Remaining Oil Life Indicators

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JimLor

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I gotsta know…

Got an 07 Honda CR-V earlier this year to replace the absolutely worst piece of steamin’ crap vehicle we’ve ever owned (96 Chrysler Grand Caravan). The CR-V comes with the “Oil Life” indicator. I changed the oil at about 3,500 miles and around 7,500 miles. At the 7,500 mile mark the indicator still showed “40% oil life.”

My questions (2) for someone who “knows” the answer (although opinions are certainly welcome), (1) how does the indicator determine the % oil life left? Is it a runtime/temp mathematical algorithm; or are the sensors actually able to measure something in the oil that accurately predicts useful oil life remaining? And, (2) at what “percent remaining” should one change ones oil? Looking at it simply, one might assume you change it at 0%...

As a reference, Lorie drives the CR-V and the vast majority of her trips are of the short duration, low mileage type…which tells me the oil should be changed sooner rather than later as that type driving is supposedly harder on a vehicle than other types of driving. And yet, after 7.5k it still showed 40% oil life remaining. Heck, if I remember correctly

As part of the discussion, my head tells me that the two greatest advertising campaigns created by man (term “man” used in the context of “mankind” and is not gender specific – how’s that for being sensitive!) are those for HD motorcycles and the “change your oil every 3,000 miles” campaign. Even with the price of oil steadily rising and the global warming/conservation folks in full rant, I have not heard one single person suggest that changing your oil every 3,000 is excessive, frankly I'm amazed at that oversight and avenue of attack overlooked!

Bottom line is I really do want to know whether the oil life remaining indicators provide usefull information. Thanks.

 
Good question. I have a '05 Ford Freestyle, and it also has the % for oil life information. It seams to go off consistently around 5000 miles, which seams a little low considering I drive almost all highway miles, and I run Mobil 1 synthetic. More than anything I find this feature on the car to be an annoyance.

I run synthetic in my truck, and have gone just over 25K without changing the oil. I sent a sample of that oil in for analysis, and everything came back just fine. Granted, it is a diesel truck with 15 quarts of synthetic running through it, but still.

 
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Basically, the oil indicator is the manufacturer's maintenance schedule with automatic updates provided by your car's computer. The typical mfg basic oil change schedule is around 5K, but if you check the owner's manual you'll see that they want oil changed more often if you drive a lot of short distances, less under hot conditions, etc. The oil life indicator is essentially a look-up table that knows from the fuel injection computer how long your average trip is and some of the basic atmospheric conditions, so you don't have to play with the paper pages in the owners manual that nobody looks at anyway. If you live on a dirt road, the one thing that can mess up these computers is that they can't "see" dust, so if you do a lot of dirt roads they can be too optimistic.

Bob

 
These vary by manufacturer. Generally they are just fancy timers that watch the mileage and calendar for the standard schedule. Some also take into account cold start cycles and short trips that reduce the time between oil changes accordingly.

None that I am aware of actually have any kind of "sensor" that determines how good or bad your oil is.

 
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This is actually an interesting topic for me. I work at the Office of Naval Research and one of the programs here is a “sense and respond” system that will allow you to do “condition” based maintenance. Example, instead of changing the oil/trannie fluid every xx miles, the sensor will tell you when to do it. Various components of vehicles will have sensors that can alert the operator to an impending failure or when the condition is degrading (will even give a timeframe when the “thing” will fail). The goal is to only do maintenance when actually required rather than via a sked that does not take much of anything but mileage into account. We even have vehicles with sensors/computers that will electronically fill out maint requests (w/parts required) and automatically send them to the maintenance activity so they are ready to go when the vehicle arrives. Interesting stuff.

 
We have a 06 Monte Carlo with oil life and have been running about 6500 miles with 15-30 min. medium speed trips. However, here is S. FL, the engine is half warmed up before being started!!!!

 
Some of the car stuff is cool, but we've been using such things in the airlines for a long time and I know the Navy, power plants, and others have been pretty active, too.

While the majority of airliners are still old-school, it's been really incredible over my career as an A&P and engineer to see the evolution as computers came to integrate all of the sensors. Vibration monitoring of the turbines added to intelligence to temperature and pressure monitors to monitor wear and predict life accurately, sonic bearing wear monitors, pulse-testing of wiring harnesses between avionics boxes, referring between on-board live data to isolate specific components, and then send a message ahead to the next station to be ready with some widget. What I'm seeing of the new 787 systems is incredible!

