Shifting the AE

[bikerkash]

I've had an 06 & 08 AE and like most rider have found some tricks to make things work smoother and want to pass on one I have not read yet. I have found that when I come to a stop I would normally down shift though the gears and be in 1st gear when I actually come to a full stop and the motor is still pulling against the brakes as your making a full stop and will keep pulling until the clutch disengages and at the same time the front end is diving. This is not a smooth action and takes some of your attention away from coming to a smooth stop. I've found two things that I think resolve this. First, do not down shift any futher than 3rd gear until you have came to a complete stop or very close to a complete stop. Second, as normal use both brakes to reduce your speed as you would normally do but once you have down shifted to 3rd and have your speed under control use your rear brake only this will minimize the dive of the front end, you will be able to tell when the clutch disengages and at this time you can make your down shifts to 1st or 2nd if you choose without the motor pulling against the clutch or just wait until you come to a nice smooth stop. I find things work much smoother when I do this hope it helps other AE owners.

 

[palerider]

I've had an 06 & 08 AE and like most rider have found some tricks to make things work smoother and want to pass on one I have not read yet. I have found that when I come to a stop I would normally down shift though the gears and be in 1st gear when I actually come to a full stop and the motor is still pulling against the brakes as your making a full stop and will keep pulling until the clutch disengages and at the same time the front end is diving. This is not a smooth action and takes some of your attention away from coming to a smooth stop. I've found two things that I think resolve this. First, do not down shift any futher than 3rd gear until you have came to a complete stop or very close to a complete stop. Second, as normal use both brakes to reduce your speed as you would normally do but once you have down shifted to 3rd and have your speed under control use your rear brake only this will minimize the dive of the front end, you will be able to tell when the clutch disengages and at this time you can make your down shifts to 1st or 2nd if you choose without the motor pulling against the clutch or just wait until you come to a nice smooth stop. I find things work much smoother when I do this hope it helps other AE owners.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try that.

Do you notice any differences between the 06 and 08?

 

[Constant Mesh]

It's not good for the transmission and the shift mechanism to downshift after the bike has come to a stop.

 

[wfooshee]

An exception being first from neutral. Clutch released in neutral spins the input shaft, and with it the dogs for first gear. I don't know about the AE, though, if you go all the way down to neutral, does it release the clutch to keep the input spinning?

But yeah, stopping in gear will stop all the tranny action, and shifting at that point is like shifting on the showroom floor without the engine running: Dogs might find an engagement, they might not. Big difference from the synchro tranny in your cage.

 

[Constant Mesh]

The AE needs one more pushbutton -- the express-to-1st PB.

As you're coming to a stop you'd hit the express PB and the system would automatically shift down through the gears at the the system's optimum pace and you'd be in 1st when you came to a halt.

Nothing exciting about shifting down through the gears. Hand it off to the system.

 

[El Toro]

The AE needs one more pushbutton -- the express-to-1st PB.

Royal Enfield offered this as a standard feature of their transmissions back in the day. It was the "neutral finder." You could forget about down shifting to the stop, kick the neutral finder, and the bike would be in neutral and ready to follow its normal shift pattern.

It never really caught on, at least in the US. My 1970 Interceptor Series II has it. There's at least one other guy on this forum who has an Interceptor, so he's got to be familiar with it too.

 

[palerider]

The AE needs one more pushbutton -- the express-to-1st PB.
As you're coming to a stop you'd hit the express PB and the system would automatically shift down through the gears at the the system's optimum pace and you'd be in 1st when you came to a halt.

Nothing exciting about shifting down through the gears. Hand it off to the system.

+1

 

[Brodie]

Actually, I found that by backing off early - anticipating the traffic lights - and using engine braking, I find myself stopping less and rolling through newly green lights in second or third gear. Can't get much smoother than this. Also helps on the brake lining and rotors too. I still have plenty of brake pad left after 40 thousand miles.

YMMV

'Express-to-1st' push buttons, self canceling turn signals, and electric can openers seem to me to be solutions looking for a problem. :derisive:

Brodie

 

[NightShine]

The AE needs one more pushbutton -- the express-to-1st PB.
As you're coming to a stop you'd hit the express PB and the system would automatically shift down through the gears at the the system's optimum pace and you'd be in 1st when you came to a halt.

Nothing exciting about shifting down through the gears. Hand it off to the system.

