jammess
Well-known member
If the TB sync was too far out to adjust at idle with the TB air bleed screws I bet this ***** dealer wouldn't hesitate to adjust the TB stop screws.
Resolved!: Screwed up big -- trusted the dealer for the first valve check
- Thread starter redzgrider
- Start date
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HotRodZilla
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Your timing is off a tooth. You know it, and we know it. They just need to realize it.
TomInPA
Well-known member
I wonder if the dealer could be persuaded to leave the head off for an inspection before closing it up?
I work in a closed area -- no cell phones or electronics -- so just voice mail contact for today. Service writer says his Yamaha tech and other tech (non Yamaha?) have checked everything cold and hot, and the bike is running "to par". Couldn't get to the shop today, but plan to go get it tomorrow. I do not plan to demand a pre-pay ride or explanation or anything else. Really, what would be the point? I don't trust them, and won't be going back for any reason. Just pay, ride it home. If it runs great, then I'll admit they didn't screw it up, just did work that wasn't necessary (pulling cams for loose valves). If it runs like a turd (my anticipation) then I'll fix it myself. More to follow.
Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
I do understand your strategy; however, I recommend that you make it clear that if the bike needs further work, such as you adjusting the timing properly, that you will ask for compensation. Write that on the bill before you pay it so they have a copy and you have a copy. Pay with your credit card so you have a mechanism to withhold payment. And take a lot of pictures of the timing marks before and after you adjust the timing.
hppants
Well-known member
First, can you confirm that you don't have the "cold start syndrome" whereby you (or someone else) starts the bike cold and then shuts it off within 5 seconds. Then the next time you start it, it won't idle until you get the bike up to running temperature?
Assume this is NOT the case, and taking your word that it was running right when you dropped it off, and confirming that there is no CEL on the dash (some incredibly miraculous coincidence of something else), then you have a bike out of time. We all know this like the backs of our hands. It's an honest mistake that is very easy to make - DAMHIK.
Here is what I would do:
1. BEFORE paying the dealer, ask if you can test the bike. If it won't run right, do NOT pay them. Go back and tell them that the bike is out of time. It's an honest mistake that many (MANY) have made. You understand that now you will have to be without the motorcycle that you paid good money to buy and even more money to fix in good faith, but that everyone makes mistakes and you get it. But now in spite of that, they will have to fix this.
2. Tell the dealer that you will authorize them to tear down the bike down to removing the cam cover, but you want to personally WITNESS them doing it. That is, you want to be in the shop when they do it. If you cannot witness the work with your own eyes, then you will NOT pay for any work that you are authorizing. A competent mechanic can get to that point in about 30 minutes - it's a half hour of your time.
3. Tell the dealer that if the bike is discovered in time, then you will gladly pay for the service you owe now, along with any service they perform to tear down the bike again. You will take you poor running bike with you and deal with it elsewhere.
4. Then tell them that however, if the bike is discovered out of time, then:
a. They will make the necessary repairs to put the bike back in time at no cost to you. Whatever cost you owe now will also be forgiven.
b. They will then re-check all valves and give you the clearance numbers in writing. A few "loose" is Bush, and you know it.
c. You will entertain any offers they have regarding consideration for their blatant incompetence BEFORE you contact Yamaha Customer Service and flame them to the 9th degree, followed by another flaming on facebook, google, Mozilla, twitter, and every forum EXCEPT this one because we all know that is against the rules (wink wink).
5. If they refuse your terms, then inform them that you will NOT be picking up your bike today and that you are going home to contact Yamaha Customer Service and initiate a fraudulent claim against them.
I don't see how they can refuse. You are giving them a way out, and just enough rope for them to hang themselves. In the end, if they do what they should do, then everyone wins. You both have nothing to lose.
Good Luck
Assume this is NOT the case, and taking your word that it was running right when you dropped it off, and confirming that there is no CEL on the dash (some incredibly miraculous coincidence of something else), then you have a bike out of time. We all know this like the backs of our hands. It's an honest mistake that is very easy to make - DAMHIK.
Here is what I would do:
1. BEFORE paying the dealer, ask if you can test the bike. If it won't run right, do NOT pay them. Go back and tell them that the bike is out of time. It's an honest mistake that many (MANY) have made. You understand that now you will have to be without the motorcycle that you paid good money to buy and even more money to fix in good faith, but that everyone makes mistakes and you get it. But now in spite of that, they will have to fix this.
