Rear Power Slide

[OrangevaleFJR]

On a group ride this weekend, MadMike, BlueStreek, Manager, and myself all experienced the rear wheel breaking loose just a tad as we rolled on the accelerator in turns. The roads had been rained on quite a bit previously, but seemed dry. I do think that some moss/algae could have caused the slickness on the road. However it was a pretty cool feeling where the back tire lost a portion of adhesion, but you could still feel the bite. I corrected with an imperceptable handlebar push, and kept the throttle steady for a split second rather than continuing the roll on. Once traction was back, I rolled on again out of the turn.

It was a fairly spirited pace, but not near the G loads that I have had on that road before. Frankly, it was as fun as **** to have the back do that during acceleration although it seems I should have been scared. It was totally controllable, and my heart never skipped a beat as it can tend to do when a true unwelcome surpise occurs.

Anyone else get this sensation before? BlueStreek said that at first he wondered if his rear tire was going flat until he realized it was a little slip. Again, this was only upon acceleration through the turn, not at turn entry. Pushing on a twisty during Sierra winter is a first for me on this ride...those more experienced know the cause?

Again, road seemed dry to me!

 

[rdfrantz]

The only times that's happened for me of late has been when the road had what I call snot on it, and not just water. In some mountain zones, mineral compounds get washed on to the surface, and can be quite less tractive than the unadorned pavement.

That seems to occur in isolated places, or isolated short zones, not a many mile stretch of road. However, if the road has been treated with an ice prevention compound, or even an ice reduction compound, I'd be willing to accept it's residue might be slick. I did encounter that in sports cars in New Hampshire quite a few years ago.

Otherwise, I wonder at the road surface temperature - and its effect on tire temperature. I have had tires become very slick, but those temps were below freezing. None the less, I back off my vigor when temps fall into the 40s.

I will relate that water can remain on tar/stone road surfaces, and look quite dry - at low temps, and in high relative humidity, where evaporation is slowed greatly. The road surface will feel quite slick to the hand. Water is trapped right in the poors of the stones. Whether it gets sucked to the surface to act as ball bearings by the leading edge of the contact patch, or simply promotes cooler road and tire temps, I can't really say.

I've only had a consistent experience like that because of a tire. In '72 I owned a Suzuki 750GT. Goodyear re-entered the motorcycle tire market with a "GT" tire. Intended to give good touring wear, it turned out to have a too hard compound. The 750GT, despite being a 2-stroke, had Big Torque for that time. I could leave every corner with the tail hung out to apparently any desired angle. This was on dry roads, since I didn't purposely ride in the rain back then. It was easy to control, and I enjoyed it immensely. But, Goodyear discontinued their participation, and I moved on to the evolving stickier and longer lived tires.

Best wishes.

 

[FJRocha]

OrangevaleFJR, I am glad you enjoy your rides, and that you get a thrill on those turns, but you only need to screwup once to mess things up really bad. Dude you might want to polish your technique a little.

When the rear tire slides off in a turn due to a spin, you need to stay on the accelerator, keeping the pressure on the rear tire will help it to maintain friction. If you decelerate or God forbids use your brakes, you will be effectively transferring the weight to the front tire and taking it off the rear, which in turn results on more slide. Also, the bike will stabilize by itself during a slide if left alone. Doing "corrections" to the handlebars will only make it worst. Try to keep your arms from tensioning or locking up, and keep your elbows flexible. Ideally, you want only one steering movement per turn.

Please ride safely.

 

[madmike2]

Does this qualify O'valeFJR as a Hoon?

Temps were in the low 50's, but I'm going with the theory of trapped moisture as the incidents seemed to have happened on "tight" corners (like 120-160 degree radii) that usually are hidden from the sun this time of year.

I was definitely NOT pushing the speed compared to what that road will carry in the Summer. I felt we were at the top of the "safe" zone for the conditions, and obviously we were at the edge of the safe zone. I felt mine go "wiggly" once, my mind blew past the "flat tire theory" and deduced that my right wrist should close throttle ever so slightly.

Good comment about technique! Once I moved my, er, uhm , ample posterior of the edge of the Russell seat and leaned my shoulder out where it should be, the wiggly feeling was not reproduced. Of course, that also meant Orangevale made it to the stop sign at least 1 second quicker than we did!

What a fun afternoon! All this after we got turned around on one road (1500 feet higher) because the snow drifts were blocking out route. Yee-freakin'-haw, we was out ridin'!

 

[Toynut]

Just think of the FJR as one big dirt bike..........NOT!

