Professional Oil Analysis

[Shane]

@LSUBOY,

Rock on.

@jestal,

:clap:

Yup,

Shane

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

jestal  Posted on Feb 2 2006, 03:30 PM<snip>Yea, my comments were pertaining to the average one-off oil analysis situation.

The fact is that oils are generally pretty good and the infamous "oil related failures" are very few and very far between. The likelyhood of having a failure that is caused by oil or could be prevented by an oil change is very very slight. In the case of fleets, if there was a single overriding problem with the powerplant that manifested itself in some way in the lubricate qualities then possibly oil analysis could help.....but that is work the engine developer should have done, not the fleet operator.

I still think that most all oil analysis programs are more for piece of mind than to really accomplish anything. I could be wrong but I have never seen a situation where oil analysis really pointed to a problem or situation that could have been mitigated by an oil change or other lubricant related intervention.

Probably the nicest thing about a regular oil sampling and analysis program is that it insures an add of fresh oil on a regular basis (to make up for what the sample removed). That spike of additives from the fresh oil added to the sump goes a long way to improving the actual life of the oil in the sump.

I'm very much in agreement with much of what you say and the examples you cite. Especially concerning one-off samples and the "sweetening" of the lube oil additive package. Still, OA accomplishes and has accomplished oil drain intervals, lube selection/requirements, fuel dilution problems, and even pending problem mechanical issues (even though you've never seen a situation) for many fleet owners for decades -- starting with the railroads when diesel/electrics came in and continuing with almost every major company with fleet investments (like U.S.Steel/USX, for just one notable example). And, not all ppms are high -- OA shows good results, too (your "warm & fuzzy" feeling).All this is really moot, tho. LSUBOY is gonna have his oil tested and apparently needs to know what (if any?) differences will show-up between the oil brands he chose and wants to determine his very-own oil drain intervals. It seems like he wants to be that "development engineer" you mentioned? He doesn't want to take MamaYama's advice about what to use & when to change it?

Let's just wish him luck in his endeavors, shall we? And see what happens....

 

[jestal]

You mention a good point with the large diesels and oil analysis. Things like ships and locomotives and such run such huge volumes of oils and the "change" intervals are so long (if ever) that oil analysis provides a record of engine condition.

Most of the fleet type analysis that I have seen the results of (only a few that were published) were usefull after the fact in proving oil maintenance and oil condition after another problem occured. The problems that prompted looking at the oil analysis had cropped up already and the oil program did not really prevent anything from happening.

Oil analysis data is always interesting to look at but I just caution anyone from making too firm a conclusion based on the "numbers" from just a few samples under one set of conditions.

What really chaps me is when I read a post on BITOG where someone gets one oil analysis done (because someone on BITOG recommended it) and others chime in with all sorts of recommendations on change intervals and oils to use and additives to "correct" the "problems" seen in the analysis. All from one single oil analysis that didn't even show the ZDP concentration remaining. BITOG is perpetuating the myth of the infallibility of oil analysis and oil additives and such. Usually when someone gets on an oil anaylsis kick it seems to start with that site which is nothing more than a shill for snake oil salesmen and oil analysis labs (Blackstone)....

Sorry for the rant....LOL.

 

[NC_Yank]

Me thinketh that some needeth more ride time and less tinkerineth.

I have several friends that love to work on there cars, especially the engine.

What is sad is that they can spend so much of their weekend tinkering then

out their actually enjoying what they have.

Today I will change the oil and filter on my FJR for the first time......but trust me,

I have not given a whole lot of thought to it other then the fact it allows me to

continue what I enjoy most about the bike...................the ride.

Absolutely a great site......

NC_Yank

 

[S76]

There are a few of good reasons for oil analysis that I can think of.

1. I work on helicopter turboshaft engines and there is a component in the engine that is prone to wear. You either have to split the engine in half every 500 hours to inspect it or do oil samples every 50 hours to detect the wear. Good use of oil analysis.

2. On turbo charged or regular engines you can see elevated metals if something is tearing up. It doesn't prevent anything, just gives an advanced warning so you possibly can take action before more damage is done. It can also sometimes help identify the component by the type of metal. Still nothing proactive here.

3. On vehicles it can point to intake air filtration problems by indicating the silicone content of the oil. Good proactive use.

4. Oil samples can point to chlorine content and acid content which may indicate the need to change oil.

But as jestal said, they really don't tell you when the oil is worn out. If your oil looses it's lubricity before it is contaminated with something you just aren't going to know. So I don't think your going to get what you are looking for and can possibly do some damage in the mean time if you go too long.

Maybe I'm all wet here but for $120 worth of oil samples you change your oil with the best oil and filter as often as you want for years.

bob

 

[gr8eyes]

NC YANK, I agree with you that its more fun to get out and ride but I suspect there is a large part of the population that does enjoy the tinkering part as much as the ride.

Glenn

 

[jestal]

S76, I agree with you completely completely. Well put. You make the point very well that I was trying to illustrate. There are certainly specific instances (like the helicopter powertrain) that oil analysis can be used as a tool for maintenance. The problem that I keep trying to warn people about is that just because it works for one instance does not make it gospel for all situations. Take oil analysis with a large grain of salt except in very specific cases where it is specifically designed as a diagnostic or maintenance tool.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

S76 Posted on Mar 5 2006, 09:47 PM<snip>

But as jestal said, they really don't tell you when the oil is worn out. If your oil looses it's lubricity before it is contaminated with something you just aren't going to know. So I don't think your going to get what you are looking for and can possibly do some damage in the mean time if you go too long.

I don't think oil analysis will do any damage... But, you raise a good point -- one of the problems often associated with OA is (oil manufacturers, or anyone with a vested interest) ascribing concomitant long drain intervals just because OA is on the scene. It's a fallacy to think that just because you know what's going on it automatically relates to longer drain intervals -- it could, depending on results, lead to shorter ones. It will, tho, show higher ppms of wear metals when something's amiss -- like reduction in efficacy of the additive package (e.p., anti-wear, etc).

In this (LSUBOY's case), he's just looking for information. In that, I think he'll get just what you get with your helicopter samples -- if there's anything wrong it'll show-up.

He may, tho (as you state), just be spending some money. May be worth it just to know everything's okay?

 

[fjrchooser]

My own bike gets an inexpensive professional oil analysis every 3000 miles or so. A consistent, repeatable 10 step process for drawing the sample is key to accurate results :

1. Compute mileage / time since last change, if below 3000miles / 3 months in crankcase its fine.

2. Above 3000 miles / 3 months in crankcase, bring engine to operating temp

3. Stop engine

4. Place oil recycling container under bike

5. Remove oil drain plug , observe oil color as it drains

6. Reposition pan to prevent further spillage

7. Stick your fingers into the oil flow briefly

8. Swear , somehow it helps deaden the pain of scalded fingers a bit.

9. Take a sniff of the oil and burned fingers mixture, rub fingers together to see if they still have feeling.

10. Shrug and announce to yourself, "Yep, that needed changing"

Works everytime for me.

 

[Scab]

Now, when you come up with the "no finger burn" test, you'll have me. What about a taste test?

Tastes like chicken vs. tastes like chicken shit, or some similar gradient scale.

 

[fjrchooser]

Well Scab, you could just skip steps 7 & 9. Replace 8 with a burned wrist from contacting the exhaust system while removing the drain plug but then it wouldn't be very scientific !

Somewhere along the line cussing is required, otherwise you may as well take it to a quick change place. Beware of the pit though...