Rough Idle, Power issues, Fuel etc.

[dcarver]

Dirty/wet/corroded ECU connector. Guaranteed or you owe me money! :blink:

Let's not forget the problem started during/after the wet session...

perhaps a correlation?

 

[RossKean]

Correct, you cannot check the cam timing without removing the cam cover. It's really not that big of a deal. And if it is off, you need to remove the cam cover to fix it anyway.

I know you said the symptoms started before you replaced the CCT. It is possible, in my mind, for similar symptoms to be caused by two separate things. I may be wrong about it being cam timing. But like I said, I also changed out my CCT and I was totally convinced I could not have had the timing chain slip because I was very careful to tightly zip tie the front and rear runs of the chain together, but evidently that wasn't enough.

I'm also not saying you couldn't have an electrical issue, I like the suggestion someone else gave to check all the spiders (and other connectors too) to see if water got in there and caused a problem.

Good luck.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will either check the timing myself or get someone to do it for me - depends on how soon the dealer can fit me in. They might also be able to look at possible ignition issues as well - I don't have the equipment to do it right.

I'm always suspicious if it requires two different simultaneous faults to explain a failure. i.e. ignition before and cam chain timing after the CCT. I guess lightening can strike twice in the same spot?

Ross

 

[RossKean]

Dirty/wet/corroded ECU connector. Guaranteed or you owe me money! :blink:

Let's not forget the problem started during/after the wet session...

perhaps a correlation?

I did wiggle the ECU connecter a bit when I checked the air filter. Didn't pull the plug out. Its easy enough to get at so maybe I'll try it before I decide to leave it parked downtown overnight with the key in the ignition.

Ross

Edit: If its that simple, I'll buy all the beer you can drink if you show up at next year's NERDS - well maybe just one night's worth.

 

[olsonm3915]

I'm always suspicious if it requires two different simultaneous faults to explain a failure. i.e. ignition before and cam chain timing after the CCT. I guess lightening can strike twice in the same spot?

Yes, I am also not a fan of coincidence. Pretty unlikely to be two faults at the same time. But you did change out the CCT without checking the timing afterward. Not that you should have to, but if I remember correctly there was at least one other guy on the forum besides me who had this exact same thing happen to him during a CCT swap and he didn't think it could have skipped a tooth either, but it did.

It's quite easy to remove the ECU connector to check for water ingress- just don't break off the retaining clip off like the dumb **** 'mechanic' did at Heinen's Yamaha in Osseo MN. I'd be surprised if any water was in there, it is a nice gasketed weatherproof connector, but who knows, I would definitely check it again.

 

[WBill]

Sounds like mine did after a skipped-tooth CCT swap. Shop checked the timing, and fixed it with a little red face grin.

She still runs a little rough, more vibes and all, so I'm now wondering if there was incomplete combustion residue after a thousand miles or so out of time. Been running Chevron to clean things up with no qualitative change. Mebbe time for a TB sync. WBill

 

[dcarver]

Only cyl2 is running cool... If it was valve timing all would be off..

..and if exhaust cam is one tooth forward the bike would run hot too..

 

[RossKean]

Only cyl2 is running cool... If it was valve timing all would be off..

..and if exhaust cam is one tooth forward the bike would run hot too..

As per my edited original post, the off temperature in #2 could not be confirmed. My measurements had #3 slightly cooler but only by 20 °C or so. I think the dealer made a mistake with his reading.

 

[RossKean]

Check the cam timing,..

I have never been this far into an engine before. I'm not totally incompetent but I am a little concerned that I will mess things up somehow. I trust my skills a little more than the local dealer so I might have a go at it. Valve clearances are way overdue so I might dive into it anyway. Do you have a rough idea how long it might take? (I'll use your estimate and then double it!) I might be able to get shims from the dealer but I seriously doubt he will have any other parts in stock. Anything else needed other than replacement o-rings for the coolant pipe (and valve shims if req'd)? I have a spare gasket for the side cover if that one gets damaged.

Wish there was someone around here with a little experience to give me a hand!

Ross

 

[Bungie]

I trust my skills a little more than the local dealer so I might have a go at it. Valve clearances are way overdue so I might dive into it anyway.

Ross, stop f'n adding variables!

It's bad enough you did the CCT while the engine was in a borked state. Get the engine running right, then do your stuff.