Plus, since all of this information is collected for a fleet, the mx computers on the ground can do all sorts of tend and deviation monitoring, too.

 
I gotsta know…
...Got an 07 Honda CR-V earlier this year ...

...(1) how does the indicator determine the % oil life left?
I got the wife one also and have been wondering the same thing. Where's Jestal?

 
My questions (2) for someone who “knows” the answer (although opinions are certainly welcome), (1) how does the indicator determine the % oil life left? Is it a runtime/temp mathematical algorithm; or are the sensors actually able to measure something in the oil that accurately predicts useful oil life remaining? And, (2) at what “percent remaining” should one change ones oil? Looking at it simply, one might assume you change it at 0%...
This has been discussed before by jestal -- and, I think it comes down to their (GM's, in his case) experience with certain engines (mostly) when setting standards -- along with the computer keeping track of things? I've read somewhere (but, can't prove) that a German car company (BMW?) has a sight glass in an oil line for further information in making the oil change mileage computation/decision.

'TriggerT': ....have gone just over 25K without changing the oil. I sent a sample of that oil in for analysis, and everything came back just fine.
Ultimately, this (oil analysis) along with record keeping are the tools for determining oil change intervals for your engine operating in your environment.

Altho, you may end-up merely proving that your Honda's dash indicator is correct -- that they've successfully done their homework?

Even with the price of oil steadily rising and the global warming/conservation folks in full rant, I have not heard one single person suggest that changing your oil every 3,000 is excessive, frankly I'm amazed at that oversight and avenue of attack overlooked!
"Click & Clack", Car Talk, have over the years increased the mileage at which they tell people to change oil -- but they're still conservative, imo.

Bottom line is I really do want to know whether the oil life remaining indicators provide usefull information. Thanks.
Any data can be useful information -- it's all in the processing..... ;) :) .....You're welcome

 
There is a book waiting to be written about automotive oil life monitors and what they can and cannot do.

The easy answer is that it is highly likely that the autocompany in question has done their homework and that their on-board oil life monitor can be trusted....and that it will have a fair safety margin as to when it recommends changing the oil. I would endorse following the oil life monitor.

Many reasons for confusion on the oil changing subject:

Oil quality has changed dramatically over the years and is easily capable of longer change intervals than oils in the past. Even in the last few years oil additives and base oil and viscosity improver stock has improved making this possible. Current oils have much higher temperature capability than older oils. This fact alone guarantees more miles between changes due to oxidation rates.

All engines are NOT created equal when it comes to oil change intervals. A 66 Chevelle muscle car engine will need different oil and much more frequent changes than a 2008 Malibu. Engine design has a GREAT deal to do with it. Older engines had rubbing element lifters, distributor drive gears, spur gear oil pumps, rubbing element rocker arms, etc. etc. all these "features" require far more of the lubricant than modern engines and wear out the oil (or use up the antiwear agents) much quicker. This is the first place to become suspicious of ANYONE that mandates a singular change interval (like every 3000 miles) for all engines. Just does not compute.

Nor can you go back and use the logic of 8000 or 12,000 mile change intervals commonly seen on newer cars on older vehicles since they do not age the oil the same at all.

Modern engines have roller tappets, roller rocker arms, roller cam followers (OHC), gerotor oil pumps, no distributor gears, roller chains, etc. etc. All these features make the engine much more robust for oil quality, do not tear up the oil nearly as much and allow much longer oil change intervals as the engine does not treat the oil as bad and can run with much more degraded oil than in the past with absolutely no problem. In addition, the PCV systems for cleaning the crankcase oil of contaminants (fuel/water/combustion byproducts) have all been significantly upgraded on modern engines which significantly extends oil life. Many modern engines that have very long change intervals run larger sumps (6 or 7 quarts vs. 5) which also allows extended change intervals.

Just because one engine has a sludging or deposit problem with the oil does not mean that the change intervals of other manufacturers are wrong. Toyota has a huge problem with slugde formation in some of their engines and still recommend relatively short change intervals becuase of this. Their PCV systems were pretty ineffective on those engines. Not all engines are equal when it comes to oil life.

As mentioned, driving cycle is the single largest factor in determining when the oil in any given engine should be changed. Short trips are much harder on the oil than long trips....although much urban driving is fine since the oil does get warmed up. Winter driving is much worse on the oil than summer driving, period.

