Resolved!: Screwed up big -- trusted the dealer for the first valve check

[exskibum]

To be clear: it is the relationship of the camshaft to the crankshaft that is referred to as the "cam timing" and is critical. rbentnail makes a good point, but might better have referred to camshaft position and crankshaft position in speculating that the tech probably is getting the cam position markers right, but not the crank, thus mistiming the camshaft to the crankshaft.

Call Cypress.

 

[TomInPA]

But doing that right requires taking off the chain cover, not just the view plug. At least I could never visualize the crankshaft and timing mark well without removing the cover.

 

[Fred W]

Yes. Any time the chain tensioner is going to be slackened you need to remove the chain cover to 1) ensure that the chain doesn't skip a tooth (because it usually will) and 2) to put it back where it belongs after #1..

 

[hppants]

Not zip tying the crank sprocket to the cam chain? Not verifying the crank on TDC before aligning the cams? Not reading the service manual closely to identify EXACTLY which cam sprocket marks need to go where?

(none of which we can prove they did or did not do..... but we know they did at least one .....)

Yeah - I know PRECISELY how it can happen. BTDT.

However we get to the dealer's humility matters not to me. Like the others, I hope somebody convinces them to STOP and just go back to the basics before the throw the wrong part at it and grenade the motor. That's what I did on MikeP's bike. That .... and listened to the advice of an INTERNET FORUM.

Fixed the bike without so much as a scratch. If I can do it, they can to.

 

[redzgrider]

No news today -- was away from communication until after the shop had already closed. Tomorrow will undoubtedly be interesting.

 

[Fred W]

We're all talking about this like it is common knowledge that the timing is hard to maintain on these bikes (or any bikes) when you do any work that slackens the chain. That knowledge certainly was not true here on this forum early on until a bunch of people and shops made the same mistake. So... NOW we know, but as much as we'd like to think it the case, this forum is not the center of the FJR universe, and not every bike shop checks here first before working on an FJR.

Now that OP (red) knows what the deal is, and is armed with some knowledge of how they need to proceed to get out of this service event tail spin, it's pretty likely this will come to a satisfactory conclusion without all the carnage being predicted, or anything worse happening to his pride and joy.

This really is the true power of this forum, and others like it, where we share our collective knowledge and experiences both good and bad about the bike we share. Even though I'm a dyed in the wool pessimist, I hope to hear a good report on the next update.

 

[redzgrider]

Called Mother Yamaha this afternoon. Jenna opened a file for me -- but that's all they can do until Monday. Everyone was out of the office for 'maintenance' of some sort. Took two calls to the dealer to get any information, with the second call to the service manager. He vehemently insists they checked the cams relative to the crank. I suspect he doesn't know what the tech has or hasn't done, but will let them spend their own money for a few more days.

A few.

So there won't be any more information until Monday afternoon, at the earliest.

Still sick to my stomach that I trusted a dealer.

Dangnation I know better!

Idiot!

Freakin' Idiot!

 

[hppants]

I'd venture to guess NO bike shops (certainly not Yamaha dealers) check here before doing anything. But that doesn't change things 1 bit. The bike is running fine when it gets there. They change valve shims. They slacken the cam chain to do that. Now it runs like crap. It's common knowledge to anyone that calls him/herself a mechanic that if you don't time the camshafts to the crankshaft properly, the motor will either run like crap or grenade itself. The fact that they won't go back to the timing FIRST instead of throwing dart parts at it is just stupid. Unless they think that by some kind of miraculous odds, something else (anything else) just happened to rear its ugly head the second they gave the owner the bike back after the valve check and their (supposed test ride) that causes the motor not to idle? If they think that, then they are even more stupid than I thought. Start with the most obvious thing first. It's not like he brought it in for a valve check and now the pumpkin leaks oil.

^^^^^^ THIS would be my main reason for not trusting the dealer and being pissed off that I brought it there. Anyone can make a mistake (DAMHIK). Even experienced mechanics. But covering up the obvious? That's just plain stupid. It will take them 30 minutes to pull the cam cover and prove the owner wrong or (LIKELY) right. They are just being stupid.

Oh, and at least for now... this forum IS ABSOLUTELY the center of the FJR universe. Yamaha just built it. They don't have millions of test miles on their bike. We do.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Exactly Pants. This is the reason most "mechanics" these days are not worth the shoes they're standing in.

Let's see...

Bike ran fine.

I fucked with the shims, which required the removal of the cam.

Now, bike runs like shit.

Ok, what did I touch?

Shims, nope that's not it

Cams, only valid if the cams coming out if time will make it run like shit. Oh...See point #3. Maybe I better recheck my work and look some stuff up.

Naaaaaaaa, **** it. I'll throw some part's at it and call it good.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Most dealership mechanics are nothing but overpaid parts changers.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I suspect that a small percentage of the Yamaha dealerships have techs that are experienced in doing the valves on any inline four engines. I bought the only FJR our local dealership had sold in years and they then promptly went tits up. The remaining dealerships in our region seem to make their way selling dirt bikes, ATVs, side-by-sides and snogos.

 

[hppants]

(one more whack at the dying horse)

It's not the mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. Pants has been changing oil in things since he was 8 years old. Seriously, I tugged on my dad's pants leg to his garage when I was old enough to walk, it seems. When he finally taught me how to hold a wrench, that was it. Since then, I have ALWAYS done my own preventative maintenance on motors even though I can long afford to let someone else do it. I actually enjoy it. And yet we all know that last year, this idiot forgot to torque down his pumpkin drain bolt and it cost me over $600.00.

