wheatonFJR
...
Thanks jestal for the explanation...
Riding away with a cold engine
- Thread starter Constant Mesh
- Start date
Help Support Yamaha FJR Motorcycle Forum:
+2 on this one ... (been doing it for 25 years or so ...)
:blink: ..... followed by this one:
" I make sure I have everything on and the music blaring before I start my engine.
Then I take it out of the driveway and immediately do a 10-20 second burnout to make sure the tire is warm and the bike is hot"
Simply put, I make sure that the oil is warm and circulating before I take it to redline ....
... "driving gently" to warm it up is for people who "drive gently"
..... when I pull out of the parking lot/garage (after she's warm), she goes to redline in every gear - right now (cars, trucks, bikes, lawnmowers, whatever)
(oh, and every bike I've owned has gotten over 30-60,000 miles before sale, with ZERO problems)
... exit somewhat T.I.C. ...
markjenn
Well-known member
I fly light airplanes (a Bonanza) and keep in mind that many of the airplane warmup requirements are based on a number of things that don't apply to our motorcycles:
1. The engine technology on air-cooled GA engines is from the early-cretaceous with magneto ignitions and manual mixture control. They simply won't run at anything over idle unless they're warmed up. Typical engine power levels are 50-75% of full power at cruise compared to 5-15% for a motorcycle. Motorcycles basically cruise around with our engines just off idle for 95% of their lives.
2. Airplane engines are run at full-power for takeoff - there is no opportunity to run them gently for the first few miles.
3. Many airplanes still run straight-weight (rather than multi-vis) oil.
And I never try and bring my airplane engine up to full temperature for takeoff. I look for smooth engine operation and oil temps above a minimum value. After that, I do a runup and go.
- Mark
1. The engine technology on air-cooled GA engines is from the early-cretaceous with magneto ignitions and manual mixture control. They simply won't run at anything over idle unless they're warmed up. Typical engine power levels are 50-75% of full power at cruise compared to 5-15% for a motorcycle. Motorcycles basically cruise around with our engines just off idle for 95% of their lives.
2. Airplane engines are run at full-power for takeoff - there is no opportunity to run them gently for the first few miles.
3. Many airplanes still run straight-weight (rather than multi-vis) oil.
And I never try and bring my airplane engine up to full temperature for takeoff. I look for smooth engine operation and oil temps above a minimum value. After that, I do a runup and go.
- Mark
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I think the need to warm up a light aircraft engine is comparing apples to oranges. Most of those in the fleet (except for the latest model year units) are carbureted with fixed spark advance and run poorly when cold. Warming them up is more to make sure that they respond and develop full power for takeoff (due to the carburetor calibration and primative inlet manifolding, etc.) As stated above, a cough or sag on takeoff would be even more dangerous than a sag or sputter on a carbureted car engine. Besides, with air cooling, the cylinders probably cool off considerably on takeoff and in operation due to the lack of any thermostatic control and the cold ram air flowing over the cylinders so "warming them up" is a bit misleading since they cool right off in operation. Aircraft engines have some unique requirements that make them hard to compare for a lot of things other engines do..... Besides, until the recent introduction of fuel injection, they were/are about the most primative engines on the planet. Very low specific output and built for reliability and redundancy. Not exactly comparible to a high tech modern engine. 300 HP light aircraft engines are 550 cubic inches, still need leaded fuel and cost $25,000 each.....not exactly a model of technology....LOL.
Inlaw1
Well-known member
I'm of the warm up camp, not to get the engine up to temps, but to get the oil closer to it's operating temp. I have a cousin whom always went out, started whatever car she owned and drove off without any kind of warm up. Having grown up in South Texas she didn't think it necessary, except maybe on the coldest day of winter. Her cars always started burning oil early on and would need transmission work if the car had an automatic.
I have some college kids living next door to me now, two of them are brothers and they all start and run their cars the same. Start it up and drive off within 10 seconds or less. They own used cars, none of them more than 5 years old. They all run like crap and burn oil.
I have a '77 Chev stepside with 365,000 on it and it doesn't burn any oil. It's always gotten a warm up. I have a CBR 929 that sees fairly heavy duty use at the track and weekend Hill Country shredding. It's got almost 48K on it and still redlines in 6th and doesn't burn any oil. It gets a warm up.
My warm up isn't until the engine opens it's thermostat, but more like off fast idle and two or three bars showing, driving easy for the first couple of miles.
I do not believe starting an engine and driving off, other than a lawn mower (even it gets some warm up before hitting the high grass), is good for it in the long run.