Can you imagine the excitement should you be cruising along at FJR highway speed and happened to hit that button by mistake? :lol:

 

[skifrik]

I drive my AE pretty much the same way. But, I will say this, since I tightened up the suspension a litle bit, front nose dive is almost completely gone, and it's not that firm over bumps. My settings are 2-8-8 and 6 at the rear.

 

[dbx]

The AE needs one more pushbutton -- the express-to-1st PB.
As you're coming to a stop you'd hit the express PB and the system would automatically shift down through the gears at the the system's optimum pace and you'd be in 1st when you came to a halt.

Nothing exciting about shifting down through the gears. Hand it off to the system.

Can you imagine the excitement should you be cruising along at FJR highway speed and happened to hit that button by mistake? :lol:

I imagine nothing would happen. The computer would recognize that you're cruising at highway speed and ignore your request to go to 1st gear.

dbx

 

[bikerkash]

It seems like the 06 & 08 pretty much function the same. I can tell no difference in the shifting of the auto clutch. As far as the post that talked about it not being good for the bike to be down shifted after you've stopped I suggest you just make the last shifts after you feel the auto clutch disengage and before you come to a full stop. This is only the 3rd year for the auto clutch system so I feel it is money well spent to get the Y.E.S. warrenty, it's not that expensive. They say the ABS has been improved but I do not know that as I've never gotten into the ABS on either the 06 or 08.

 

[Wee Willy]

I imagine nothing would happen. The computer would recognize that you're cruising at highway speed and ignore your request to go to 1st gear.
dbx

So these logic functions are called "interlocks" and they will get in the way when you least want them to. I design control laws for fighter planes so believe me when I say that this kind of "cleverness" sometimes kills airplanes, and pilots too. It will potentially do the same for MC riders and/or their equipment. The engineers who develop these strategies can never think through all the things we'll do with their designs. And it's only after a few folks have had some pretty hairy experiences, some of which may be final for rider or machine, that the real consequences of incorporating this kind of stuff becomes known. In competent control law designer circles, the KISS rule is one that we rarely break without very good reason.

It's hard to beat a manual system for bike gear shifting. The AE tries and probably does a reasonable job of geting close to a manual in level of control and ease of use or we'd hear more complaining from its users.

Some random thoughts.

W2

 

[Bellerophon]

Hmmmmn, I'm not sure I get what all the fuss is about. I blip the throttle on downshift, just as I would with a manual clutch, it's nice and smooth and controled.

If you have a lot of front end dive as you stop you need to adjust your suspension.

And yes if you read your manual you will note that the bikes CPU will not let you downshift beyond the rev range.

 

[FJRBluesman]

OK, I guess I need to do this here too.

 

[tripletango]

I've had an 06 & 08 AE and like most rider have found some tricks to make things work smoother and want to pass on one I have not read yet. I have found that when I come to a stop I would normally down shift though the gears and be in 1st gear when I actually come to a full stop and the motor is still pulling against the brakes as your making a full stop and will keep pulling until the clutch disengages and at the same time the front end is diving. This is not a smooth action and takes some of your attention away from coming to a smooth stop. I've found two things that I think resolve this. First, do not down shift any futher than 3rd gear until you have came to a complete stop or very close to a complete stop. Second, as normal use both brakes to reduce your speed as you would normally do but once you have down shifted to 3rd and have your speed under control use your rear brake only this will minimize the dive of the front end, you will be able to tell when the clutch disengages and at this time you can make your down shifts to 1st or 2nd if you choose without the motor pulling against the clutch or just wait until you come to a nice smooth stop. I find things work much smoother when I do this hope it helps other AE owners.

Thanks for the tip. I'll try that.

Do you notice any differences between the 06 and 08?

The 09 has a new shift program loaded that is supposed to make it "better"
For 2009, the FRJ1300AE receives new mapping for YCC-S which aids with improved response while downshifting from neutral.

 

[tripletango]

OK, I guess I need to do this here too.

Only guys and girls that can actually think and analyses the differences in riding styles between the 3 different transmissions now available on bikes these days and use them all effectively can front up and ride a bike like the AE. Losers I don't think so.

The AE is designed for a specific riding style and the people that enjoy the freedom it gives them.

The AE is in no way a bike for beginners.

That would be a 250cc scooter and then maybe a 250 cc cruiser. Then step up through the power ranges to the FJR

 

[Wee Willy]

For 2009, the FRJ1300AE receives new mapping for YCC-S which aids with improved response while downshifting from neutral.

