Something All FJR Owners Should Know

[user 213]

I've read and re-read the initial post, and I am a bit confused. The bike has 88,000 miles, not 60,000 miles. <snip>

The reason I mention the 60k value is because of the attitude of the customer service person, and as an extrapolation of the available data at the time of that post,in my case. If at 88k I am 40 psi below minimum spec, I believe it would be reasonable to think that a 60k motor may be at or slightly below minimum spec.

Honestly, I was pretty bummed out at that point. With the bike in my possession and more data on hand now, I am still not happy about how I was treated and what I was told by Yamaha, but do believe that the motor is far from "worn out", at least in regards to pistons/rings, etc. The data I've gathered myself, indicates to me that the valve train is the primary source of the compression loss. I might be wrong! But that's what I see at this point in the process. I hope to post more compression readings tomorrow that are post de-carbonizing and flogging. Regardless of those results, it will be interesting.

Also please note in previous posts I now realize that the bike is using some oil and there are other issues that affect rideability, that may, or may not be related to the compression and known cam chain tensioner issue. With the previous tensioner failure, there were no idle issues.

Thanks for your input and questions El Toro.

 

[El Toro]

I've read and re-read the initial post, and I am a bit confused. The bike has 88,000 miles, not 60,000 miles. <snip>

Honestly, I was pretty bummed out at that point. With the bike in my possession and more data on hand now, I am still not happy about how I was treated and what I was told by Yamaha,

I know how you feel about being dissed by Yamaha. I had a 1996 Honda Accord (the first of three that I bought in succession in 1998 and 2000.... kids gotta drive somethin'). At 78,000 miles in 2001 the transmission actually totally died. The Honda dealer wouldn't do anything for me except offer to replace the transmission for $3500 at my expense. Honda corporate told me "The warranty is for 50,000 miles. If it falls apart the next day, we owe you nothing."

While they were technically correct, I've had other marques willing to work with me. If they had said "We'll fix it for you at cost" (wholesale parts and internal labor rate) I would have been thrilled. If they'd said "Gee, we're sorry it broke. It shouldn't have. But its out of warranty. Wish we could help." I would have gone away more or less neutral. But for Honda corporate trouble shooters to tell me "You shouldn't expect it to last a minute beyond the warranty." seemed a bit over the top to me.

I took the car to a local transmission shop and had them rebuild the transmission for $1800. One of the kids ran that car right into Fall 2007.

Since 2001 I've been buying Toyotas and GMCs. In fact, I bought my first Toyota the next week. I'll never have that good feeling about Honda again.... sigh....You may feel the same way about Yamaha after your experience. Won't bore you with the story, but I soured on Ford back around 1994 after a long love affair with many of their vehicles. Same reason, i.e., dissed by corporate level lackeys when something bad happened shortly after warranty expired.... in fact in the Ford case, they dissed the problem until the warranty expired and THEN dissed me. Bye Bye Fords. I'll probably never own another.

 

[SkooterG]

Eric, have you seen This Post?

The poster is describing some similar symptoms to yours. Root cause supposedly was soot and valve deposits. Only 29k on the motor, so something was wrong.

 

[FJRMGM]

edit @MGM - I'd like very much to know what your compression readings are now. Any chance you could do it, or know someone that could help you check them? Some tool rental places, and auto parts stores, rent the compression test equipment. I don't think your motor is worn out, or anyone else's. Just saying what I believe Yamaha thinks our motor life is, judging from my conversations with customer service over my issue.

my motor is running too strongly for there to be much compression loss at all.

I can power wheelie it up in 2nd gear with no problem and when in 5th and I crack the throttle it just JUMPS instantly.

Coming back from NAFO I was having a lot of fun with the 5th gear throttle roll-ons while out there in the deserted high plains.

I know what the engine feels like when it is down on compression as this is a repaired ticker and it runs like a high performance engine now compared to when it was "wounded".

To answer your question about if I could check the compression on mine, I am working out of town now and have no time for the test.

 

[user 213]

Eric, have you seen This Post?
The poster is describing some similar symptoms to yours. Root cause supposedly was soot and valve deposits. Only 29k on the motor, so something was wrong.

I had not seen that post. Did see an older one about dusting on a low mileage bike. The post you reference looks a little like overfill of the oil, causing oil to enter the airbox through the breather. Interesting thing to check out on my bike though. I'll likely pull the entire airbox off in the near future and see what the TBs look like anyway. Thanks for the heads up.