But then I'm beginning to become an old fart that may be stuck in old school ways. Seems to work though.
I have some college kids living next door to me now, two of them are brothers and they all start and run their cars the same. Start it up and drive off within 10 seconds or less. They own used cars, none of them more than 5 years old. They all run like crap and burn oil.
I have a '77 Chev stepside with 365,000 on it and it doesn't burn any oil. It's always gotten a warm up. I have a CBR 929 that sees fairly heavy duty use at the track and weekend Hill Country shredding. It's got almost 48K on it and still redlines in 6th and doesn't burn any oil. It gets a warm up.
My warm up isn't until the engine opens it's thermostat, but more like off fast idle and two or three bars showing, driving easy for the first couple of miles.
I do not believe starting an engine and driving off, other than a lawn mower (even it gets some warm up before hitting the high grass), is good for it in the long run.
But then I'm beginning to become an old fart that may be stuck in old school ways. Seems to work though.
7xray
Well-known member
+1 on that. Had a guy in our fire district do that and burned his garage down. Fortunately it wasn't attached to his house so it didn't burn down but unfortunately he was remodeling his house and almost all his furniture and appliances were stored in the garage. Bummer. :angry:
mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
My own take on this is my safety and comfort (read: no distractions) are much more important than the bike's longevity. I let the engine idle until it's dropped to its normal idle (same time as one temperature gauge bar comes on). I then feel comfortable going out amongst the rabble on the roads.
I got into this habit with my carburettor-ed previous mount, which could hesitate or splutter if I didn't adjust the manual choke correctly as it warmed up.
As an aside, letting it warm to normal idle also means my electric clutch isn't being slipped at high revs when I start my (often) walking pace commute.
I'll ask the question: Has anyone ever had a problem with their FJR's engine clutch or transmission that can be attributed to cold idling or riding it before it's warmed up?
I got into this habit with my carburettor-ed previous mount, which could hesitate or splutter if I didn't adjust the manual choke correctly as it warmed up.
As an aside, letting it warm to normal idle also means my electric clutch isn't being slipped at high revs when I start my (often) walking pace commute.
I'll ask the question: Has anyone ever had a problem with their FJR's engine clutch or transmission that can be attributed to cold idling or riding it before it's warmed up?
This topic closely parallels religion in that, you can show someone the scientific evidence, explain the reason it is the way that it is, but people who "believe" will continue to "believe". People will either warm up their bikes or not depending on what they believe.
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
To return to the BMW portion of this thread:
I asked some of my beemerphile friends about this and they say it's true. There's actually a NHTSA action number for the many complaints. They also say BMW says you can't (ever?) idle the engines because the plastic oil-level sight-glass will deform and fall out causing even more problems. They all want real glass oil level sight glasses in order to solve this problem -- so that they can let their engines idle.... :blink: :huh:
FJRSTAR
Fuggin' Just Ride the best sport-tourer on the
That just ain't right. I thought Beemers were engineering marvels. The cream of the crop, but nope.
Your Beemer friends are either A) pulling your leg, or 2) grossly exaggerating for your entertainment or c) delusional. No, you can't allow any air cooled engine to idle for 20 minutes without moving unless it has a fan of some sort. That is what happened in the various meltdowns. The knucklehead owners started their bikes and then ran off and got sidetracked on something else. The consequences are pretty obvious if you do. But a few minutes (like at a stop light perhaps) is no big deal.
Boxer owners have known to point a window fan at their heads when doing tuning where the engine must be run for any length of time. The smart ones also kill the engine before they walk away from a running bike even for a minute.
markjenn
Well-known member
Well put. There is a tiny bit of truth in all these BMW myths, but they're usually exaggerated or modified as they're passed around in BMW bashing threads.
All air-cooled motors cannot be run for long periods sitting, so this isn't really BMW thing at all. But what makes the BMW R-bikes particularly susceptible to bone-headed warmup mistakes is that most oilhead BMWs have manual fast-idle levers, cats, and lots of fairing plastic. The guy leaves the fast-idle pulled for 20 minutes while he goes in for a cup of coffee, the cats overheat and get red hot, and the plastic surrounding the exhaust melts and catches on fire. The RT's are the worst because they have the most plastic. The police RT's have an auxiliary cooling fan for the oil cooler. Personally, I'd never buy any air-cooled bike if I thought I was going to sit in traffic in hot weather.