And this underscores the point I tried to make earlier. There will always be attempts by the designers of these systems to make the auto system "better" which really means it tries to automatically emulate the manual system, only faster. They won't get it close to right the first few years. There will ALWAYS be those niggling little problems that riders/drivers complain about and desire to be designed out. The designers will listen (if I were a designer for Yamaha, I would monitor this site) and try to make it "better." But constrained by money and time and, more importantly, the existing design and whatever warts it brings to the table, they will only be able to take it so far. As time goes by, they will approach the capability of the manuals, but rarely ever achieve it with a production bike class. Remember that these bikes we ride are commodities, like tooth paste & automobile tires. The manufacturers don't have the luxury of pouring many $$$ into solving this problem.

The other side of this coin belongs to those rare groups that CAN spend the money to do it right (and they won't get it right the first time either). Consider Ferrari and their magnificent creation the F430 Scuderia. It can shift automagically up or down in 10's of milleseconds, seamlessly matching speeds and timing between both ends of the drivetrain. This capability is the end result of spending 10's of millions of dollars on this particular design problem alone. More, if you begin to count all the F1 experience used to kick the design team off with. This "auto" shift mechanism is a true work of design art. It is seamless, fast & easy to use. Lots of things tried during the workup on this system, and only the winning few retained in the final design.

So what's my point? As a designer of these kinds of systems, I prefer to do the shift work myself because I KNOW the Yamaha folks will never be able to handle in their design all the situations I can with a manual. But I prefer that level of control over the hardware. I also worry about how robust their system will be as it begins to wear. Will their design degrade gracefully? I prefer not to find out. And I expect that any automatic system will be more expensive to fix because of the added complexity inherent in these designs. Remember the KISS rule.

I own a Mitsubishi Evolution VIII with a manual 5-speed box (best fun you can have on 4 wheels for the money...). When the 10's came out with their auotmagic manual tranny, I thought that maybe now was the time to move up. I was disappointed, though, when I took it for a test. The upshifts were done very well but the downshifts were not routinely seamless. Down shifts are typically the hardest things to do right in an auto manual. I decided to keep the VIII and let them keep working the design until they get it closer to what I can do in the VIII when my heel and toe are working in unison.

I also do NOT fly on Airbus aircraft unless there is no other option (and even then sometimes) because the French designers have a philosophy of trying to automate many of the routine things that pilots of these machines do for a living. The result is an aircraft with a tremendous number of modes and auto control loops. Go out onto the professional pilot forums and crawl down into the Airbus sections and read how the pilots feel about this level of automation. There is usually a lot of "I tend to ask myself what's it doing now" behind the discussions on automation. These aircraft have flown themselves into forrests, hillsides and had near misses that lead me to believe they are not as safe as competing designs (Boeing for instance...they have a much different design philosophy when it comes to automation) when considered strictly from the point of level of automation. I will be surprised if we don't find out at some point that the autopilot and its inherent level of control authority wasn't somehow partly responsible for the latest loss of the Air France flight over the Atlantic.

There will always be a market for designs like the FJR13AE. They are persuing a certain class of customer. They just won't find me in that mix. Now, a Ferrari F430...that is a story for another post.

Cheers,

W2

 

[Floridave]

You're using KISS to describe the A version of the FJR? My gosh, this thing is WAY more sophisicated than any motorcycle I've ever had, WAY more than my 97 6sp Z28, another fun car to drive, your definition of KISS is computer controled fuel mapping, ABS linked brakes, electric windshield, on the fly mileage calculations, etc.?

Your writeup all sounded nice, but there's a reason fighter jets are fly by wire, you know more about it than me, but the computer does things the human cannot. For every 'exception' you claim to know about where manual systems MAY have been better, the computers already did it better 100 times over and probably saved untold other human screwups.

Nay sayers tend to pick some single area where their old tech might prove superior, and claim that as some victory. Even though the new tech is probably better in 95% of the other situations.

Your argument sounds exactly like every other new technology vs old technology. Manual SLR cameras vs Automatic or whatever. Let's see, over the years how many people have said 'WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN' concerning Fuel Injection vs Carburators, ABS vs Non ABS, (Them ABS systems'll KILL ya I tell ya!), Liquid vs Air cooling, and before that Electric start vs Kick start.

