Something All FJR Owners Should Know

[user 213]

This thread is an old thread that has already come to conclusion - PLEASE DO NOT POST RESPONSES. Skip to the last couple of pages if you want to see the end.

This is hard. I really, really hard, I like my FJR. A lot. I currently have 88k on my '04A. My extended YES warranty was due to expire on 7/16/08, five years after I picked my baby up from Sunyside Motorsports, A.K.A. Desert Valley Powersports. I have used my FJR to go places. Places near and far, but mostly far. I only rode 5k in '05 since my Da was dying of cancer, but still managed to get to Hyder and do White Stag that year. The road quiets the voices in my head, and the FJR has been there through a lot over the last five years.

Just before NAFO, before my warranty was about to expire, I noted some cam chain noise. Having suffered a previous cam chain tensioner failure that was replaced under warranty at 68k, I knew well the sounds of cam chain slop. I took my FJR to the local preferred dealer, Action Motorsports in Fairview, OR. An excellent dealership with not one, but two five star rated Yamaha techs. They have done right by me on valve adjustments and warranty work in the past. I have no complaints with them.

They opened a Repair Order and called Yamaha. Yamaha reviewed my history and requested that the bike be opened up prior to ordering a tensioner, as there was some concern that the chain or cam gears may be worn, rather than just a tensioner since the first one lasted 68k and it had only been <20k on the replacement. M'kay, that's fine with me, but I had NAFO to go to, so I arranged to drop the bike off on the 29th of July, upon return from NAFO. The deal was that since the RO was initiated prior to the end of my YES, I was still covered under warranty. Cool.

I dropped the bike off on the 28th, literally on the way home from NAFO. A good friend gave me a ride home from the dealership and I worked a couple of days, then hopped on the Road King and headed for Sturgis. Somewhere in MT I had a voice mail that my cam chain, cam gears and tensioner appeared to be fine, but there was an intermittant low idle that they were trying to track down.

This became an O2 sensor that was dead. They replaced the O2 sensor and put the bike on an EGA to re-set the CO settings. Hmm, come to find out I had very high CO and HC readings. After further consulting Yamaha, an ECU was swapped in to see if there was an issue with the brain. No change. At this point a compression test and leak down test were performed. The FJR spec for compression is 198-228 psi. Mine was 155/157/165/152. Leak down was 18%/16%/15%/25%. Acceptable leak down is 3-5%. Give or take. Over 10% is usually indicative of a problem. Leakage was occurring past the rings and the valves, both in significant amounts.

The conclusion? "Your motor is worn out". (both from the dealership techs and the Yamaha RTA), The YES specifically states that low compression due to ring wear is not covered. The dealer spent a lot of time talking with Yamaha's tech people, essentially saying that this motor should not be worn out. My tire log shows 10k or close to it on all my rear tires. I'm a smooth rider that rides the PACE and spends a lot of time at relatively constant highway speeds. Well, there is some variation in riders, but this is still considered normal wear by Yamaha. No warranty coverage. I spent about three hours talking to the customer service reps. Multiple calls. I tried my best to argue my points that this was not "normal" wear, but premature wear. Never would they give me a solid number on how long the motor was expected to last, just that mine was worn out and that was not a covered condition. Had it failed, then I may have had a leg to stand on, as that is a different issue. Failure is covered.

Hell, my Oxtar Matrix boots have more miles and are still 100% waterproof.

So, what should every FJR owner know? Your motor was designed to last about 60k. Near as I can tell at least. I strongly recommend that every FJR owner have their FJR tested for compression at every valve adjustment period and have these values documented by the dealer. Maybe, just maybe, it will save you some suffering and bring to your attention that compression is falling off before your YES expires. And just maybe you'll have a shot and getting some "help" in fixing that.

Today I picked up my FJR. No motor work done. As I got to the first light, half a block from the dealership, I heard the cam chain noise clear as day. I 'flipped a bitch' and rode back to the dealership and got the manager to listen to it. He is ordering a tensioner, under warranty, and will replace it free when it comes in.

I can't afford to replace the FJR right now. Most likely I'll just keep riding it until it won't run any more. It doesn't burn or blow oil at this point and seems fine, except for the cam chain noise and some erratic idle issues still present. I'm hoping some fresh plugs and an air filter will cure that. I don't know how long it will continue to perform well enough to ride, but there are a bunch of FJRs with over 100k out there, so you would think it would continue for a while.