@MGM - Thanks for the response.

 

[Fred W]

Piston skirts can crack (or, even break-off -- especially in cases where they've become too loose in their bores). Piston skirts can also deform -- lose their shape (it's really not that un-common).Poor piston shape = poor piston/cylinder fit = poor compression (and, usually, some engine noise too).

And that is a common failure mode so it is the only one they list?

 

[user 213]

Piston skirts can crack (or, even break-off -- especially in cases where they've become too loose in their bores). Piston skirts can also deform -- lose their shape (it's really not that un-common).Poor piston shape = poor piston/cylinder fit = poor compression (and, usually, some engine noise too).

And that is a common failure mode so it is the only one they list?

More often what I've seen is just ring grooves that are wider than they should be from wear. The Yamaha manual seems pretty light on details in many areas.

 

[radman]

More often what I've seen is just ring grooves that are wider than they should be from wear. The Yamaha manual seems pretty light on details in many areas.

It's not really written for the DIY'er. It assumes the person reading it has a general working knowledge of mechanics/basic engineering. Piston wear, for example, has commonalities with few exceptions throughout motordom. It seems the manual also appears to assume the user has a general knowledge of items unique/specific to Yamaha products, like there exists somewhere a huge Yammi manual covering all the basics.

 

[Fred W]

More often what I've seen is just ring grooves that are wider than they should be from wear. The Yamaha manual seems pretty light on details in many areas.

It's not really written for the DIY'er. It assumes the person reading it has a general working knowledge of mechanics/basic engineering. Piston wear, for example, has commonalities with few exceptions throughout motordom. It seems the manual also appears to assume the user has a general knowledge of items unique/specific to Yamaha products, like there exists somewhere a huge Yammi manual covering all the basics.

That may be the case. I know that Honda does have exactly such a thing called the "Honda Common Service Manual" of all things.

 

[blufjr]

Eric, I just went out to look at my invoices from Action as I remember they noted the compression on the receipt. Well, they did on the 26,000 valve adjustment (235,225,225,225), but nothing on the 53,600 check. You might check yours. The first one was done by Scott Michell and the second one done by Gary Diehl, maybe that has something to do with it. They also itemized on the first but not the second.

I'd have loved to know what was going on at 26k, 52k, 68k (when the first cam chain tensioner was replaced), and now.

 

[Graham Downunder]

I have just looked at your post and the replies so here is my opion

Compresion Test reading are more about comparing each cylinder that what they actual are

Your reading with and without oil are fine

What would I do ?

Yes I would do as you are doing with regards the fuel system.

Running rough can be many things ,but as you have the plugs out replace them and clean the leads, look carefully for worn insulating .Then start looking at other things ( cleaning the fuel system could help ) once you have done the following

Change oil to rotella disel oil as the engine oil lubricate the gearbox and gearboxs put high shear loads on the oil ,disel oils are designed for higher shear loads thus they last longer ,they also "clean" a bit better . I would then chang the oil again in 1,000 miles.Fresh oil has a habit of quiting an engine down the sounds just disapear.

Take the bike for a ride of at least 2 hours then report back

As for the engine being only good for 60k that's BS ,to many of them out there around the world with much more miles .

 

[user 213]

I have just looked at your post and the replies so here is my opion Compresion Test reading are more about comparing each cylinder that what they actual are

Your reading with and without oil are fine

<snip>

Take the bike for a ride of at least 2 hours then report back

As for the engine being only good for 60k that's BS ,to many of them out there around the world with much more miles .

Thanks for your input. As to "fine", in regards to spread, yes. In regards to some semblance of relation to the specs, no, they are not fine. Remember, I didn't go in complaining of a problem, I was instead told of the problem by the dealer. 60k BS, sure is. Now tell me why Yamaha is implying that and making no effort to point me in other directions instead of telling me my motor is "worn out".

I already did what you suggested about new plugs and the rotella. (noted in previous posts) "Ride for at least 2 hours" :lol: :lol: :lol: I think I covered that. Rode a bit over 1k last weekend. Haven't had time to work on the bike this week. Plan on changing the oil for fresh Rotella again and checking the compression again as soon as I have time. Will post findings.