I bought my FJR used, and it just happened to be an AE model. I wasn't looking for it, wouldn't have paid more for it, and in fact was quite concerned about it and asked about it here. I acknowledge I'd never have considered a new one of off the showroom floor. Now after a few thousand miles, I think it's the coolest thing about my FJR. I just love it. I love it when in traffic and stoplights, I love it on my last few miles from the house when I'm screaming through the gears 6-9000 rpm. I have not had not a single missed shift, or false neutral, or had to 'find' neutral. I know some will claim never to have experienced such things, but I live in the real world and know that we all do. It's just a cool thing, I'd certainly buy it again. I really don't know of ANY instance where I thought, "I wish I had a clutch on here".

I basically like bikes, pretty much of all sort, and rarely criticize what anyone else rides, regardless of what it is, Harley, Bmw, whatever you like is cool. I like bikes. So I surprised that so many here feel the need to be so vocal against it, in straightforward threads where people are just trying to get some information about their own motorcycle. I especially find it odd for a group that's already riding a bike with all this sophistication on it, I mean, I can see a guy on a old kickstart Harley giving me hell, but another FJR rider? I don't know, like a manual Corvette owner laughing at a auto trans Corvette owner. Funny, I feel like more of a ***** using my electric windshield than the click shift.

For 2009, the FRJ1300AE receives new mapping for YCC-S which aids with improved response while downshifting from neutral.

And this underscores the point I tried to make earlier. There will always be attempts by the designers of these systems to make the auto system "better" which really means it tries to automatically emulate the manual system, only faster. They won't get it close to right the first few years. There will ALWAYS be those niggling little problems that riders/drivers complain about and desire to be designed out. The designers will listen (if I were a designer for Yamaha, I would monitor this site) and try to make it "better." But constrained by money and time and, more importantly, the existing design and whatever warts it brings to the table, they will only be able to take it so far. As time goes by, they will approach the capability of the manuals, but rarely ever achieve it with a production bike class. Remember that these bikes we ride are commodities, like tooth paste & automobile tires. The manufacturers don't have the luxury of pouring many $$$ into solving this problem.

The other side of this coin belongs to those rare groups that CAN spend the money to do it right (and they won't get it right the first time either). Consider Ferrari and their magnificent creation the F430 Scuderia. It can shift automagically up or down in 10's of milleseconds, seamlessly matching speeds and timing between both ends of the drivetrain. This capability is the end result of spending 10's of millions of dollars on this particular design problem alone. More, if you begin to count all the F1 experience used to kick the design team off with. This "auto" shift mechanism is a true work of design art. It is seamless, fast & easy to use. Lots of things tried during the workup on this system, and only the winning few retained in the final design.

So what's my point? As a designer of these kinds of systems, I prefer to do the shift work myself because I KNOW the Yamaha folks will never be able to handle in their design all the situations I can with a manual. But I prefer that level of control over the hardware. I also worry about how robust their system will be as it begins to wear. Will their design degrade gracefully? I prefer not to find out. And I expect that any automatic system will be more expensive to fix because of the added complexity inherent in these designs. Remember the KISS rule.

I own a Mitsubishi Evolution VIII with a manual 5-speed box (best fun you can have on 4 wheels for the money...). When the 10's came out with their auotmagic manual tranny, I thought that maybe now was the time to move up. I was disappointed, though, when I took it for a test. The upshifts were done very well but the downshifts were not routinely seamless. Down shifts are typically the hardest things to do right in an auto manual. I decided to keep the VIII and let them keep working the design until they get it closer to what I can do in the VIII when my heel and toe are working in unison.

I also do NOT fly on Airbus aircraft unless there is no other option (and even then sometimes) because the French designers have a philosophy of trying to automate many of the routine things that pilots of these machines do for a living. The result is an aircraft with a tremendous number of modes and auto control loops. Go out onto the professional pilot forums and crawl down into the Airbus sections and read how the pilots feel about this level of automation. There is usually a lot of "I tend to ask myself what's it doing now" behind the discussions on automation. These aircraft have flown themselves into forrests, hillsides and had near misses that lead me to believe they are not as safe as competing design when considered strictly from the point of level of automation. I will be surprised if we don't find out at some point that the autopilot and its inherent level of control authority wasn't somehow partly responsible for the latest loss of the Air France flight over the Atlantic.

There will always be a market for designs like the FJR13AE. They are persuing a certain class of customer. They just won't find me in that mix. Now, a Ferrari F430 is a story for another post...

Cheers,

W2