The sight glass problem is like the final drive problem - doesn't happen frequently, but it does happen occasionally and long warmups are a contributing factor as the sight glass rubber gasket gets baked by the radiant heat of an overheated exhaust header. BMW has never said anything about it. Fortunately, its an easy 5-minute fix. Some guys carry a spare.
- Mark
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charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
That may well be -- you know how friends are?
Sounds to me that you've just described a, pretty-much, totally BMW problem? There have been millions of air-cooled motorcyles made and used that don't self-immolate.
Well, that's too bad -- you may miss alot of enjoyable bikes? My S.O.'s air-cooled Yamaha has 63,368 miles (just looked) and has ridden and idled everywhere the FJR has -- and has no obvious problems. Neither has it ever caught itself on fire or had it's oil-level sight-glass fall out!
Reminds me of the 'blame the victim' episode with bikes that had altitude sensing problems..... We were told: "It doesn't happen very often (if, at all?) -- usually happens to the 'other guy' -- and is a rider-caused problem."
Deny...Deny...Deny.
Oh great -- some solution. Reminds me of all the air-head owners who carry spare alternators everywhere. Along with the ubiquitous jumper-cables..... :huh:
Air-cooled engines are a very valid technology -- just ask Deutz AG. Certainly, a reliable 150 hp/liter is readily available -- and, has been for decades. Neither does idle-ing an engine produce undue amounts of heat (if properly designed). It may not be smart for other reasons -- but, excessive heat isn't one of them. Engine heat is produced at full-power, WOT, full-load -- not at idle. There's just not much of a 'fire-in-the-hole' at idle -- just enough to keep it running (some may actually -- run too cool?).
There are valid reasons for liquid cooling everyday-use motorcycle engines -- but, I don't think too much heat (at idle) is one of them.
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v65
ouch
No, I don't unfortunately. I have considered buying his book to see if it was in there. The other sad part is that I am quoting from memory, which is not what it could be.
What I remember is Cameron comparing the effects of warming up versus not. His conclusions were:
1) If you really want to protect the engine, don't start it, that's the worst thing you can do to it.
2) Idling for long periods of time were more damaging than just gently riding off. However, IIRC he did also add that the dumping of extra fuel into the system wasn't really an issue, he was just pointing out that it was theoretically more damaging than running cold bearings.
otrfjr
Don't tell Mom
I just knew that Bike Week was a conspiracy on the part manufacturers: they probably have the city reset the timing of the traffic lights to maximize idling and minimize engine life. The bastards!!!!!!
I just had the first service done on my 08. One of my complaints was the "high idle clunk" mentioned earlier in the thread. Of note, I also complained about clutch disengagement when first starting out....it holds for about a second after pullin the clutch in. Not a good feeling. In response to the clutch issue, the dealer put the following in writing on my service sheet...."LET THE BIKE WARM UP AT LEAST 10 MINUTES BEFORE RIDING." I will wait for the high idle to drop and leave it at that.
mcatrophy
Privileged to ride a 2018 FJR1300AS
Guess your dealer doesn't want to do the clutch plate oil soak it obviously wants. (Find some links here.)
PS. I let my bike warm up to 1 bar, then its idle speed is normal. This is simply to avoid the higher clutch engagement speed of the YCC-S, I find the high revs embarrassing :blushing: . Otherwise I would ride it straight after starting.
Really... you're gonna have to explain that one.
So why else would you water cool an engine besides too much heat (at idle or not).
Seems like the only reason to me...
DailyCommuter
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
I tend to put my pants on left leg first. I like ketchup not mustard. I wave with my left and scratch with my right. I will never own a beemer. Fjr's rule! If you want to start a warm bike, turn up the heat in your garage!
charismaticmegafauna
Well-known member
Mainly, for an even and constant temperature -- done relatively simply. That also can be done with air-cooling -- but, finning, shrouding, and fans become an issue. Air-cooling has been around for 100 years and works just fine.
As to idle speed heat -- there just isn't much, to speak of. Engines make heat at full load, full power, full throttle -- going up hills, for instance. At idle -- not much heat is generated in the combustion chamber -- relatively speaking.
Nowadays, water cooling (aside from the previously mentioned space-saving) is almost necessary in order to meet EPA noise emissions.
In the FJR, liquid cooling actually helps warm the oil sooner -- which can lead to longer engine life. Liquid cooling then helps keep oil temp at (or near) coolant temperature.
It's all part of a more sophisticated (more complicated/costlier) engine design -- '21st century', if you will.
Ultimately -- they're all air-cooled.......
