Something All FJR Owners Should Know

[user 213]

I was not going to post until I had more data, but to answer some of the well stated questions, I'll add some more info here.

Fred W. and Charismatic asked about performance/running right:

I was under the impression that the shop couldn't get the proper exhaust numbers from your bike -- and hence the "engine worn-out" conclusion? Not, that you had a performance complaint....

When I rode it into the shop, my only issue was the cam chain noise. Riding it out of the shop, the idle wouldn't stay even and it bogs under WOT. I was told, (and already knew), that the plugs and air filter are due for replacement. I think that some or all of this is due to having those items compomised and the O2 sensor actually being good now and the ECU attempting to deal with the situation. Before with the dead O2, it was just running on canned maps, much like a PC III would. Note that Skooter's bike isn't using the O2 sensor, so that may acutally be in his favor.

I think the warranty is for defects in material and workmanship -- not normal wear & tear? Usually, that means a part fails. I don't think it can be construed to provide you with a new/like-new bike for the term of the warranty.

Well put, and I agree. I didn't go to Yamaha saying I wanted a rebuild or new motor, I went asking "what's going on with my bike?" The warranty specifically does not cover low compression due to worn rings. The debate, and it can be a heated one, is wether this is normal wear or premature wear. If your brake pads wore out in 30k, it would be normal wear, if perhaps faster than some other riders. If they wore out in 1k or even 5k, you would wonder what caused that because it would be considered by most to be premature wear. Same kind of thing here, but the burden is on me to prove what condition or defective part caused the premature wear.

What was your initial running/riding performance complaint?

Noted above, just the cam chain noise. Dealer says an irratic idle led them to the bad O2 sensor, (and diagnostic codes, I believe).

I am not yet convinced your FJR is 'dead'. Especially since you report no smoke, oil consumption, or power loss.

I hope that is true, and am trying to do what I can to see if things will improve.

Good luck -- I hope you get it all resolved (to your satisfaction).

Thanks.

I don't believe break in method would have taken this long to show up some issue if the break in method was abusive. Likewise I don't believe oil choice had much, if anything to do with this. I do change the oil regularly after all. Same for filter, etc. Let's not devolve into arguments over personal preferences on oil, change intervals or break in methods. None of those can be proven to have been part of this issue at this point in time.

 

[mophead]

Chevron makes a product called Techron that cleans injectors and innards very well. I have used it in cars, bikes, lawnmowers, and just about everything I have that has a gasoline engine. It works.

Some of the mechanics around here use it for the decarboning process that takes a special injector and circulation to really get after gunked up motors. Available at parts stores.

 

[Constant Mesh]

I doubt the oxygen sensor had any affect on the engine idle conditions. According to the service manual the oxygen sensor input is used by the ECU only during relatively constant engine speed conditions occurring between acceleration and deceleration operations. The '04 didn't have a heated sensor so it wouldn't work very well until the exhaust system was up to normal operating temperature.

Engine cranking speed is critical to the compression test. If the battery is not in perfect condition the cranking speed may be reduced and the compression results will be low. The compression specification is based on 400 rpm cranking.

 

[Fred W]

I was not going to post until I had more data, but to answer some of the well stated questions, I'll add some more info here.
Fred W. and Charismatic asked about performance/running right:

I was under the impression that the shop couldn't get the proper exhaust numbers from your bike -- and hence the "engine worn-out" conclusion? Not, that you had a performance complaint....

When I rode it into the shop, my only issue was the cam chain noise. Riding it out of the shop, the idle wouldn't stay even and it bogs under WOT. I was told, (and already knew), that the plugs and air filter are due for replacement. I think that some or all of this is due to having those items compomised and the O2 sensor actually being good now and the ECU attempting to deal with the situation. Before with the dead O2, it was just running on canned maps, much like a PC III would. Note that Skooter's bike isn't using the O2 sensor, so that may acutally be in his favor.

Aha!! The plot thickens (as more information is pulled like a dentist yanks on wisdom teeth... )

So, the bike was running fine. You brought it in for some warranty work because of cam chain noise. They "fixed" it and it runs like shit now. And you trust these guys explicitly...

See anything wrong with this picture?

I doubt the oxygen sensor had any affect on the engine idle conditions. According to the service manual the oxygen sensor input is used by the ECU only during relatively constant engine speed conditions occurring between acceleration and deceleration operations. The '04 didn't have a heated sensor so it wouldn't work very until the exhaust system was up to normal operating temperature.
Engine cranking speed is critical to the compression test. If the battery is not in perfect condition the cranking speed may be reduced and the compression results will be low. The compression specification is based on 400 rpm cranking.

No, the lambda sensor is most definitely in play at idle. You are right that an unheated O2 sensor has a much longer warm up time, but the manufacturers get measured o n emissions heavily at idle. So that is where they spend a lot of their engineering dollars to lean out the mixture.

I agree with your other assertion about the compression testing.

