Rider Self Ratings?

[quicksilver]

To make things easier on the next go around, how about trying to group up based on skill level? Each rider decide where they belong and try to group up accordingly.

Like:

Group 1 - Rookie (lowest 20% of experience)

Less than 4K miles ridden w/in past year

or anyone that has no desire to ever scrape.

Group 2 - Novice (just below average in experience)

Understands and has experienced target fixation,

but still consciously working on riding form to prevent it.

Might still occationally get drawn out of personal safety zone

in a faster group. (be honest)

Group 3 - Advanced (just above average in experience)

Can't count number of ST group rides you've been on.

Very familiar with the Pace.

Can and will take the lead without much thought.

Group 4 - Expert (highest 20% of experience)

Usually find yourself far in front.

Have owned several performance bikes.

Very confident in your ride, experience and skill.

This group should not include 2-up.

With a division like this, each rider could ride up or down in group level and still have fun. But, Group 1 would not find themselves in Group 4 and vice-versa.

Most riders would be 2 or 3, but would be aware of group 1 or 4 riders.

Color coded name tags for a major group event like the EOM?

blue - green - yellow - red seems logical.

Just a thought.

Got a better idea?

 

[Bike Effects]

Group 4 - Expert (highest 20% of experience)Usually find yourself far in front.

Have owned several performance bikes.

Very confident in your ride, experience and skill.

This group should not include 2-up.

I might have agreed to most of this, but I have a comment about Group 4. I feel that I would be in this group (at least I hope that I am!) and recently rode behind Highlander from this board. Dave was two up with Diane on the back of his FJR and I followed them for good number of miles on the Yosemite ride. He could hold his own with any sane rider on an FJR and a lot of riders on pure Sport Bikes. The two up comment would not apply here IMHO.

 

[slapnpop]

After riding with me for a day, where would you rate me in this classification?

There might be a bit of a gap to jump between

still consciously working on riding form

and

Can and will take the lead without much thought.

I don't feel the need to ride in the front, and I usually ride at a much more moderate pace than my full potential speed wise.

Maybe there should be a more 2-dimensional aspect to the rating. A simple point on a chart of expereince level and riding pace. I don't think the hard groups will encompass everyone, and lump people together that might not enjoy each other's riding habits as much. You need someone experienced enough to lead, and in my opinion, tail, a group of riders. These experienced riders ride at all paces, and if you're grouping on experience level, I think you'll get the most mis-matched and least fun rides in the group 1. You'd likely end up with realy slow newbies, fast paced squidlies, and sane newcomes in the same ride, stringing riders out.

If you could group more by pace level I think you'd have more "control." Make sure enough experience riders are in groups with riders who need good examples to learn from, but can still keep a pace that the experienced riders are happy with. Everyone should be happy at the speed they are riding at.

With a seperate rating for each, I might consider myself a 3 or 4 on experience, but a 2-3 on pace. I've done lots of group and pack riding, but I don't like going flat out. By the same token I don't like puttering along and watching the scenery, I'm out there to ride. I don't mind leading group rides, but only on roads I'm familiar with, and not when I've got riders behind me wanting to go faster.

These of course are just my ramblings and thoughts. I'm by no means knocking your suggestion, but just adding my $0.02. If I were charging by the hour, it'd be a little more exspensive, but hey, I'm in a dealing mood!

 

[radman]

Who would decide which group an individual falls into? While it's an interesting plan, I'm afraid it would be unworkable beyond the theoretical. Problematical in that the group may want someone where one would not think they belonged, and the argument begins. It takes but one to destroy a good plan..... (Cuz here I am already arguing with ya )

 

[grmrpr]

I agree with slapnpop, let people ride with the ones they enjoy being with, and if he pace is too fast or too slow for them, then break off and find another group. Each individuale can find his/her place in any group and ride their own pace. "If someone wants to go faster let 'em pass, if they want to ride slower pass 'em," and you can still link up and the rest areas and enjoy being with each other.

My .02 - John

 

[Leonard Lloyd]

From what I have observed, years of experience does not always translate into rapid pace and taking the lead, especially as the years and years of experience add up. How to add into the formula pace preferences. The older I get, the more I treasure every yard of the trip, every glimpse of the world about, the aromas and temperature changes ...

YMMV,

Leonard

 

[Skippy]

2 groups, sport and touring pace, you pick based on what you want to get out of the ride.

Sport will be dragging pegs in the corners, touring will be a little more leisurely

Macho BS will always get in the way here, and people will predominantly ride over thier heads and get into trouble.

Been riding in groups for years with www.floribamariders.com

They have some interesting thoughts on group rides on their site.