I never thought my FJR was a disposable bike. Had Yamaha told me the motor was expected to last 60k, I probably would not have bought the bike. The only other things that have worn out on the bike have been the front brake pads at 77k and I did upgrade the shock at 25k or so. Oh yeah, and that first cam chain tensioner at 68k. I still have the original rear pads, (getting there), and the original battery. Never mind things like clutch plates, pumps and any number of things that wouldn't have caused me a moments lost sleep if they had worn out by now. Those are all fine! The motor wore out first!!!

FWIW, Kawasaki will tell you that the C-14 motor should easily last 100k. And Yamaha doesn't sell crate motors. Buyer beware.

 

[bramfrank]

Well THAT certainly sucks.

The engine has to be designed to last longer than 60K - heck my KZ550 engine is supposedly good for about 80K and that was early '80s technology.

The quick of it is to watch Ebay for an engine - there's one that's been on at least twice with 1600 miles on it and I think he wanted about $1500 plus shipping. Maybe that's an option.

On the other hand, 60K is NOT a long time. It is fewer than 3 valve adjust intervals . .you never got to pay for the third one.

Something is *not right* and Yamaha isn't stepping up - at least they'll do the chain/tensioner replacement. But it really isn't enough. They should make a deal for a ring job with you - perhaps offerig to pay a portion, if not all of it.

 

[user 213]

I am suggesting from where my severely low compression is now, that at 60k I was either at the minimum, or more likely below it already. I have done the third valve adjustment just now at 88k. Finally needed some shim changes for the first time. Only exhaust sides. Intakes were still fine.

Yamaha did offer some unspecified "help", IF, I could show some defect or failure of an item other than the rings. But I would have had to pay for the motor disassembly until I was able to prove a defect existed. Based on what the techs and the manager were telling me from their previous testing, I felt this was not promising, and at 15 hours of labor for a head job, I didn't want to risk $1200+ in labor costs.

The used motor has potential, but there are horror stories on the forum of people trying to find decent used motors. Often the motors have been miss represented and taken apart more than you'd want.

 

[Khunajawdge]

Well THAT certainly sucks.
The engine has to be designed to last longer than 60K - heck my KZ550 engine is supposedly good for about 80K and that was early '80s technology.

The quick of it is to watch Ebay for an engine - there's one that's been on at least twice with 1600 miles on it and I think he wanted about $1500 plus shipping. Maybe that's an option.

On the other hand, 60K is NOT a long time. It is fewer than 3 valve adjust intervals . .you never got to pay for the third one.

Something is *not right* and Yamaha isn't stepping up - at least they'll do the chain/tensioner replacement. But it really isn't enough. They shoold make a deal for a ring job with you - perhaps offerig to pay a portion, if not all of it.

Sorry to hear. This is NOT good News! Sounds like you got plenty of use out of it before it had any serious issues, but it should have made it to 100K, easily. How/where was your '04 stored over the years? Was it put away wet?

'05 FJR 1300a (44,000 + miles).

 

[user 213]

Sorry to hear. This is NOT good News! Sounds like you got plenty of use out of it before it had any serious issues, but it should have made it to 100K, easily. How/where was your '04 stored over the years? Was it put away wet?
'05 FJR 1300a (44,000 + miles).

Always stored inside a heated garage, except on trips. Usually used a cover on trips. Put away wet? I ride year round and live in Oregon. Yes, I parked it in the garage after rain rides on occasion. I washed the bike a couple of times a year with the hose, but mostly cleaned with Honda spray cleaner or Plexus the rest of the time.

At 20k a year, I'm disappointed that I didn't see more like 150k before seeing this low of compression.

I should add that I'm religious about maintenance. I documented all my oil changes, final drive oil changes, coolant changes, brake fluid changes, etc. I keep a tire log in addition to the maintenance log, and the dealer service log. I used Yamalube and Mobile One MX4T moto specific oil nearly all of the changes. Tried Silkolene once, too $$.

 

[Aviatorkev]

What oil have you been using? Dino or synthetic?

 

[user 213]

What oil have you been using? Dino or synthetic?

Edited above to note that. After 40k I pretty much stuck with synthetic. There were a couple of changes where I used Yamalube 20-40 because I was in a pinch and the dealer is 1/2 a mile from the house. Yamaha or Puralator PureOne filters.

 

[shredder]

I'm ultra sorry to hear about this mess!!!

I'm sure the five star tech checked into other possibilities of leakdown gremlins... like the valves / valve seats / valve seals? I mention this because a buddy of mine had a TL1000R that had a bad leakdown prob that was fixed by having his valves checked........then fixed. Mechanic attributed it to build up on the valves / heads causing a poor seal when closed.