2. Tell the dealer that you will authorize them to tear down the bike down to removing the cam cover, but you want to personally WITNESS them doing it. That is, you want to be in the shop when they do it. If you cannot witness the work with your own eyes, then you will NOT pay for any work that you are authorizing. A competent mechanic can get to that point in about 30 minutes - it's a half hour of your time.
3. Tell the dealer that if the bike is discovered in time, then you will gladly pay for the service you owe now, along with any service they perform to tear down the bike again. You will take you poor running bike with you and deal with it elsewhere.
4. Then tell them that however, if the bike is discovered out of time, then:
a. They will make the necessary repairs to put the bike back in time at no cost to you. Whatever cost you owe now will also be forgiven.
b. They will then re-check all valves and give you the clearance numbers in writing. A few "loose" is Bush, and you know it.
c. You will entertain any offers they have regarding consideration for their blatant incompetence BEFORE you contact Yamaha Customer Service and flame them to the 9th degree, followed by another flaming on facebook, google, Mozilla, twitter, and every forum EXCEPT this one because we all know that is against the rules (wink wink).
5. If they refuse your terms, then inform them that you will NOT be picking up your bike today and that you are going home to contact Yamaha Customer Service and initiate a fraudulent claim against them.
I don't see how they can refuse. You are giving them a way out, and just enough rope for them to hang themselves. In the end, if they do what they should do, then everyone wins. You both have nothing to lose.
Good Luck
lnewlf
Well-known member
bet they didn't zip tie the crank sprocket...
You don't see how they could possibly refuse to perform 5 very specific numbered conditions, some with sub-times, that somebody anonymous nick-named hppants posted on the internet? Yeah, right.
While I wouldn't expect they agree to hppants list--he has some good ideas about making sure that you're sure they resolved the issue. But, they're going to automatically go in defensive mode if you go that way out of the gate. I've been around this forum and bikes long enough that going full internet lawyer-commando NEVER gets you what you ultimately want....which is a fully functional FJR with no questions and good feelings in the end.
Going back to post #2, Skooterg (a former Yamaha employee and possibly most miles on FJRs anywhere) is very likely right about a skipped tooth. And I'll add my personal experience since I did exactly that (except I did two or three....or four teeth myself once).
If you really don't trust them to have undone (without doing damage in the process) of unskipping a tooth and don't think they can earn back your trust when you visit next....think about calling Cypress in advance. If your reach the right person at Yamaha Motor Coproration, USA--they sometimes will be an advocate for you with Yamaha dealers that messed something up or are marginal.
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hppants
Well-known member
I can't imagine why the owner would share with the dealer "an internet forum" as a basis for his case. I certainly didn't allude to that.
Regardless, I can't see why the dealer would refuse his request. The ONLY way to prove to the dealer that it was their (the dealer's) mistake is for them (the dealer) to take it apart. If anyone else does it, the dealer would use tampering or other shenanigans to dodge the issue. And by allowing the owner to witness the disassembly, then he (the owner) can be assured that the dealer, whom he already distrust, doesn't fix their screw up without owning up to the mistake, thereby holding the owner accountable for any and all costs. Finally, if the owner is so sure that the dealer screwed up (and he should be), and he is willing to pay for the investigation up to the point where his case is proved, then why would the dealer not accept that?
Mama Yamaha isn't going to refund him any money, or buy him a new bike. The only thing they could do is force the dealer to fix his bike, which is what I think he should try in the first place.
Usual ******** disclaimers apply - Pants is not a lawyer....
Regardless, I can't see why the dealer would refuse his request. The ONLY way to prove to the dealer that it was their (the dealer's) mistake is for them (the dealer) to take it apart. If anyone else does it, the dealer would use tampering or other shenanigans to dodge the issue. And by allowing the owner to witness the disassembly, then he (the owner) can be assured that the dealer, whom he already distrust, doesn't fix their screw up without owning up to the mistake, thereby holding the owner accountable for any and all costs. Finally, if the owner is so sure that the dealer screwed up (and he should be), and he is willing to pay for the investigation up to the point where his case is proved, then why would the dealer not accept that?
Mama Yamaha isn't going to refund him any money, or buy him a new bike. The only thing they could do is force the dealer to fix his bike, which is what I think he should try in the first place.
Usual ******** disclaimers apply - Pants is not a lawyer....
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Well, calmed down a little now. Was fit to spit nails for a while.