I have seen folks go down regardless of what group/skill level they are in because of target fixating on the person in front or vehicle coming the other way.

Whats more important about the group rides is that the rules are set in place at a riders meeting before you leave out.

Hand signals or radio communications, who is sweeping and how they will tell the lead that all riders are clear of an obstacle (read slower vehicle)

Waiting in a safe place at intersections for all to catch up, and how riders are responsible for how they overtake vehiceles or other obstacles and then blend back in without backing off too quick.

Spacing between riders, staggered lines or not, these are more important than the "pace" as that seems to be the variable, what I see as quick, others may see as slow.

There is always a certain amount of "peer" pressure when going on group rides, and this has to be addressed and stressed at the beginning of the ride as much as is humanly possible, to not ride over your head and to just enjoy the ride.

 

[RTSR1/FJR]

I find most people have an inflated view of the their own riding abilities, so how would you go about rating people? On their word? I know not everyone pretends to be a Rossi, but like stated before, people who have ridden for years are not necessarily the best either! Some think they are though, and <4000 miles a year doesn't mean a thing. I for one, ride my own ride and don't feel the need to prove myself to anyone but me. If you want to lead. go right ahead. I'll see you at the end or next stop, maybe. I only ride with a small core of friends that I know can ride without being a danger to everyone. Makes riding enjoyable for me. If you think it's bad with a group of Sport Touring guys, try riding with a group of Sportbikes! Egos abound, wheelies start, and the competitive racing on public roads are at every corner! If no one gets hurt, at a minimum, cops are on your ass. I take the R1 to the track when I need a speed fix! Otherwise, it's just a leisurely ride, either on the FJR or the R1 for me. Truely can't judge ones ability by observation or word.

 

[wpbfjr]

first, thanks for the mention with the reference of 'target fixiation'... lol...

second, what i like about a mixed group is the chance to learn from other riders about style, technique, skills... lump people in a certian group, how do they improve?

the above question becomes rehtoricial if an experienced rider offers a skills clinic as part of eom, or any group meeting...

dana

 

[smthng]

I've been avoiding this thread a bit to see what people think before tossing my two cents in. Here's what I think would be a good set of groupings...

Snails - We ride slow for whatever reason and we check out the scenery. We may be skilled, we may be newbies... we just toodle around checking out the sights and enjoying the ride.

Spirited - We'll pick up the pace a bit when we can, maybe push the speed limits a hair or two, but we're not going to eat up a set of tires and we're not going to scrape anything intentionally at any time.

Squidly - Other FJR riders think we should be on an R1. We fly until we get caught and aren't afraid of using only one wheel when possible.

Most riders won't "fit" perfectly into any group, but by offering only the three options, everyone will be forced to fit themselves somewhere and will never be more than one "skill level" away from actual. The groups will still be varied enough for people to learn from each other and riders should be able to quickly discern that they should jump up or down a spot if needed.

For those that rode with me, I would consider myself in the upper range of "spirited" or the very bottom of "squidly" (most of the group I rode with most of the time would probably categorize themselves the same way). I'd probably do a day of riding in each bracket if people wanted to tag along.

Of course, I like Dana's idea as well... I'd love to get a "super-squid" to school me a bit and I'd be more than willing to help out the Snails and Spirited riders if I could. Still... we've got a year to figure it out.

Edit: Forgot to mention... I probably fixated five times at the EOM. The only difference between me and Dana on that is that I had enough time to realize and force my brain back into gear before I met something solid... One of them was barely enough time. EVERYONE does it, IMO.

 

[Skippy]

I disagree, the road is not the place to learn or improve your riding skills, sign up for a track day near you, the money and time will be well spent.

Having done track days on my FJ1200 and the FJR, I can attest that they done more for me about knowing what I can and can't do on a road bike than anytime following faster/more experienced riders on the road.

There is absolutely no shame in riding the FJR on a track, in fact, it is quite amusing to have people come up to you afterwards and say how well the bike handles the track.

Now I know it is no sportbike, and I do not try to play with it that way, however, riding in the streebike group you have the chance to brake later in to a turn, (like when you are on the road and a corner comes up quicker than you expected).

You also learn how to go around a corner on a set line, and then change in mid corner if the need arises (like if there is gravel or roadkill).

Trail braking is also learned on the track and is a great way of slowing the bike down in a controlled manner while leaned over in a decreasing radius corner (very useful on the Cherohala Skyway).

There are way too many variables beyond our control, to try and learn techniques on the road, when on the road, we should concentrate on riding defensively and be on alert as though everyone and everything is trying to run into/over us, because inveriably, they are.