Also, prob not too hard to do a leak down test yourself. reaching the heads is pretty easy and you could verify the readings yourself with a different guage.... sometimes the tools themselves are the culprits. It would seem that a leak down prob that bad would manifest itself with burned oil / blue smoke after idle and severe power loss that would absolutely be noticable to you. I hate to speak of "fixes" when dealing with something that sucks as bad as this must.... but never hurts to give it a check just to be sure!!

Best of luck!

 

[S76]

I think that is bull$^!

Your engine is fine and will run another 50K easily. 3 to 5% leakdown is a rediculous number to use for in service limits. On small piston aircraft engines when we did leakdown tests we put in 80 PSI and it had to maintain 60 PSI. That is 25% and that was considered good. You could make the numbers vary quite a bit by moving the prop and seating the rings against the piston lands. And when you found an engine with more than 25% leakage you could sometimes cure it by tapping on the valves to seat them against the carbon on the seats.

If your not using oil your fine. There was another member here somewhere that had his engine disassembled for the same thing and they found nothing wrong. They blamed it on carbon build up. I would bet money 9 out of 10 bikes out there cannot meet those standards. Also, did they do this test on a hot engine? Most likely not. That alone will make a big difference.

You did say you got alot of miles out of your brakes. That would lead me to believe that you may not be a very aggresive rider. If that's the case you could have some carbon build up on the rings. You could try switching to a high detergent synthetic oil like Rotella. Every engine I put it in it turns black quickly the fist time, meaning it is cleaning where other oils have not. Your engine has a rev limiter, visit it once in a while.

I don't think you dealer is trying to rip you off, I just don't think they know any better. Which is often the case.

Forget the whole thing and go ride.

 

[escapefjrtist]

Something does indeed smell rotten in Denmark here. For a modern engine to have a 60K life expectancy seems very low. It would be interesting for Scooter and BCSP to check their mounts for compression as comparison.

I would assume the dealer oiled the bores and had the throttles wide open when they checked compression, but it might be worth the question.

--G

 

[user 213]

I speculated with the dealer manager and techs that the valves may be responsible for more of the loss in compression than the rings. They confirmed that during the leak down test, mucho air was coming out the oil filler hole, indicating that the rings were also passing air as well as the valves. They also heard air from the air box. I wanted them to add some oil via the spark plug holes and re-test the compression so I had some indication of how much loss was rings Vs valves, but they politely suggested I would be wasting my money. I'll probably do that myself shortly, just to see how much the readings come up. If less than half of the amount below the min. spec, I'll be surprised, judging from what the techs told me.

As to oil, lubricity is lubricity. As long as the oil is getting changed, you're fine. I changed my oil every 5k. US spec is 4k, (mine was still clean then), EU spec is 6200 mi, (10k kms), I split the middle. It's the combustion waste bits that make the oil "bad", not the oil actually "breaking down". You really have to leave oil in a long time to have it break down.

 

[user 213]

I think that is bull$^!
Your engine is fine and will run another 50K easily. 3 to 5% leakdown is a rediculous number to use for in service limits. On small piston aircraft engines when we did leakdown tests we put in 80 PSI and it had to maintain 60 PSI. That is 25% and that was considered good. You could make the numbers vary quite a bit by moving the prop and seating the rings against the piston lands. And when you found an engine with more than 25% leakage you could sometimes cure it by tapping on the valves to seat them against the carbon on the seats.

If your not using oil your fine. There was another member here somewhere that had his engine disassembled for the same thing and they found nothing wrong. They blamed it on carbon build up. I would bet money 9 out of 10 bikes out there cannot meet those standards. Also, did they do this test on a hot engine? Most likely not. That alone will make a big difference.

You did say you got alot of miles out of your brakes. That would lead me to believe that you may not be a very aggresive rider. If that's the case you could have some carbon build up on the rings. You could try switching to a high detergent synthetic oil like Rotella. Every engine I put it in it turns black quickly the fist time, meaning it is cleaning where other oils have not. Your engine has a rev limiter, visit it once in a while.

I don't think you dealer is trying to rip you off, I just don't think they know any better. Which is often the case.

Forget the whole thing and go ride.

Carbon build up is a possibility. And something I intend to explore. The Rotella is a tad thin for my taste, but as you indicate, it is an excellent detergent rated oil, and does exceed the specs from Yamaha.

And believe me, I'm not that shy on using what the engine has to offer. Double down shifts are FUN. I don't whack the throttle all the time, that is true. But I'm still using what's there on a regular basis. Oregon has a 55 mph speed limit... got to watch out for the man, don't cha know.

 

[weekend rider]

I would get it check at another shop and compare readings. They could have worn out gages? Was that a dry test or a wet test?

 

[user 213]

I would get it check at another shop and compare readings. They could have worn out gages? Was that a dry test or a wet test?