 

[user 213]

Got some garage time last night. After doing the decarbonizing routine and riding 1k, "flogging the bike" when I could, the compression results are as follows:

Hot motor, (two bars), throttle wide open, injectors unplugged, fully charged battery, (optimate maintenance charger showing green);

Dry test: #1 - 161 psi_____Wet test: #1 - 190__________Original test: #1 - 169

________#2 - 160______________#2 - 195____________________#2 - 164

________#3 - 157______________#3 - 182____________________#3 - 160

________#4 - 150______________#4 - 170____________________#4 - 155

In the first wet test previously posted I didn't have an easy way to get some motor oil down into the cylinders and used some light 3 in 1 oil. The oil may have been too light, or I didn't use enough to fully seal the rings. That test only showed about 10 psi gain over the dry test at the time.

This time I had a method to squirt some 20-50 bike specific Golden Spectra oil into the cylinders and was able to see what quantity I was putting in there better.

Looks like my values have actually fallen slightly in the last 1k miles. Also appears that the rings are a more significant source of the compression loss than I first thought. Still can't explain why this has occurred with any certainty.

blufjr came by and I tested his motor as well. He has 80k, test conditions were essentially the same. He has a new battery and his bike was just off the road. His results:

#1 - 191

#2 - 202

#3 - 200

#4 - 200

Nothing wrong with these numbers! Still slightly below spec min. of 198 on one cylinder, but nothing to stress about at this point. More along the lines of what I expected at 88k on my bike, rather than the low numbers I see.

This is an '05 fwiw, and if anything he rides more aggressively than I do, at least judging from his tire longevity, which isn't quite as good as mine, but comes close, IIRC.

I'm still waiting on the new cam chain tensioner and trying to find and clean the potential wire corrosion issue that Skooterg pointed out to see if that helps the idle problem.

Edit: found the electrical connector referenced and there was no evidence of corrosion at all. Unplugged it and looked inside as well as examining both ends.

Changing the oil again today, then riding to Boise and back this weekend. Oil was dark, but not black after 1k. Rotella again, fwiw.

 

[Colin24]

The conclusion? "Your motor is worn out".

Really!!??? Just because the piston rings (and maybe an O2 sensor) are worn they come to the conclusion that the entire engine is worn out?

If a dealer tried to tell me this I would call him and his mechanics a bunch of f@#$!ng d@#ch b?gs. Whats next? If the tires are worn the dealer recomends that the entire wheel be replaced? Fork seals leaking: lets replace the whole chassis! Jeeze, gimme a break!

I read most of the replies and the other investigation you have done. All sounds good. Gonna make some general rambling comments about this issue and related stuff that crossed my mind while reading through all the replies;

• Just because one engine failed prematurely does not mean that all engines were designed to only last to that point. Kind of an over-reaching conculsion doncha think?
• If the dealer makes the conclusion that worn rings means a worn engine; Then yes I would doubt the veracity of his measurements and methodology. I see you've redone the tests yourself. Good for you. And the results were not as bad, not really surprising.
• If it is the rings, then just by a new set of rings have the cylinders rehoned and then re-break in the engine. I did this in an older bike that did have worn rings. I put over 50K miles after that before I finally sold the bike.
• All the other suggestions about carbon build up and how to blow it out are good ones. Anything you can do to "fix" the problem without going into the engine is worth a try before you start pulling the engine out. Remember; Feel free to flog the engine, just dont abuse it!
• I've got over 70,000 miles on my '05. Runs just fine. Little bit of rattling last year but I replaced the tensioner, cam chain and guides and that got rid of it. I've checked the valves every year. In spec every time and never needs adjusting.
• I replace the oil every 3100 miles (5000 km). I run a high quality oil. (Do not want to turn this into an oil thread by mentioning names or type).
• I replace the air filter and spark plugs (NGK platinum) once a year. Sometimes twice a year depending on the riding/miles I've been doing that year.
• When the oil gets to around 2500 miles I start to notice it wearing out. Shifting gets stiffer and notchier is the best way I can describe it. Fresh oil and the shifting issues go away (till I get to around 2500 miles again). You seemed to indicate you change around every 5000 miles. Wouldn't be a bad idea to increase that to a shorter interval. (You can't hurt and engine by changing the oil too often).
• Did you buy the bike new or used? If used how do you know the original owner (be it you ro someone else) performed a proper breakin. I've heard of that an improper breakin (or more directly, too "weak" of a breakin) can cause the rings not to seat properly, leading to lower compression. Perhaps this problem (if it is the rings) started way back then. Since then the compression, while lower than optimal, never really changed. Just thinking out loud.
• Whenever I open up the bike and do work I need to unplug a variety of electrical connectors. The very first year I did this I packed every connector with dielectric grease. In following years as I have done more work I recheck when I put them back apart and add more dielectric if necessary. The only connector I haven't done this too is the ECU connection due to the multiple fine pitch pins and the fact it has a good o-ring sealing the connection.