It just keeps getting more interesting. I went to the dealer today, expecting to pick the bike up and nurse it home -- but when I got there it was still in pieces. They recognize that it isn't running correctly, with the idle dropping off intermittently, but continue to insist -- vehemently -- that the cams are in time. I even pressed that this assurance was made with #1 at top dead center, anticipating that they just verified the two aligned with each other, but the service writer insists #1 was indeed at TDC. O.K., fine. Service writer thinks they need to throw parts at it, but seems worried I won't pony up for them. He's right -- but I'm under warranty for another 2 years, and say so. He looks surprised, and checks the VIN. Sure enough, the YES is active so they will continue work. I remain un-convinced the cams aren't the issue, but if they want to throw parts at their cost, fine by me.
Just don't be trying to charge me for anything past the clearance check -- I asked to see the clearance map, and not one valve was out of tolerance. NONE. All at the loose end of tolerance, exactly where I would have wanted them to be. So they pulled my cam for no reason.
It just keeps getting more interesting. I went to the dealer today, expecting to pick the bike up and nurse it home -- but when I got there it was still in pieces. They recognize that it isn't running correctly, with the idle dropping off intermittently, but continue to insist -- vehemently -- that the cams are in time. I even pressed that this assurance was made with #1 at top dead center, anticipating that they just verified the two aligned with each other, but the service writer insists #1 was indeed at TDC. O.K., fine. Service writer thinks they need to throw parts at it, but seems worried I won't pony up for them. He's right -- but I'm under warranty for another 2 years, and say so. He looks surprised, and checks the VIN. Sure enough, the YES is active so they will continue work. I remain un-convinced the cams aren't the issue, but if they want to throw parts at their cost, fine by me.
Just don't be trying to charge me for anything past the clearance check -- I asked to see the clearance map, and not one valve was out of tolerance. NONE. All at the loose end of tolerance, exactly where I would have wanted them to be. So they pulled my cam for no reason.
What did they say when you pointed out that they pulled the cams out (and created the problem) for no reason? I wouldn't let these nimrods work on my bike for another second. Who knows what other stuff they will screw up as they replace parts that are actually fine?
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Geezer
Parsimonious Curmudgeon
Do you really want to trust these guys to do any more work on your bike, even if it is covered by warranty?
edit: I see Fred beat me to the comment.
edit: I see Fred beat me to the comment.
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mikerider
Well-known member
Throw parts at what? 
They don't even know what the problem was!
They don't even know what the problem was!
BkerChuck
Second hand vegetarian
Definitely contact Yamaha customer service. Request a field service tech go there to oversee dealership work. Express your concerns that they may have allowed an improperly trained tech to do the work and you no longer have faith in their ability to properly put your bike back to factory specs.
Who or what is Cypress?
Cav47
Adventure Seeker
So, Essentially, they realize it is on them; KInda what Pants was alluding to, just in a much more thought out, well detailed, enumerated process. They just got there on their own. And it is in the process of getting "made right"
Hope it all works out. I sympathize with your predicament.
I once had a Honda Prelude that I bought new go into a similar situation. That dealer made me feel like I was going to have to pay for an engine replacement. I wound up "winning" but it took 7 months and a ton of calls/letters/visits to lots of people at various Honda of America and or the Dealership. I really felt like a hostage to them.
exskibum
~<>~<>~<>~<>~
Yamaha Motor Corporation, USA . . . aka the business entity that will be paying the Y.E.S. warranty cost (parts and labor) to "throw parts at" your bike until it runs properly again. At a minimum, they have an interest in minimizing that cost before these clowns get your camshaft another tooth further out of time and grenade the engine.
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NOT the cam timing. You keep saying "cam timing". Ask SPECIFICALLY if the crankshaft timing is correct. Many of us here know and have freely expressed:
The cam timing can be right and the crank timing off just one single tooth and the bike will behave exactly as you describe. ONE TOOTH IS ALL IT TAKES!!!!!!!! There's no play or slop in this, it must be exactly right.
You need to make sure they actually bend down and look straight at the CRANKSHAFT timing marks in addition to the cam shaft sprockets.
The cam timing can be right and the crank timing off just one single tooth and the bike will behave exactly as you describe. ONE TOOTH IS ALL IT TAKES!!!!!!!! There's no play or slop in this, it must be exactly right.
You need to make sure they actually bend down and look straight at the CRANKSHAFT timing marks in addition to the cam shaft sprockets.
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