Dry test, throttle wide open, air filter removed for the test. They don't normally do a wet test, which I will do shortly, along with another dry test to confirm their readings. I have done many compression tests on auto engines and have good equipment, but I do believe the shop's readings are good. Unlikely their gauges are worn out, and I did discuss accuracy of their equipment with the techs when the boss was not present.

 

[dcarver]

My 06 went in for normal valve check and the 3 star Yama mechanic found 2 cylinders waay low.

Long of short, after a complete top end removal and inspection, a little itty bitty piece of carbon was found between the valve and seat.

I think it was Jestal who said words to the effect that I was babying the motor too much, spend more time in the higher rpm band, and once every wild hair go ahead and run the bike at warp speed to red line, shift quick, do it again, then decelerate with engine braking hard.

The idea is to generate adequate pressure and turbulence to 'free' sticky rings, blow hard as diamonds carbon out. Since the rebuild I regularly run a favorite route of mine (hi way 229, a short twisty MF route) in 2nd gear, just off the rev limiter, acceleration and deceleration.

My local dealer went out of biz, so the next valve adj I traveled over 60 miles to another Yama shop that came highly recommended. The tech who worked the fjr said he had seen *3* Fjr's with carbonized valves.... and that most FJR pilots just don't run the engine hard enough. His initial fix was to pull the plugs then inject some kind of super-solvent into the cylinders for two or three days, drain and replace the engine oil, (solvent working past rings does nasty stuff to the oil) then run the bike like it was stolen. He stated that all 3 'came back to life', with no problems many many miles later.

Here is my original post

and Jestal's great response from that thread..

"WOT and high RPM will usually keep the chambers pretty clean and the rings moving. High RPM alone doesn't do it so riding around in first gear at 9000 at part throttle or revving the engine in neutral is pretty pointless. The motor needs the chamber pressue, heat and extreme turbulence of WOT operation to really clean things up.

One thing common in high performance, compact combustion chambers (like the FJR) is dedicated squish areas..i.e...where the combustion chamber matches the piston shape and the piston comes very close to the cylinder head. So.....the take-away here is that high performance engines with a lot of squish do not like to be babied. They need to be exercised regularily at high RPM and WOT to keep carbon buildup at bay.

Some high RPM probably would, though. Frequent bursts of throttle, however, are best for keeping the chambers clean ......and most fun. Flog it, it needs it. One purposeful maneuver that is relatively safe and benign is to leave the trans in 2nd gear, hold full throttle as the engine runs up to high RPM then let off and let the engine decel or engine brake back to a reasonable RPM then whack it open again and run it...then engine brake down. Do this a dozen times or so. Cleans the chambers, moves the rings around on the piston (high RPM and light throttle will cause the rings to flutter and rotate on the pistons) to keep the ring grooves free and is an excellent way to load and unload the engine to effect breakin when new."

Just an idea - no guarantees..

 

[user 213]

Just an idea - no guarantees..

Thanks for the input. I have done some de-carbonizing routines on other vehicles in the past. Might give it a try on the FeeJer. Might be too late though. Carboned up rings will wear faster too. <_<

 

[BobbyBlue]

Thanks for the info OC, I spose lots of us with...uh...well broken in engines will monitor this thread. Have you noticed a reasonable amount of poor, or poorer, performance ? If not I'd go with S76 and ride the sucker till she blows blue smoke...then maybe add a little BelRay and pretend its a giant RD400. I agree with ya on the oil breakdown...I have a Volvo 240 with 375K on it and I changed the oil sometime in 05....looked like a baboon in a closet...might do it again in 09...she's startin to stink a little, but so am I...Good luck and ride it till it wont go no mo !!!

Bobby

 

[fjrchooser]

Hmm, just what I needed..A valid excuse to give the FJR the business ! :yahoo:

 

[Bungie]

My 2 cents.

It's common in the cruiser world (read big V-twins) to burn oil from the get go and I suspect its so for a fair number of big bore fours. The reason being is they never get broken in properly. The motor gets lugged and lives the majority of its life in the bottom quarter of the rev range.

So whats this got to do with your problem? If the rings never got a good seat during break in, your compression would have been low throughout its life thus far.

Your dealer seems to indicate that the leakdown test is equal measure rings and valve seats. I suspect its a possibility that the rings were an 'existing' condition, and the valves ARE just normal wear.

Just something to ponder, and frankly, impossible to prove with any certainty. I think your getting a bum rap with this and it sounds like the dealer is doing his best to keep you happy despite what Yamaha Corprate is authourizing.

My suggestion is to fix the cam chain issue, and just keep riding it. At least its not ticking!