I enjoy sliding in the soft stuff- off road, but a big, heavy, pretty FJR would be a great pity to lowside regularly for "fun".

P.S. Michigan riders tend to practice this technique (unintentionally) quite regularly in the spring, due to road salt residue(real early in the season), or loose asphalt/sand/gravel on the road due to frost heaves and such.

I once forgot I wasn't on a dirt bike and kicked myself upright with one foot on a loose substrate corner, while riding my V-Strom. :blink: Even though I stayed upright and successfully managed the turn, I currently make sure to forget all former off road riding habits/tendencies while riding +500 lb bikes.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Ride safe!

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Dude you might want to polish your technique a little.

How come you don't give the link for the riding book to ME? How come I don't get the link?

I think everyone needs to work on technique no matter how much they've been on a bike. Thank goodness, I've never been OFF a street bike, because better riders than me have!

 

[Toecutter]

How come you don't give the link for the riding book to ME? How come I don't get the link? 

Here you go. I also reccomend the "Total Control" book by Lee Parks. Big ups to Exskibum for showing me the pathway to enlightenment.

I think everyone needs to work on technique no matter how much they've been on a bike. Thank goodness, I've never been OFF a street bike, because better riders than me have!

You said it!

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Lee Parks bookThanks!!!

 

[Bluestreek]

As I was riding two up I definitely was not pushing it. I felt the tire loosing some grip. It did feel as though the tire was going flat. At no time did I feel out of control. I simply eased off the throttle and regained grip. Most of the riders in our group experienced the same thing. :cownoy:

 

[weekend rider]

Yep it was great riding this weekend with a different element about the road just waitingf for you to screw up. I had mine break a little with water in a turn. That was ok it was when I was a little to fast into a corner just after the snow when we turned aroud that got my attention. Tree pine needle are just like roller bearing, rear wheel broke lose a little stayed with it checked my draws ( O K ) slowed down a little and still had a great ride.

I thought every one handle the adversed condition very well and had a great time . A good group to ride with when is the next ride ?

I like your pace on the rides I have ridden with I hope everyone feels the same orangevale rider you do a great job on these rides

weekend rider

The only thing that was missing was the picture lady (sherri, orangevale rider"s wife ) she takes the best pictures and then we get to see what we missed on the ride

 

[falcon]

I have a harley vrod tire on my back rim(wore out my Z6 mid-trip),it barely fits (right diamater, wrong profile)..but since its a wierd profile with a tiny contact patch when leaned over, I did leave a nice black streak on the Talimena Scenic Drive coming out of a downhill/uphill hairpin - don't tell anyone! h34r:

 

[FtLFjr]

Anyone else get this sensation before?

Consider yourself lucky... I had a similar thing happen to me on Labor Day and it cost me a pair of saddle bags, a pair of moko's, a left handlebar a left peg, a right hiway peg and a windshield. All told about $1500 worth of parts and it's got me scared to death of rolling the throttle on too spirited coming out of a turn.

The rearend came around on me with way too little effort. Still haven't quite figured out what happened. Just remember hearing the revs go up ever so slightly and watching the Feejer slide away from me in slow motion. It really sucked to be me about that time. :blink:

 

[HIGHLANDER]

.... I do think that some moss/algae could have caused the slickness on the road.......

This is the case in the coastal mountain range on some roads. There is an algae you cannot see unless your almost on the ground, it almost invisible and it is some slippery stuff. It usually appears after the first few rains then tapers off. Highway 84 from Alice's Restaurant down to the coast is famous for it, causes a few wrecks every year.

 

[MCRIDER007]

Pushing on a twisty during Sierra winter is a first for me on this ride...those more experienced know the cause?
Again, road seemed dry to me!

It would seem that pavement with a cold surface would have less traction but I have never seen any hard data on that subject. One thing that can definitely afftect traction in winter is tire temperature, or the tire's inability to heat up enough. If you normally run high pressures, say 42 psi in the rear, you can expect the tire to heat about 50-55 degrees over the air temperature. If the air temperature is 90F, then the tire's temperature once it is warmed up would be about 145F. If you run 42 psi when the air temperture is 50F, the same thing is going to happen but the tire is only going to heat to about 100F, which is not enough for good traction. When you combine low tire temperature with a cold pavement then traction is really going to suffer.

The solution: When the outside temperature drops, start out with lower tire pressures, about 10 percent less pressure for every 50F of temperature change. If your tires never lost any air, you would not have to adjust the air pressure at all, the pressure would drop as the temperature drops, you would start out at a lower pressure, but the tire would eventually heat up to the same temperature as when you ride in hot weather.