My suggestion. Check your ECU connector throughly (hey its easy). If all is good, check your valve timing. Eliminate the CCT change. Your and your mechanics job is eliminate possibilities, not add to them. The more **** you 'check' the greater the chances that somebody is gonna add to the problems you face.

 

[dcarver]

1. Spark - checked by using Diag but not observed

2. Fuel - checked by using Diag

3. Compression? Has that been checked?

Keep it Simple, check ez stuff first - very easy to overcomplicate. Use the stereo method, you have lots of cylinders!

Is #2 still running cool?s

ps if this turns out to be nothing more than a bit of water in the gas, I'm going to Frogg Togg you!

 

[RossKean]

I trust my skills a little more than the local dealer so I might have a go at it. Valve clearances are way overdue so I might dive into it anyway.

Ross, stop f'n adding variables!

It's bad enough you did the CCT while the engine was in a borked state. Get the engine running right, then do your stuff.

My suggestion. Check your ECU connector throughly (hey its easy). If all is good, check your valve timing. Eliminate the CCT change. Your and your mechanics job is eliminate possibilities, not add to them. The more **** you 'check' the greater the chances that somebody is gonna add to the problems you face.

Yeah, I know. I have checked everything I can without being a little more invasive (other than the ECU connector). I'll do that. If its a valve timing issue, there's nothing that will make it run right until that's fixed. There could be other issues but they would be very difficult to check if the timing is off. Don't see how it could be but have decided that it has to be verified. Not a total loss since the valve check is required anyway.

 

[RossKean]

1. Spark - checked by using Diag but not observed

2. Fuel - checked by using Diag

3. Compression? Has that been checked?

Keep it Simple, check ez stuff first - very easy to overcomplicate. Use the stereo method, you have lots of cylinders!

Is #2 still running cool?s

ps if this turns out to be nothing more than a bit of water in the gas, I'm going to Frogg Togg you!

Checked everything I could via "diag". An ignition analyzer would go a long way toward verifying spark etc. As per my previous comments, #2 does not appear to be running differently from 1 and 4. #3 was slightly cooler (but not "cold").

Maybe it was "bad gas" for the initial problem. Possible, but a lot of stuff tends to get blamed on this without proof. I guess if the issue is cam timing, I will assume bad gas or a soaked ignition for the first problem and an error on the CCT change for the current issue.

I have not had compression and leakdown checked. Unlikely to have gone bad suddenly but...

 

[RossKean]

It's going under the wrench this afternoon. Figure by this time tomorrow, it will be fixed or fooked. I printed out the section on valve checks from FJRTech and bookmarked the relavent places in the FSM.

Couple of questions:

1) Other than three o-rings (2 coolant pipe plus thermostat) and possibly a gasket for the side cover, will I need any other parts? (Shims, of course, if needed)

2) Are the directions in FJRTech identical for Gen II? Other than plastic, are there enough differences to alter the procedure?

Ross

 

[olsonm3915]

There was no reason to do anything with the thermostat that I could see, when I took off my cam cover to check the valves. I think you're good with the O-rings and the side cover gasket. If you want to save a little money next time, there are O-rings available at Home Depot (Click Here) that are supposed to be the correct size, and the gasket is pretty easy to fabricate out of generic gasket material using the cover (or your new, never-installed gasket) as a pattern.

 

[Queensland Ken]

Hi,

A mate in our FJR Aussie Forum changed out his CCT and cam chain.

Exactly the same problem, he took every thing apart again and was 1 tooth out on his cams.

When I did my CCT, ever so careful, the cam chain "whipped" and the CCT hyper tensioned the chain, causing all sorts of noise.

I thought I had skipped a tooth or two, lucky that I didn't.

 

[RossKean]

OK, a few more hours into it. Pulled off the plastic and the valve cover. As far as I can tell, the cam sprockets line up the way they should with the lower timing mark lined up with the casting line. Hard to see the marks on the cam sprockets because of the frame but I am pretty sure its right. Even with a mirror and LED flashlight, its tough to see! The holes on the cam line up with the arrow as as well. Is it pretty obvious if its off by one tooth?

 

(Yamafitter - The California canister is much easier to manage if you leave it attached to the right side of the fairing and disconnect the hoses - for future reference!)