All of the above advice is IMHO. My $0.02 worth. Use at your own risk, etc etc etc...

- Colin

 

[El Toro]

If it is the rings, then just by a new set of rings have the cylinders rehoned and then re-break in the engine. I did this in an older bike that did have worn rings. I put over 50K miles after that before I finally sold the bike.

I don't know about the FJR, but the YZF R6 won't take rehoning, and there are no oversize rings or pistons available from Yamaha. From what I can tell, this is a fairly common approach for modern bikes.

I just took a look at the parts microfiche for my 06 FJR AE, and the only size for pistons and rings is the standard size. That usually means they have either a coating on the cylinder walls, or they are using a composite for the actual cylinder.

"The engine is worn out" is a fairly common modern line. They make them so that they will last with proper maintenance and minimal abuse for what would have been considered an incredibly long life, and then when they fail, they're toast.

I've got four of the 03-05 YZF R6 engines, three in student Formula cars, and one on a water brake dyno. One of them had some cylinder bore problems due to water sitting on top of a piston during a salvage phase, and after a dingleberry hone didn't clean it up adequately, that's the one on the dyno for demo purposes.

I have a 2002 VFR 800 engine that we've sectioned for display. Its cylinders are of a composite matrix. I don't know how well it would take refinishing. Suzukis are often coated with a proprietary coating. They don't want to be refinished either.

If the oil specs are followed and air and oil filters are changed properly, and oil is changed on the noted intervals, and engine coolant is paid proper homage, then these engines will generally last a really long time....Lets face it though - back in the day motorcycle engines lasted 10K to 15K before rebuilding, and if we found one that made it to 20K, it was a joy and also a surprise.

Someone mentioned they thought a Norton rider had gotten to put 500K miles on a Norton the other day in another thread. I can't imagine this based on my experience with Brit bikes of the pre-collapse Brit industry era.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

Alot of that 'long engine life' bragging often, when investigated, ends-up being akin to the farmer's favorite long-life axe -- only needed two head replacements and four handle replacements....

 

[RayW]

I think it was Jestal who said words to the effect that I was babying the motor too much, spend more time in the higher rpm band, and once every wild hair go ahead and run the bike at warp speed to red line, shift quick, do it again, then decelerate with engine braking hard.

last time I did that I ended up with a ticket.

Always check behind you before you try this. :angry:

Ray

 

[user 213]

The conclusion? "Your motor is worn out".

Really!!??? Just because the piston rings (and maybe an O2 sensor) are worn they come to the conclusion that the entire engine is worn out?

As I understand it, the FJR engine is not re-borable due to the coatings. This is not to say that it can't be re-built. And I'm sure if I toss them enough cash, they will be happy to do so. Note that they want 15 hours of labor to re-do the head alone. :blink:

If a dealer tried to tell me this I would call him and his mechanics a bunch of f@#$!ng d@#ch b?gs. Whats next? If the tires are worn the dealer recomends that the entire wheel be replaced? Fork seals leaking: lets replace the whole chassis! Jeeze, gimme a break!
I read most of the replies and the other investigation you have done. All sounds good. Gonna make some general rambling comments about this issue and related stuff that crossed my mind while reading through all the replies;

• Just because one engine failed prematurely does not mean that all engines were designed to only last to that point. Kind of an over-reaching conculsion doncha think?

As I stated before, I was a little upset/suprised/etc. at the time of that post, and I still do think all owners should realize Yamaha essentially think that after 60k you are on your own if you have an engine issue that could be construed as wear. The YES specifically lists low compression due to rings as a not covered issue, but honestly I never thought I'd be in that position. Guess I'm just used to modern motors, not those "back in the day".