 

[Constant Mesh]

According to the service manual the oxygen sensor only affects injection during relatively constant engine operations after the engine has passed from an accelerating phase to a constant phase where neither accelerating nor decelerating is occurring -- the throttle grip is relatively motionless.

The injection duration schedule is broken into several sequential parts:

1. Starting injection

2. Warm-up injection

3. Idle injection

4. Acceleration injection

5. Constant injection

6. Deceleration injection

7. Idle injection

The feedback from the oxygen sensor is used for injection control only during #5 above.

This info comes from a January 2001 FJR service manual. I'm not sure if any later manuals offer this level of detail about the injection scheme. Maybe when they introduced the heated sensor in '06 they incorporated the sensor into other parts of the injection schedule. But before '06 I'd speculate the sensor was used only in #5.

 

[Spook]

Yeah, fine genius. But, what's your compression? After your "breakin", maybe it never was any better than the OP's.

For a bike that regularly cruises at 150+ and 160 after joining the 100K club? Pretty frickin' good newbie and FJR as a third choice.

I second the note that you SHOULDN'T turn this into a Motoman thread. Go start another if you want.

How is it that breakin can't possibly have anything to do with premature wear?

I'm getting a good start on my "nitwits I can safely ignore" list from the responses to my post.

Speaking of nitwits do you have a clue what an admin is?????

 

[user 213]

@CM and Fred W - Thanks for the input. I do have the full '04 shop manual with the ABS supplement, so I'll read up and see what it says about the O2 sensor's input, among other things I need to read there.

@Mophead - Familiar with Techron, have used it for years in the cages. The FJR gets mostly Chevron fuel as well.

I have some nasty top end cleaner that I'm going to let the engine suck s-l-o-w-l-y in through the TBs, (using the vac lines), while running at about 2500 rpm. I plan on letting it suck in about half the 4 once bottle, then letting it sit over night before running the rest in, then flogging the bike some. (please note that I have used this process before on other vehicles and am aware of the risks of over-doing it) I also have some Ring Free that will go in the gas as per instructions on the bottle. I have some Techron in the garage too, but will probably leave that for later on since it's suggested to be more of an injector cleaner, though valve bits too.

First steps are to do the compression test dry and wet before I do anything new. Once those values are recorded, then I'll do the decarbonizing routine and repeat the tests.

I will post if I find anything unusual when pulling the air filter and plugs, as well as posting the values I record during my compression testing. I do use a good quality battery tender device and the battery charge is topped off. I am aware of how low charge will cause lower readings. Ditto for not having the throttle wide open or the air filter out or at least clean.

Bonus laugh of the day - Yamaha sent me a Service Survey in the mail that arrived today. Mostly about the dealership. The last part is titled "Final Thoughts" and asks:

Please rate the following aspects of your vehicle:

- The quality of your Yamaha

- The performance of your Yamaha

- The value you receive from your Yamaha considering the money you have spent

- Your overall YAMAHA ownership experience

I may have to wait a bit before I fill this survey out. :blink:

 

[user 213]

Aha!! The plot thickens (as more information is pulled like a dentist yanks on wisdom teeth... )
So, the bike was running fine. You brought it in for some warranty work because of cam chain noise. They "fixed" it and it runs like shit now. And you trust these guys explicitly...

See anything wrong with this picture?

Is the rest of you as smart as your a$$?

I don't trust the manager so completely, but I do believe the techs are worthy. There aren't a lot of better options in town. I do have some experience with some of the not so good dealerships, unfortunately. One of the reasons I do most of my own work.

Some days I'd be a lot happier if people would just do as I tell them instead of trying so hard to think for themselves. Can't help but wonder what would have happened if they had just changed the cam chain tensioner and left the rest alone. Would I be happy and ignorant of the rest? Or would the other boot have dropped soon enough? No way to know now.

 

[Fred W]

First steps are to do the compression test dry and wet before I do anything new. Once those values are recorded, then I'll do the decarbonizing routine and repeat the tests.

This is a very good idea for two reasons. One you can verify the shop's findings (different operator, different gauge). And if the dry compression is actually as low as they said it was, a higher wet compression will tell you if there really is ring blow by, as they suggest. You could then proceed with the decarbonizing and see if you can get any compression gains. If the wet compression is not higher then decarbonizing will probably not net you anything, but it probably won't hurt anything either.

It might be of interest to get a peek inside the combustion chambers before you do all of this. It would require some sort of a scope though. A look at the tips of your plugs will tell you a lot about what's going on in there anyway.

Is the rest of you as smart as your a$$?

Yes! I mean NO!, I mean... awwww nevermind. :eh-smiley:

 

[user 213]

@Fred W - Exactly my reasoning for doing the tests. I want my own base line with my own gauge before moving on. I may be able to borrow a bore scope from work to look at the inside. Good idea.

Plug reading is an art unto itself and tougher with EFI motors. What I can say is that the Iridiums in there have not lasted as long as the previous set. What I don't know is if the shop put the plugs back in the same cylinders that they came out of, so that may not be very useful.