For the record there are engines out there with oil quality sensors as well as the more common oil life monitor that resides as software in the engine controller that models engine oil life based on engine operating parameters. Some engines use both. Software is simple and easy and VERY reliable as no moving parts are added. Software sytems are also relatively inexpensive for the vehicle as no additional sensors or wiring is required. Any of the oil quality sensors require wiring (along with the actual sensor itself) , create a potential failure and leak path and have proven to be somewhat troublesome in the field. Some react to addtives in the newer oils as well as contaminates.

Not all oil life systems are equal. The first of those systems were developed by GM and released back in the 1986 model year. The GM systems are extremely sophisticated models that were developed based on oil quality sampling techniques as miles accrued on the development vehicles. The GM systems use all the engine operating parameters, ambient and oil temperature, trip length, soak times, etc. to accurately model the engine oil life. Each vehicle is calibrated for that specific powertrain and then validated against actual oil life (via sampling) on durability vehicles. I have personally worked on a number of these programs as well as the development and validation of the original oil life monitor programs back in the 80's and can assure you that the oil life monitor is uncannily accurate and always has a significant safety factor regarding oil change interval. The oil life algorithms have seen a lot of development since they were first developed in the early 80's at GM and they are even more accurate today.

Each time you start the engine the affect on oil life is slightly different from the previous trip. That is pretty hard to keep track of mentally...i.e....how much "long trip" and "short trip" time has accumulated as well as how do you weight each trip accordingly. This is one of the beauties of an oil life monitor. It is always tracking and decrementing the oil life accordingly.

I would recommend following the oil life monitor. No manufacturer is going to put a system on a vehicle without validating it to some extent. The systems that will recommend the longer change intervals are typically the more sophisticated and accurate to ensure adequate safety factor. Simpler systems will be based on less variables and keep track of less things but are still much better than guessing. Many GM vehicles will repeatedly run to 12,500 or 15,000 mile change intervals with absolutely no concern over oil quality. Been there and done that too many times to tell. I trust the GM oil life system completely.

I spoke to a customer once who was basically lambasting the oil life monitor on his 1997 Eldorado as being "out to lunch" because he "read" that the car should go 8000 miles between change intervals and his oil change light was coming on in 1100 miles. Turns out he lives in a northern city. In the winter he started his car outside, drove gently stop light to stoplight for 6 blocks and parked outside. Did the same in the evening. Used a different car for long trips on the weekend. I was surprised the oil lasted for 1100 miles in the winter under those conditions!!! If he was following Click and Clack he would probably have used the 3000 mile change interval and been ruining his engine.

There are many many things that determine "oil life" or define when an oil is used up or worn out. Key parameters involve oil oxidation levels, acidity of the oil, contamination by fuel, contamination by water, contamination by other combustion by products, contamination by dust/dirt, contamination by wear particles, the amount of anti-wear additive left in the oil....... The commonly used anti-wear agent ZDP (or ZDDP) in oil is sacrificial and is used up over time. When depleted to low levels the ZDP is not effective since there is little of it left. An oil could be completely clean of contaminates and have low levels of oxidation but be ineffective due to the ZDP being depleted....typical of an oil in a modern engine at 15,000 miles in long trip driving. Similarily, an oil could be heavily contaminated with high acid levels at 1500 miles.....typical of the customer driving 6 blocks in the city and multiple cold starts in the winter.

That is why it is so hard to predict a change interval for each and every customer as there are many different ways the oil can fail and require changing. And that is why the oil life monitors were developed in the first place. This way each individual customer has a customized change interval computed for them and it is constantly monitored and updated to accurately predict the oil life, maximize the usage of the oil to prevent excessive cost and waste while completely protecting the engine. Without an oil life monitor any "recommended" change interval by any manufacturer must be relatively conservative and thus be much too soon for many customers....while still having the possibility of being not conservative enough for that guy in the city.

This is one more reason GM pursued the computer model oil life monitor vs. using a sensor. The oil life model can predict oil life for the future and modify the scheduled change event as the cycle progresses. That is why it is expressed as "Percent of Oil Life Remaining". This way the customer can react and change the oil in an predictable fashion rather than panicing because a sensor just said the oil turned "bad" due to a capacitance or resistance change.

Hopefully this helps some...... Once again, there could be a text book written on all this so it is hard to cover in one post, even a long one. Sorry for the typos I'm sure are there..... :) :)

 
so, given the info above, would the oil life monitor read differently with conventional vs. synthetic oil?