If the dealer makes the conclusion that worn rings means a worn engine; Then yes I would doubt the veracity of his measurements and methodology. I see you've redone the tests yourself. Good for you. And the results were not as bad, not really surprising. If it is the rings, then just by a new set of rings have the cylinders rehoned and then re-break in the engine. I did this in an older bike that did have worn rings. I put over 50K miles after that before I finally sold the bike. All the other suggestions about carbon build up and how to blow it out are good ones. Anything you can do to "fix" the problem without going into the engine is worth a try before you start pulling the engine out. Remember; Feel free to flog the engine, just dont abuse it! I've got over 70,000 miles on my '05. Runs just fine. Little bit of rattling last year but I replaced the tensioner, cam chain and guides and that got rid of it. I've checked the valves every year. In spec every time and never needs adjusting.

Yep, my FJR was just like that at 70k too!!

I replace the oil every 3100 miles (5000 km). I run a high quality oil. (Do not want to turn this into an oil thread by mentioning names or type). I replace the air filter and spark plugs (NGK platinum) once a year. Sometimes twice a year depending on the riding/miles I've been doing that year. When the oil gets to around 2500 miles I start to notice it wearing out. Shifting gets stiffer and notchier is the best way I can describe it. Fresh oil and the shifting issues go away (till I get to around 2500 miles again). You seemed to indicate you change around every 5000 miles. Wouldn't be a bad idea to increase that to a shorter interval. (You can't hurt and engine by changing the oil too often). Did you buy the bike new or used? If used how do you know the original owner (be it you ro someone else) performed a proper breakin. I've heard of that an improper breakin (or more directly, too "weak" of a breakin) can cause the rings not to seat properly, leading to lower compression. Perhaps this problem (if it is the rings) started way back then. Since then the compression, while lower than optimal, never really changed. Just thinking out loud. Whenever I open up the bike and do work I need to unplug a variety of electrical connectors. The very first year I did this I packed every connector with dielectric grease. In following years as I have done more work I recheck when I put them back apart and add more dielectric if necessary. The only connector I haven't done this too is the ECU connection due to the multiple fine pitch pins and the fact it has a good o-ring sealing the connection.

I bought the bike new, did a proper moto man break in. I don't believe break in was abusive or too "weak", and up until recently have not used oil and consistantly gotten 46-48 mpg.

All of the above advice is IMHO. My $0.02 worth. Use at your own risk, etc etc etc...
- Colin

Thanks for your input Colin.

Right now if I can get the idle sorted, and the tensioner replaced, I will be much happier. Not sure what I'll do after that.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

As I understand it, the FJR engine is not re-borable due to the coatings. This is not to say that it can't be re-built. And I'm sure if I toss them enough cash, they will be happy to do so. Note that they want 15 hours of labor to re-do the head alone. :blink: Right now if I can get the idle sorted, and the tensioner replaced, I will be much happier. Not sure what I'll do after that

The presence of coated cylinder walls may actually be a 'plus' -- if one were to continue down the road of engine repair? Cylinders need to be 'bored' (re-sized) when they are: out of round, tapered bores, worn to excess, or bigger size bores are wanted for bigger pistons. If coated cylinders prevent cylinder wear then that's one less operation to do for a top-end 'refresh'. Maybe, though, the coated linings are the problem? -- Like many similar cases (where un-knowns exist) more info is needed -- The next logical step (I think) would be disassemble and measurements taken with a bore gauge and a micrometer (cylinder bore size and piston skirt diameter). Then, comparisons made to Yamaha specs -- although, engine rebuilders have much common knowledge of piston/cylinder 'fit' specs.

As to the issue of long-lasting engines and rebuildable engines (and cost) -- not many Japanese street bike engines get rebuilt. Antique and vintage engines get rebuilt; so do H-D engines. Competition engines get rebuilt and it's often very expensive. Many dealers will try to discourage a customer from rebuilding their Japanese M/C (street-bike) engine -- I don't know? I guess? they feel it's just not 'cost-effective'? For whatever reason/s? -- it's just not done.... :huh:

 

[oldryder]

just a thought. I agree with many here that it's unlikely your engine is worn out given good maintenance.

theres are lots of possible issues with the data but YOU know it's not burning oil.

if you put it on a dyno and it performed close to new specs you could quit worrying.