 

[EXPDSGT]

Good Bye for a while ajf --- LOL

 

[FJRBluesman]

Don't make me come down there! :lol: Irvine is very familiar to me. Used to be stationed at El Toro.

OCfjr - I'm not sure when you left or the last time you were down in the PRI (Peoples Republic of Irvine), but you won't recognize it. Progress is out of control!

Good luck on the scoot. Hope you get 3 times the miles out of it.

 

[radman]

I'm getting a good start on my "nitwits I can safely ignore" list from the responses to my post.

Here, let me help you out here, Mr 7 Posts.... I wouldn't want you to have to fret about keeping a list for all those you decide to ignore.

So lemme just go ahead and unsubscribe your dumb ass for week..... now you can ignore everyone, and everyone can do the same with you.

I am all about creating win-win's.

Best part is, Sleazy Board just met their new member quota for the month.

 

[Wolfhound]

I'm getting a good start on my "nitwits I can safely ignore" list from the responses to my post.

Here, let me help you out here, Mr 7 Posts.... I wouldn't want you to have to fret about keeping a list for all those you decide to ignore.

So lemme just go ahead and unsubscribe your dumb ass for week..... now you can ignore everyone, and everyone can do the same with you.

I am all about creating win-win's.

Best part is, Sleazy Board just met their new member quota for the month.

Hey ! My dumbass resembled that remark, Some day I hope to get better, but I did learn something quick, Thanx rad . . . . (from the past)

 

[Ignacio]

I'm getting a good start on my "nitwits I can safely ignore" list from the responses to my post.

Here, let me help you out here, Mr 7 Posts.... I wouldn't want you to have to fret about keeping a list for all those you decide to ignore.

So lemme just go ahead and unsubscribe your dumb ass for week..... now you can ignore everyone, and everyone can do the same with you.

I am all about creating win-win's.

Best part is, Sleazy Board just met their new member quota for the month.

Poor guy. Annoying three admins consecutively within 7 posts. Dude never really had a chance. It should be noted, I think he might have been a troll from some brew-ha-ha gone by that got himself a new ISP.

Regardless, he didn't take to the time-out kindly and tried some choice words about taking his ball home, and saying he could still search and find whatever he wanted....implying there isn't anything we could do about that.

Heh. I wonder how his searching is going at this very moment? Bwah...hah..hah. :assassin:

 

[gr8eyes]

Since it seems we'll now wait till Ocfjr does his own compression test, I have a question that I hope is appropriate here. How hard is the compression test to perform and whats a rough estimate of the cost of the gauge?

I'm no mechanic, though I've done all my own service so far, including TBS and removing the pumpkin for a good greasing. So I ask the questions because it may be something I could do myself.

Glenn

 

[Fred W]

Since it seems we'll now wait till Ocfjr does his own compression test, I have a question that I hope is appropriate here. How hard is the compression test to perform and whats a rough estimate of the cost of the gauge?
I'm no mechanic, though I've done all my own service so far, including TBS and removing the pumpkin for a good greasing. So I ask the questions because it may be something I could do myself.

Glenn

Glenn,

It's relatively easy to do, once you have access to the spark plugs. It amounts to unscrewing the spark plugs from the head and threading a gauge in one cylinder at a time. There are probably some other things that you'd want to do, like disabling the ignition and fuel injection. You really just want the engine turning on the power of the starter motor.

Gauges can be very inexpensive to somewhat expensive depending on which one you buy. Generally, what we are interested in is the cylinder to cylinder variation, therefore absolute accuracy is not so important. In the case of OCFJR's situation, he wants to know the absolute pressure, so a more expensive gauge (maybe even one that has been calibrated) would be required.

If you do a quick google of "compression test engine" you will find more sites than you want to read with information on how to perform one and what the readings mean. Interpreting the readings is the part that requires the most knowledge.

 

[gr8eyes]

Thanks Fred, It sounds like somrthing I can handle. Well maybe not the interpretation part, but there seems to be alot of guys here that can help with that part once I have some numbers. I take it the gauge reading doesn't show a certain percentage lower than normal.

I'll google that right up.

 

[johnny80s]

Some people just don't get it. Even after SkooterG laid it all out very nice.

Gunny to the admins. Grounded for a week!

 

[FJRMGM]

well, it is certainly disconcerning to hear the FJR motor wears out at 60k miles, especially since mine is at 60k miles right now and is running like a scalded dog.

Question - what brand and octane level of gasoline due you burn in your FJR?

I suggestion you run nothing but a good grade gasoline with Techron in it and add half-can of Sea Foam to each tank for a while and then go out and run that baby up in the rpm range to blow the carbon out of it to see if that helps.

well, it is certainly disconcerning to hear the FJR motor wears out at 60k miles, especially since mine is at 60k miles right now and is running like a scalded dog.

Question - what brand and octane level of gasoline due you burn in your FJR?

I suggest you run nothing but a good grade 87 octane gasoline with Techron in it and add half-can of Sea Foam to each tank for a while and then go out and run that baby up in the rpm range to blow the carbon out of it to see if that helps.