The oil life monitor would not know whether you put conventional or synthetic oil in the engine so it simply predicts oil life based on the oil recommended for the engine. Each oil life monitor (for GM anyway....) is calibrated and validated for the specific engine in that vehicle. If that vehicle was recommended for synthetic oil (Corvette and some Cadillacs) then the oil life monitor would reflect that, otherwise, it reflects the life of conventional oil.

BUT......

Contrary to popular opinion there is really no reason to believe that the change interval will be different whether you use conventional or synthetic oil. I can just hear the screaming and weeping and gnashing of teeth....... :)

As mentioned in my previous post there are MANY different reasons for changing the oil. The properties of synthetic do not necessarily change many of these.

The fundamental difference between "synthetic" oil and conventional oil is that the synthetics will stand higher temperatures without excessive oxidation. Otherwise, there is little difference in the oils. Both would have similar contamination risk and both have the same anti-wear ZDP additive that would deplete at the same rate.

In an application where the oil runs very hot (over 305 degrees F) then synthetic would have an advantage due to slower oxidation. This would (potentially) allow a longer change interval IF oxidation were the only reason for changing the oil. The "IF" is key. Rarely is oxidation alone the reason for changing the oil.

In day-to-day use of normal passenger vehicles it would extremely rare for oxidation to be the sole reason for changing the oil. The oil would oxidize, sure, but other factors would overshadow it to determine the change interval. Contamination buildup, dirt, dust, acid formation and ZDP depletion would likely require an oil change long before the conventional or synthetic oil would oxidize sufficiently to be the sole governing factor.

On a race track, where the engine is help at high load and high RPM for long periods of times cumulatively the oil is going to run hot and synthetic might be advisable and synthetic would likely "last" longe and allow a longer change interval. If you were continuously towing trailers out of Death Valley in the summer then synthetic oil might allow a longer change interval due to the slower oxidation. So, there is some basis in fact for saying that synthetics allow longer change intervals. Trouble is, the marketiers emphasis this as if it were the only case, when, in fact, it is rarely the case. Read the fine print.

That is why ther is very little difference in the oil life monitor response in vehicles in the field whether they have synthetic oil recommended or not. Generally speaking, to the real customer in the real world, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter whether they are running conventional or synthetic when it comes to determining change intervals.

Another failacy of the synthetic myth and another bubble burst...... :)

Read the Amsoil tripe on their webpages. They repeatedly refer to their oils superiour performance on the Sequence 3E tests and use that as total justification for extended change intervals. Sequence 3E overheats the oil so oxidation becomes the "short pole in the tent" for determining when the oil is used up. That is the point of that test. It is not the only test that determines the oil life and rarely comes into play in the field. But Amsoil acts like it is the sole reason for ever changing the oil. Rubbish.

 
Thanks jestal! I was trying to hold off these other dolts and cretins until you could reply (just kidding folks..I appreciate your replies). Your answer was exactly what I was looking for and I "think" I understand. Unfortunately, after reading the link posted by Scab, I may have thrown off some other alerts by resetting my indicator back to 100% before it told me to change my oil (however it was at the second instance of changing my oil so will be accurate as far as that's concerned).

I went to Delvac in the FJR because you said you use it and now I'll believe the indicator because you said so. And once again, yes, if jestal jumped off a bridge I would too!! :D

Again jestal, thanks for the informative post!

 
I should point out something and/or clearify my earlier comments.

I personally know for a fact that the GM oil life monitor works and is accurate and the only way to really tell when you should be changing your oil.

Beyond that, any comments pertaining to oil life monitors on other manufacturers' vehicles are based entirely on speculation and supposition.

I know that oil life monitors CAN work and positively DO WORK on some vehicles and I naturally assume that other manufacturers do the same sort of development and validation on their systems therefore I assume they work well also. I do not KNOW that however. Purely hear say I would say if I was on the stand.

This comment is the result of some reflection and a PM question about a specific oil life monitor on another brand of vehicle. I just didn't want to mislead anyone that I knew how all oil life monitors work and knew for sure that they are all accurate.

The reflection part of it reminded me that GM has patented many of the techniques and algorithms used in modeling the oil life. Yes, you can patent engine control software. So, technically I would think that other companies are not using the same algorithms that GM uses so naturely they cannot be as accurate or as good....... :D :D :D I still suspect that they work OK, though.

 
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