Another thing to be aware of in the winter is that the tire temperatures may drop very quickly when you stop or even slow down. I took a ride in 40 degree temperatures a month ago and checked my rear tire pressure after coming off the freeway. I then rode for 3 miles at 35 mph to my house and and checked my pressure as soon as I stopped. It had dropped 3 pounds in that distance and the tire was barely warm.

 

[RonBB]

One other thought-Beware of painted lines on a damp street- Very slick sometimes.

 

[Ronman]

This topic reminds me that dirt bikes are a great source of fun and education, and a relatively *safe* method of honing skills. Practicing power slides, wheelies and 'backing er in' corners, motard style, is great fun. Trouble is, when I'm hustling the FJR through a slick turn it's sometimes easy to foget I'm not in the dirt, and the occasional slide doesn't really phase me..... initially. I then realize this would be an easy bike to lose if it got away from me, and I make a mental note to slow it down a bit and be more cautious when looking into and through a turn.

As someone has already said, the best way to handle the bike if you feel the rear wheel getting loose is to not chop the throttle. In the dirt where you may have a sustained powerslide, you regulate the throttle depending upon how far the back end steps out. In this manner, you control the back end of the bike with your right hand. Chopping the throttle with the back stepped out would quickly launch you over the high side of the bike.

If the front starts to slide while leaned over, you steer away from the slide. For example, if you are leaning into a left hand corner and are counter steering by pushing on the left grip, when the bikes starts to slide you would intuitively (hopefully) take pressure away from the left grip (and maybe even push the right grip, if needed) and let the front tire regain traction. This is something you see flat trackers doing constantly as they work the front tire to steer and maintain traction.

I'd highly recommend riding a dirt bike to gain some skills for keeping the wheels under you while on the road. It's fun as hell no doubt, but more importantly, like many skills that require repetition before becoming instinctive, you will acquire reflexes that may save your arse when there is too little time for thinking, and only instinct stands between you and an impending crash.

 

[Scythian]

  If the front starts to slide while leaned over, you steer away from the slide.  For example, if you are leaning into a left hand corner and are counter steering by pushing on the left grip, when the bikes starts to slide you would intuitively (hopefully) take pressure away from the left grip (and maybe even push the right grip, if needed) and let the front tire regain traction.

Really good advice, with one exception--if the front end breaks loose, you are done with counter steering. You need to start actively steering 'into the slide' and letting the back-end drift out.

In your case of the left hand corner, once the front end starts starts sliding, you'd have to Push the Left handlebar and Pull on the Right to 'steer into the slide' and away from the corner. This'll pull the front wheel upright in the direction of your travel (and not the curve).

Of course, by now on a public road--you have run out of road, browned your shorts and are either going off-roading or hit the guardrail.

 

[madmike2]

Unless you are traveling at a reasonable speed, have braked/slowed before entry into the corner, are a "late entry" or "delayed apex" rider who has left himself enough space to get out of trouble, and are rolling on the throttle rather than "snapping" it open.

OTH, if you are riding at 8-9/10ths, are trying to clip the apex and have not left yourself a safety margin, then.......

Since we are all here and safe, no scratched bikes or bent people, let's consider it a warning for all who ride in the inclement Winter weather: It's not always what you see, but what you cannot see that will bite you.

 

[Saddletramp]

I am of the opinion that the shaft drive contributes to the rear slide phenomenon. Here's my example.

One of my first rides on the FJR I was riding on a variety of roads to give the engine various RPM's during break-in. I exited I-90 at an exit that I was a not familiar with with. The exit has a short off ramp, with a sharp curve, & an immediate speed reduction to 25 mph. Let's just say I was way too hot when I entered the corner. I jabbed the tranny down several gears & dumped the clutch. I now know that this was a dumb thing to do in a curve. I was leaned over pretty far as I felt the rear tire wanted to switch places with the front. I poured the throttle on and leaned over further. I escaped a come off this time! Thank God I ride dirt bikes too!

I later mulled the incident over in my mind & knew my FZ1 wouldn't have reacted to a downshift in that manner. It has chain drive. I think the chain would have taken out some of the torque before causing my tire to break loose. My Valkyrie has shaft drive but is so damned heavy, it wouldn't be able slide the rear tire.

Is the positive employment of shaft drive contributing to these rear slides or is my theory all wet?

I have since been much more careful when decelerating in a curve.