'll add to what SkooterG says, in that if you've never activated the ABS in an emergency situation, than you weren't in an emergency situation!

 

[SacramentoMike]

I test mine by actually making panic stops. In a real panic. On the streets. On the freeway. Lots of times. California drivers drive funny.

Oh, and I use both brakes. No problem getting the ABS to engage.

 

[SkooterG]

Oh, and I use both brakes. No problem getting the ABS to engage.

It's a lot easier on a Gen I. That is one bone I'll throw our Gen II pansy brothers and sisters - Gen II abs is far more sophisticated than Gen I abs, albeit at more expense and complication. If you get a chance, demo a Gen II someday and play with the ABS. It's quite impressive.

 

[SacramentoMike]

Somebody loan me their Gen II so I can go out and slam on the brakes? Please? Thanks.

 

[FJR Bill]

I'll add to what SkooterG says, in that if you've never activated the ABS in an emergency situation, than you weren't in an emergency situation!

+1 on that. The only time I used full ABS(not on a FJR) was in an absolute panic stop to avoid a van that unexpecdedly stopped in front of me...My eyes were looking to the side, when my eyes looked back forward, there he was stopped! Now at this point all braking theory was thrown out by my brain. Instead I hit front and rear brakes as hard as physically possible. Couldn't believe how quick I stopped with no skidding what so ever. My front wheel ended up about 6 inches from his rear bumper...so no hit. The ABS was there when I needed it and prevented a crash. Ya gotta love it.

Bill

 

[mcatrophy]

Couple of points.

An interesting test on ABS here, included FJ1200s with and without ABS.

My 2010 FJR's ABS is less intrusive than my 2006's. Don't know if the brakes are better, but certainly impressive.

[soap-box]

I'd make a comment about "just the front brake" or "both brakes". In my World, roads are never perfectly smooth, dry, grippy tarmac. If dry they're dusty, else (usually) damp, uneven, potholed, littered with tar snakes, ironworks and painted lines. That means near 1G stops are not the norm, and only then could you argue that the rear brake is ineffective. So, I always practice with both brakes, then when a real emergency comes up my muscle memory uses both, which can give the best stopping distance whatever the conditions.

In any case, when you first start to apply the brakes, no weight transfer has taken place. You use the back brake to help transfer the weight as you build up the front brake pressure, that'll give the shortest stopping distance. That's what needs to be practiced to make it automatic. Also true for ABS or non-ABS. And, if the ABS is operating, you're past the best deceleration. It's a safety-net, not the best way.

[/soap-box]

 

[azitlies]

Wanted to say Thanks to everyone who's responded to my post, or any part of this.

One thing for sure guys... if you don't practice emergency braking (ABS or Not), yer doing yourself a disservice. Don't be one of those riders that thinks "I'll do it when I need it"... because you probably WON'T. It takes a lot of practice and nerve to use those brakes to their max, Not practicing will probably result in the rider fixating on the target and being too afraid to use all the braking power they got.

 

[dcarver]

I practice often..

the rear DOES take alot of pedal pressure to engage ABS.. too much, next round will be Galfer rotors, ss lines, and what not.

I also routinely practice ABS engagement *and* steering away from my imagined target. It's not as easy as it sounds, try it sometime.

Another good exercise that probably will cost you a mirror and plastic is to put a piece of 12 x12 plywood under the front tire, lock the brake, and from a standstill, see how far you push forward before releasing the brake... :lol: I do this exercise too.. just to keep the reactions sharp.

YMMV don't blame me if you dump it! :lol:

 

[HotRodZilla]

When I went through cop MC school, we learned to ride with our toe "covering" the brake pedal. The theory is that in a panic stop, as the rider's weight pushes forward, the foot will come down and sort of automatically begin compression on that rear brake. At the least, it lessens the time it would take to think about moving the foot into position to engage the brake.

I practice engaging my ABS on a pretty regular basis. I really enjoy the linked system, and can lock up both ends at the same time. I also know about where the limits are and can stop fast without the ABS kicking in. I have only had the front kick in maybe once on the street. I have had the rear do it more times than I have kept track of. I learned to ride on dirt-bikes, and sometimes, the grab the rear brake habit is hard to break.

 

[Bungie]

Just bought a bike with combined ABS. Never having ridden a bike with ABS before it's time I find me an empty parking lot somewhere and practice hauling it down from speed (hey, it's a 2-fitty! 'Speed' is a relative term).

 

[wfooshee]

On a complete side note, motorcycles don't stay upright by gyroscopic force from rotating wheels. They stay up by steering in the direction they're about to fall, and putting the wheels back under the center of gravity. Leaning to turn is nothing more than almost falling, but keeping the bike headed into the fall. To stop the turn, you steer TOWARDS the lean (by pressing the upper handlebar) it to bring the wheels back under the bike and stop falling that direction.

So if you lock a wheel, the bike will fall (DAMHIK,) but it's not because it lost a gyroscope. It's because you can't steer locked wheels, so you can't control where the center of gravity ends up. When it's off to one side, the bike goes bonk to that side.

And to the OP, there was a bike called the FJ prior to the FJR, so the stuff about older FJs was not a joke, it was useful information about a different motorcycle model.

 

[lnewlf]

I exercise the ABS on dirt roads, meebe 20 or 30 mph. Not to worry about the front washing out-it won,t. This is good for the rider and also the ABS pump which likes to seize it's piston due to H2O in the system. I can't count the times I saw Jesus when the brakes locked on my FJ-[mea culpa]-oh yeah, last year for those beasts was '93.