Everyone makes mistakes. It's the not acknowledging the mistake that would piss me off to no end. If I was the OP owner, and after all this crap and getting to this point now, would I be patient for even 1 more day? Oh baby, you can bet they would hear about it now. They "swear it's not a timing issue" (paraphrasing). Did they state in these exact terms that they actually re-opened the cam cover and timing cover and witnessed with their own eyes that the motor is back in time? I haven't heard that yet.

Shit - at this point, I'd bring a set of tools and a blanket back to the dealer and tear my shit down in their parking lot. Then I'd bring the bastards out to the parking lot and embarrass them in front of customers, God, Country, and anyone else that would listen. I'd have my son videoing the whole thing and ask him to post it on Youtube, Hulu, CNN, facebook, the BBB, the Chamber of Commerce, send it to Mama Yamaha, and every fucking forum known to civilized man (except this one.... wink wink). You fucked with the wrong Marine, bro!

If I told you that "I swear that the moon is made out of cheese", would you believe me?

 

[Klubis]

You'd have to be more specific as to what kind of cheese. Do you think we're stupid?

 

[eflyguy]

The average owner wouldn't put enough miles on a bike to require a valve adjustment, and most of the ones that do are savvy enough to do it themselves - even the OP here. So I'd expect it's not a common job for most dealers. A *private* shop would be different. In fact - I paused until a local (and well-liked) shop opened up so I could ask them. Hard to give an accurate number but he said they typically get one or two a month..

 

[RossKean]

1) I agree that the service department almost certainly screwed up something. The bike was working correctly when it was dropped off but not so much when it was picked up.

2) The single most likely screwup, based upon what they said they did, is messed up valve timing by a tooth.

3) Just because a dozen people (including me) have said that it is a skipped tooth doesn't make it so!

4) Wailing and gnashing of teeth will do nothing but put the dealership on the defensive and won't help you get your bike back any sooner! Same with threats and unsolicited advice from an Internet forum (whether it is right or not).

Perhaps we can confine it to stuff that might have been touched/adjusted/moved or otherwise fucked with as a function of doing a valve check.

Vacuum leak - loose or damaged vacuum line, loose or damaged TBS rubber cap

TBS - thoroughly messed up somewhere along the line

Broken or damaged COP - can happen when removing wires/plugs. OOPS, I just saw that it was a 2012 so no COP but a reasonable chance that a plug wire or boot was damaged.

Screwed up cylinder identification sensor - broken or re-installed wrong

Damaged or just plain bad spark plug

Damaged or bad throttle position sensor - there have been a couple (But not on Gen II, AFAIK)

Damaged or pinched fuel line - I admit this would be worse at higher RPM than at idle

Gummed up air pressure sensor. I had this happen with my '07 but I'm pretty sure it would throw a code. https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php/topic/170314-fault-code-14-gen-ii-solved/

Hopefully, the cam retainer caps were re-installed and re-torqued correctly. If mistaken, it would show up in a post-adjustment clearance confirmation, if they did one.

If they did not do a post-adjustment check, there is a distinct possibility that they used the wrong shims and put the clearance WAAAY off. Can't imagine how bad it would have to be to cause it to run this poorly.

There is also a (much less likely) chance that something has happened that was unrelated to the service that was performed. (i.e. fuel injector etc.) Coincidental failure is unlikely, but still possible.

Probably lots of stuff that I haven't considered. Just trying to make the point that the most likely problem isn't necessarily the only possible problem.

Hoping that the service guys can get correctly diagnose and get you going. Perhaps Yamaha Corporate can/will help. Good luck!

 

[Klubis]

On the other hand, there are so many UJMs out there, that it seems there should be a plethora of dealer hands who are experienced in adjusting bucket and shim valves. Is the job any more difficult on an FJR? I'm asking because I don't know, not to be a smartass.

The last time I pulled cams to adjust valves was in the 70's, on a '63 Alfa Romeo. I put them back in 180 degrees out. Amazingly the engine did not self destruct. Dad diagnosed the problem immediately.

Actually, if all other things were equal, I would prefer hydraulic lifters and not have to worry about valve adjustments. Or at least finger followers with a nut and adjustment screw. But all other things are not equal, so I'm bucket and shim.

This thread has convinced me that I will personally be doing the valve adjustments going forward.

 

[Kelvininin]

Removing the tupperware before visiting a dealer isn't a bad idea and definitely something to consider.

If the stealer's mechanic can't even handle the successful removal of the upper and lower fairings without damage, they have no business digging into an engine.

Even I can strip the upper and lower fairings from my FJR, including the headlight bezel in under 20 min. It's a half a beer job, and that's while trying to keep my 3 year old from accidently dismembering himself in my shop.

These days I do most of my own work, including tire changes.

 

[TomInPA]

There is one other possibility being overlooked, and might as well mention it. If the chain cover was removed, it's possible to pinch the crankshaft position sensor wire. It can cause all kinds of bad behavior on the engine. Just saying, it may actually be timed right, and the problem is something simple.

 

[RossKean]

Also can pinch the O2 sensor wire in the timing cover. That happened to me once when replacing the CCT. Horrible low RPM response and very rich running. Burned a lot of fuel too. Apparently, the engine runs OK with NO O2 sensor but doesn't like it if the O2 sensor is providing the wrong information.

Initial thought was a skipped tooth although we were VERY careful.

 

[Fred W]

Removing the tupperware before visiting a dealer isn't a bad idea and definitely something to consider.

If the stealer's mechanic can't even handle the successful removal of the upper and lower fairings without damage, they have no business digging into an engine.

I took the suggestion to be one to save labor hours, and therefore reduce the cost, of the job at the mechanic's hourly rate.

Do bike shops generally use a flat rate manual for quoting these kind of jobs? If so, then the access time is probably cooked into the flat rate. I honestly don't know the answer because I've always done all of my own work, and I always pay myself w/ bourbon after the job.

 

[eflyguy]

I'd do it for Bourbon also..