Skippy

** It was suggested by my riding buddies on the Dragon that I install knee sliders onto the Side Bags, I did scrape the pegs, highway pegs and the exhaust can**

 

[Patent1]

This thread appears to have two themes running throught it: How do we set up rides for EOM and how to improve our riding skills. For future EOM meets, I like the idea of advertising a specific ride for a specific group of riders (couples vs. squids), and believe riders would self-select into smaller groups during a given ride after a few miles, particularly after a first "rest" stop, which could be scheduled early in the ride after just a few miles. As for rider training, I agree with Skippy that EOM is not the place for it. I would only add that a track school such as Keith Code's Superbike School is probably much better than a track day where (I'm told) you receive little or no riding instruction. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Keith Code, there are several other companies offering similar products, and I haven't yet attended a track school myself, although its on my to-do list!

Jim

 

[Bike Effects]

This thread appears to have two themes running throught it: How do we set up rides for EOM and how to improve our riding skills. For future EOM meets, I like the idea of advertising a specific ride for a specific group of riders (couples vs. squids), and believe riders would self-select into smaller groups during a given ride after a few miles, particularly after a first "rest" stop, which could be scheduled early in the ride after just a few miles. As for rider training, I agree with Skippy that EOM is not the place for it. I would only add that a track school such as Keith Code's Superbike School is probably much better than a track day where (I'm told) you receive little or no riding instruction. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Keith Code, there are several other companies offering similar products, and I haven't yet attended a track school myself, although its on my to-do list!
Jim

Having done both, track days and the Code school, which I did years ago, I have to say that the things that I learned in the Code school has saved my sorry ass too many times to count. There were many valuable lessons for me there.

Of course, the most fun I have ever had with my clothes on were track days on my R1!

 

[drjfjr]

Last year I led several rides and there are a lot of good riders that want to ride a scenic type of pace. There are others that want to push themselves. Maybe experience and pace should be considered as well as back ground. Spirited in Florida is much different then spirited in North Georgia. Unless you have riden with the people before it would be hard to classify where you belong and where you are comfortable. I am comfortable when I don't have to worry about the other rider and that only comes with riding with them for quite a while. Just ride and ride with those you want to be around during these types of meets unless you know them. Enjoy the company and save the pushing yourself to when you are by yourself or with your usual comfortable crew.

 

[luvtoride]

I'm taking the stance that I want to ride with who I want to hang with. I'm not so slow that I'm going to be 2 miles behind & I'm definitely not a fast rider, either (especially since that ticket that I got on my way to EOM).

I've rode with faster paced riders several times before without so much as a "Heidi you were riding to f'in slow."

My problem with the rating system is who is rating the riders? What if you fall in between categories do you choose a lower or higher category?

Also, I don't want a bunch of do's and don'ts from a bunch of riders who may ride in a WAY different style than I'm comfortable with. I'm also not saying that if someone sees me doing something incorrectly that person shouldn't say something because I want to know about it because I am definitely still in the learning curve.

I heard a lot of talk about jamming through roads as fast as possible, jambing on the breaks right b4 a turn & going in hot. That's ok for some people but definitely not how I do/want to ride. I've got a seasoned mentor who I talk to about skills & technique regularly who happens to rides how I want to ride... Smooth and quick.

Of course these are my thoughts & however next year's EOM is structured is fine with me. I tend to fit in & cope most times & this wouldn't be any different.

Heidi

 

[smthng]

I was afraid this can of worms was on the way, but here's another couple of cents on the matter.

Rider Classifications:

In NO WAY should the EOM (or any other informal FJR gathering) become a training arena! If you're squidly and you know it (clap your hands!), you most likely don't want someone who's going to be well beyond thier limits trying to keep up with you. While most people will figure this out on thier own within the first 10 minutes of whoever they are riding with, I think it would be helpful to have a VERY basic classification just for figuring out which group you might want to hang with. Of course, if you meet up with people beforehand and want to run with them, feel free to count yourselves out and take off (which is pretty much what happened with me... most of the folks that showed up a day or two early ended up with me and we had a great time).

I believe that a "classification" of some sort will just help the "loners" who want to come ride, but aren't comfortable just grabbing someone's coat tails and going. This system is for them! Or... new owners who haven't been on the forums and have no idea who is who (there were a LOT of these at the EOM).

If you're happy with your own system, use it. As I said, my group had no real system for getting together. We just ended up together and rode well as a group. Dumb luck? Perhaps. Like minded people? Maybe. Either way, it worked out well.

Training/Learning:

If you really are focused on improving your skills in a major way, track time or a dedicated class are the way to go. You WON'T learn it on the street! But...