Did a valve clearance check. Everything meets specification although three of the intake valves are right at 0.15 mm. There is a specification RANGE and I'm sure there is a little engineering wiggle room in there so I decided to just leave it despite the fact that these were at the lowest end of the acceptable range. If anything had been below spec, I would probably have changed anything less than 0.17 or so. May just have to do it again at the regular interval rather than waiting 50,000 miles like I did this time. Didn't have a chance to get it put back together but there is no reason to believe there will be an improvement since I didn't really do anything.

Took the spark plug caps apart. I even checked the resistors with an ohmmeter - all within 10% of each other. At least none was open. I pulled the wires out while I had the caps apart and there is no evident corrosion. Do these screw back onto the wires or just push on? Haven't checked the manual yet, if they even say. EDIT: Checked the manual and couldn't find anything...

Its going back together tomorrow morning. Anything else I should check while I'm in there? As per dcarver's suggestion, I will check the condition of the ECU connector plug.

I guess I need to check spark although there is not a large temperature difference between cylinders as I would expect with one of two coils not working properly. May have to get this done at a Dealer who has a proper ignition analyzer.

Compression and leakdown? Would this show the symptoms I have? Could this come about suddenly?

Someone suggested an issue with fuel pressure. I'm not sure whether this would manifest itself in poor performance at low RPM and adequate performance (although thirsty) at higher RPM???

WHAT ELSE??

 

[Pepperell]

When I changed my cct I managed to pinch the crank position sensor cable between the cover and the block. Symtoms were bike start from cold runs good at high idle for 10 seconds, ten rough idle. Rev higher than normal to launch, erratic at steady state speed, ran strong under acceleration. If that cover is off anyway, I would look real close at the connections and position and condition of the crank sensor. Long shot, worth a look?

 

[RossKean]

When I changed my cct I managed to pinch the crank position sensor cable between the cover and the block. Symtoms were bike start from cold runs good at high idle for 10 seconds, ten rough idle. Rev higher than normal to launch, erratic at steady state speed, ran strong under acceleration. If that cover is off anyway, I would look real close at the connections and position and condition of the crank sensor. Long shot, worth a look?

Have a look at my post on a possibly shorted oxygen sensor. The wire was significantly pinched when the crank cover was put back on the last time. The white wire was crushed to the point that I think it was shorting to the chassis (insulation split). It might not be the answer but it is the only thing I have found after many hours of work on the bike. I got the engine back together after tearing the top off to check that the cam sprocket had not skipped a tooth when we did the CCT. Engine runs but I didn't run it long enough to determine whether it made a difference or not. I'll get the plastic back on it tomorrow and run it until its fully warmed up. Hurricane Irene may prevent much of a test ride for a couple of days.

Ross

 

[RPrice]

Ross,

After reading all about this, I'm waiting anxiously to see if you discovered the problem. That "little" Hurricane shouldn't delay your test ride, should it???

Hope everything goes good, and the weather doesn't cause too much trouble.

 

[Fred W]

When I changed my cct I managed to pinch the crank position sensor cable between the cover and the block. Symtoms were bike start from cold runs good at high idle for 10 seconds, ten rough idle. Rev higher than normal to launch, erratic at steady state speed, ran strong under acceleration. If that cover is off anyway, I would look real close at the connections and position and condition of the crank sensor. Long shot, worth a look?

Have a look at my post on a possibly shorted oxygen sensor. The wire was significantly pinched when the crank cover was put back on the last time. The white wire was crushed to the point that I think it was shorting to the chassis (insulation split). It might not be the answer but it is the only thing I have found after many hours of work on the bike. I got the engine back together after tearing the top off to check that the cam sprocket had not skipped a tooth when we did the CCT. Engine runs but I didn't run it long enough to determine whether it made a difference or not. I'll get the plastic back on it tomorrow and run it until its fully warmed up. Hurricane Irene may prevent much of a test ride for a couple of days.

Ross

After reading through all of the updates, this sure sounds like a smoking gun to me.

But if that doesn't pan out, based just on ionbeam's prior suggestions/comments it might be worthwhile to check to be sure that the cold start enricheners on the throttle bodies are not getting stuck. These are the little piston like dealios in the front of each throttle body that are linked together with a linkage, driven by a wax motor actuator. If that got stuck "on" it might create your symptoms.