 

[Fred W]

On a complete side note, motorcycles don't stay upright by gyroscopic force from rotating wheels. They stay up by steering in the direction they're about to fall, and putting the wheels back under the center of gravity. Leaning to turn is nothing more than almost falling, but keeping the bike headed into the fall. To stop the turn, you steer TOWARDS the lean (by pressing the upper handlebar) it to bring the wheels back under the bike and stop falling that direction.

So if you lock a wheel, the bike will fall (DAMHIK,) but it's not because it lost a gyroscope. It's because you can't steer locked wheels, so you can't control where the center of gravity ends up. When it's off to one side, the bike goes bonk to that side.

And to the OP, there was a bike called the FJ prior to the FJR, so the stuff about older FJs was not a joke, it was useful information about a different motorcycle model.

+2000

My man Walt has this shit figgered out.

People that talk about gyroscopic action keeping a motorcycle upright probably failed HS physics and later went into poli sci.

So the obvious question is:

If you were riding a motorcycle on a conveyor belt and locked up the brakes at 150 mph, could you still take off?

 

[Surly]

Hi All,

the very best way to practice panic stops has to be to ride as fast as you dare through deer(kangaroo) infested country.

I expect that sooner or later you will get to practice a panic stop. Best to take a pair of clean undies though.

I have 2004 with ABS, I can feel it activate, would not ride a bike without it again.

Upright not Uptight

Regards

Surly

h34r:

 

[RadioHowie]

On a complete side note, motorcycles don't stay upright by gyroscopic force from rotating wheels.

My man Walt has this shit figgered out.

People that talk about gyroscopic action keeping a motorcycle upright probably failed HS physics and later went into poli sci.

Yep...these boys are "Wicked Smart", no doubt....

However, slowing to stop at a stop sign, keeping the REVS up on the motor will create gyroscopic forces that can let you come to a complete stop with both feet on the pegs, wait for a 4-count, then drive off from a complete stop without ever putting down a foot. All that rotational mass in the motor spinning around 3k rpm WILL help hold the bike upright. Of course, a big fat, FLAT rear tire helps.

 

[Scoop Dogg]

So the obvious question is:

If you were riding a motorcycle on a conveyor belt and locked up the brakes at 150 mph, could you still take off?

Not with shaft drive, obviously.

:yahoo:

 

[MajBach]

On a complete side note, motorcycles don't stay upright by gyroscopic force from rotating wheels. They stay up by steering in the direction they're about to fall, and putting the wheels back under the center of gravity. Leaning to turn is nothing more than almost falling, but keeping the bike headed into the fall. To stop the turn, you steer TOWARDS the lean (by pressing the upper handlebar) it to bring the wheels back under the bike and stop falling that direction.

So if you lock a wheel, the bike will fall (DAMHIK,) but it's not because it lost a gyroscope. It's because you can't steer locked wheels, so you can't control where the center of gravity ends up. When it's off to one side, the bike goes bonk to that side.

And to the OP, there was a bike called the FJ prior to the FJR, so the stuff about older FJs was not a joke, it was useful information about a different motorcycle model.

Completely disagree with this statement. Rigidity in space from gyroscopic force does keep a bike doing what it is presently doing. This is why a bike wants to stand up in a turn if you take pressure off the bars: i.e., the plane of rotation of the tires are carving an arc through the turn (in other words, an acceleration) and gyroscopic precession (the law that a force applied to a spinning object is manifested 90 degrees in the direction of rotation from the point where the force was applied)lifts the bike back up. This is the opposite effect but same principle as how counter steering works. In your theory, a bike would fall over if in fact it was on a tread mill traveling the opposite direction to the bike's wheels (say 150 mph) and there was no relative movement to the ground. In reality, the bike would stand since the wheels moving at 150 mph would provided enough rigidity.

 

[MajBach]

I totally digressed with my last post and wanted to add something more on-topic.

I think this is a good thread to have going and am benefiting from it as I too practice emergency braking but am still not 100% comfortable with it.

I too have not been able to activate the ABS on dry pavement and it's reassuring to hear others find the amount of rear brake pressure required to be excessive so at least I know there is nothing wrong with the bike.

However, after recently struck a deer and wondering often how hard/efficiently I used my brakes immediately prior to the impact, I find myself practicing even more yet becoming increasingly less confident in either my abilities or stability of the bike. To elaborate, I just returned from a 8 day road trip covering 2400 miles. During the trip, I applied full braking ('full' meaning my comfort level full)several times just to remind myself of the feel. I didn't feel right ever. For one, the braking almost seemed to powerful for the bike and I never was confident enough to grip the lever as hard as I could. Secondly, on several stops, the bike felt 'soft' or unstable. It was like the asphalt was freshly poured and I was sinking in it as the front wheel got heavy. It was a very uneasy feeling. My first thought was that the forks were going to buckle underneath me (that should make it easier to visualize the feeling). My second reaction was that the bike was not repaired properly or a bolt was missing post-accident. Both of those concerns were laid to rest when on several stops, the bike did hold a straight line. Nevertheless, on occasion, the sensation would return during some stops. On one stop, I actually got off and checked my tire pressure as - ironically, as someone posted here earlier, under ideal braking, your front tire should almost flatten, which is actually how it felt.

Hopefully I will figure this out in time but I wonder if anyone else understands what I am referring to.

Finally, I am still not confident applying heavy braking while in a turn. My reflex is to stand the bike up first. Having learned as a youngster first hand what happens (and how easier it is to do) when you apply brakes in a heavy lean, it is very hard for me to intentionally do this as an adult. Has anyone the experience of applying heavy braking in a lean and does the ABS really allow you to?