How many riders do you know that have had track time? It's a low percentage. That proves that you can ride without formal training and that you can survive. We'll save the pros and cons of track riding for another thread (PLEASE!), but, that doesn't mean you can't learn from other people! There's no way I'm going to dictate to someone what methods or techniques they should use to ride. If anyone tried the same to me, I'd probably tell them to take a flying leap off the top of the Fontana Dam. However, SEVERAL people made a point of coming up to me to say how much they'd learned just from talking to, seeing and riding with others. There is ALWAYS something to learn from your fellow riders. Sometimes you learn what not to do, sometimes you learn a new thing you can do. Most of the time, you'll jut pick up one or two techniques you can add to your arsenal. This applies to any rider who rides at any speed.

For this, meetings like the EOM are fantastic! You've got essentially the same machines with almost every class of rider imaginable. You can see what the machine is capable of, and what kind of skill and effort it takes to get it there. Anyone who's low on the sport riding ladder with a shred of common sense will immediately recognize that someone scraping hardware on the dragon is NOT the person to learn from. But, that couple running two up in front of you who just made a corner with no apparent effort must be doing something different/better than you if you thought you were really pushing it. Watch them and you might figure it. If not, two minutes when you stop for gas or at an overlook might just give you one technique that you hadn't thought of or weren't doing right.

Don't get me wrong. The EOM or any other meet is NOT going to turn anyone into the next Rossi. But, it can very easily give several people one or two more survival techniques with very little effort and no increased risk.

Soapbox mode now off.

PS... I'll be doing some track time AND classes, but I also learned a thing or two from a couple other riders at the EOM. I practice what I preach.

 

[quicksilver]

Wow.

I gonna have to reread to absorb all of these thoughtful posts.

One note though,

I am just looking for a way for everyone to tell everyone else what kind of ride they are interested in.

This would be a SELF rating. Simple as picking a color for yourself.

It is just a one second visual that tells other people what your ideal ride would be.

Nothing any more serious than that. You can ride with whoever you want.

No rules attached.

I have opinions on the learning part, but we can make that a different thread.

 

[FJRocket]

I disagree, the road is not the place to learn or improve your riding skills, sign up for a track day near you, the money and time will be well spent.

Skippy, you are wrong there, buddy. I understand what you mean, but literally every time you ride is an opportunity to learn and hone your skills. Those skills don't have to be how to drag your pegs or let down that wheelie. I try to work on control pretty much everytime I ride. Granted, a track day and rider courses are an excellent way to learn, but you can learn from everyday experiences, too.

I've ridden with some grandma's and I've ridden with some Rossi's (wannabe's). I can learn something (good and bad) by watching both. From a good distance usually. I've ridden behind some professional racers, at my own pace, on the road. Although they weren't really riding "the pace" and it was quite spirited (beyond my comfort level, that's for sure) I WAS able to learn by watching how they worked their machines. They were comfortable at their pace, and I was comfortable at mine. They knew from the beginning that I couldn't and wouldn't keep up because we discussed it before the ride.

I think Quick just wants us to recogonize our own level of riding skill and experience. With that knowledge we can better apply ourselves to different ride groups, or different positions within a group.

I consider myself an intermediate rider. No racing skills, no track days, no experienced rider class. But I've been riding all types of bikes regularly for over 30 years. That doesn't mean all that much, but it might give some insight to my skill level. Which is average, I guess.

At EOM I had an opportunity to take point and set the pace part of the time in our small group. I also laid back and took it easy part of the time. I don't always want to work at the same level, and sometimes want to be at the back watching the scenery.

After a short while everyone seems to sort themselves out. Some go to the front, some to the rear. Some even went and joined up with other groups. It all seemed to work out pretty well on it's own. I think the thing to remember here, as always, is ride your own ride first and foremost.

And if the pace is too fast, too slow, or just too squidly, you make your own adjustments. Believe me, I'm always prepared to just make a clean break and ride by myself if that's what it takes. There are guys that I just refuse to ride with. There are guys I refuse to drive and fly with, too. And perhaps some feel that way about me, too. But one things for sure, I'm going to operate within my comfort zone regardless of what everyone else is doing or how they label me or themselves. Happily seems most folks are a pleasure to ride with and have reasonably good skills. Especially those who ride FJRs!

 

[Geezer]

I was not at EOM this year but I do plan on attending next time, so I'll put my 2 cents in here.

I have never ridden with any of you before and probably won't before the next EOM so I won't have any idea who I would enjoy riding with. Of course from reading your posts there are some folks I look forward to meeting in person, but that's different.

I believe it would be a good idea for a ride leader to indicate in advance the pace he intends for the group so that riders don't find themselves in way over their heads or bored by an unexpectedly slow pace.