Sometimes a Ticker doesn't Tick

[NightShine]

Summary

Warning: Gen 1 bikes that are "tickers" do not always audibly tick. Beware.

Details

I took my '05 (bought new and now only 53,000 miles young) into Roseville Yamaha earlier this week for its 2nd valve check, replacement of the Cam chain tensioner and hydraulic lines, and other maintenance. Even though this dealer is a couple of hours drive from my home, I've brought my bike into them the past couple of times on the strength of their service department's specific expertise in matters FJR.

After dropping the bike off, I got a call back several hours later from the service manager, Zac Mickel. They'd done a "blow down test" and compared it to the baseline from the service they performed on the bike last March. "It's down 20 to 30 percent across the board", says Zac.

They strongly suspected worn valve guides, but would have to pull the head to know for sure. As these bikes have gotten older, they've been seeing cases where "tickers" aren't always actually audibly ticking! Yet the valve guides are becoming worn in the same manner - enough so that the valves are not sealing correctly, allowing carbon composites to form and cause further problems.

So the $64,000 questions for Gen 1 bikes now would seem to be not whether you have a "ticker"; but rather, do you have worn valve guides - audibly ticking or not. Also, I can't say I noticed any performance degradation. Perhaps it was merely insidious enough to be below my observation threshold.

The bike has been out of warranty since April, but because this was a slowly progressing problem that started while the bike was under YES warranty, yet had gone undiagnosed by the dealer, Zac got Yamaha to agree to cover the cost of parts as goodwill. I would cover the labor costs. Given the alternative, this seems fair enough to me. It amounts to about a 50/50 cost split.

Now I can see that a manufacturer would naturally want to cap its liability exposure for mechanical issues as the bike fleet ages. And while the additional cost is a sting, it won't break the bank, and I'll have a happier bike with years more riding enjoyment.

I talked with Zac again today. They had pulled the head and the valve guides are indeed worn as they suspected. The bike'll be down for a couple of weeks, but I know it's in good, capable hands, and I'm glad I took the trouble to go further afield to bring the bike into them. I doubt if my local dealer would have caught this problem, nor gone to bat for me with Yamaha.

Note: edited for accuracy.

 

[luvtoride]

Wow, very, very interesting. I figured that we were all looking at Yamaha stepping back as the fleet aged. I had my bike fixed a few years ago. I was at the end of my YES & leaned on it to get my ticker non ticking. Very interesting information here.

 

[wheatonFJR]

ruh roh.

 

[dcarver]

Had a similar conversation with a tech I respect about 6 months ago -

sorry to hear you have a ticker but 50/50 isn't all that bad and soon you'll be back on road again..

 

[Fred W]

Ruh roh is right!

I guess if it isn't ticking then it can't really be called a ticker, now can it? :blink:

Instead we are just looking at possible worn valve guides causing compression loss due to badly sealing exhaust valves. Of course there are other things that could cause leakdown, so we'll have to see what the results are after they finish the job. I recall someone up in the PNW had high leakdown which was blamed on a poorly fitted aircleaner wearing the bores.

I suppose that diagnosing will just be running regular leakdown checks? Do you know if yours exhibited any oil in the headers as the tickers have been reported to? I'm thinking that if the performance difference is subtle and there are no other symptoms, I'd just live with the floppy valves until something more severe happens and you can feel the difference.

Mine is about the same mileage, so this does give me some concern. I do not have a shop and relationship like yours, so I'm sure I would be footing the entire bill, or more likely, doing most of the work myself. If you could relay the bill of materials for this job it would be good to know. At least it isn't as catastrophic as a bad CCT.

 

[FJReady]

Damn. I wish I didn't see this post. I was happy in my ignorance.

 

[ionbeam]

Hmm, lets see... I assume that a "blow down test" is the same as a leak down test, if I'm wrong there is no need to read farther.

With the engine warmed up, the cylinder being tested is at TDC on the compression stroke meaning that the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The LDT is screwed into the spark plug hole. The LDT applies compressed air into the cylinder. The leak gauge will show as a percentage how much compressed air is escaping from the combustion chamber.

If the valves are closed and seated how is air escaping past worn valve guides? This test will tell you how well the valves are seating, the condition of the cylinder walls, the piston (has no holes) and the rings (ding, ding, ding). So, now the shop puts a little oil into the cylinder and runs the LDT again. If leak down rate is reduced you most likely have stuck rings, bad rings or bad cylinder walls. The FJR has a coating on the cylinder walls slightly stronger than superman so it's time to look at the rings. There have been reports of stuck rings in our engines. My engine had stuck rings among a host of other little issues so we replaced the rings because we were already there. If the problem turns out to be stuck rings there are a number of things that should be tried before tearing into the engine. Usually stuck rings will respond well to a number of chemical solutions, err chemical anti-seize products.

This would be a bad time to be wrong...

 

Edit: So, was there any oil in the exhaust headers? This is the Yamaha specified way to diagnose leaking valve guides.

 

[Fred W]

Yeah, I had thought the same thing about the guides being behind the valves. I think what the OP (and shop) were saying is that the loose guides are causing the valves not to seat properly due to misalignment. I thought that valves are pretty much self aligning and would seat and seal even if in loose guides.

A dry / wet leak down test comparison would tell us for sure if it's the ring/bore interface or the top end / valves that is doing the leaking.

 

[ionbeam]

...A dry / wet leak down test comparison would tell us for sure if it's the ring/bore interface or the top end / valves that is doing the leaking.

When doing a leak-down test you can put your ear to the open oil fill hole and listen for leaking air and put a mechanics stethoscope to the exhaust header or an ear to the exhaust pipe and listen for escaping air.

Yamaha Corp. specifies to pull the head pipes and check for oil. I'm pretty sure Yamaha won't listen to the dealer or the owner until this has been done.

Summary

Warning: Gen 1 bikes that are "tickers" do not always audibly tick. Beware.

A man walks into a small crowed bar with a full can of gas and a box of matches... :lol:

 

[Crash Cash]

Damn. I wish I didn't see this post. I was happy in my ignorance.

Actually, I have to say "Damn, a really good dealer there" - color me totally shocked. And jealous.

 

[Fred W]

Damn. I wish I didn't see this post. I was happy in my ignorance.

Actually, I have to say "Damn, a really good dealer there" - color me totally shocked. And jealous.

From our vantage point, yes.

I'd bet that Yamaha corp would feel somewhat differently if they found out. And now it's on the interwebs.

I know this one is very highly regarded by customers. But, how far can one trust a dealership who is willing to lie to their parent company for any reason, even one as seemingly altruistic as this?

 

[NightShine]

Damn. I wish I didn't see this post. I was happy in my ignorance.

Actually, I have to say "Damn, a really good dealer there" - color me totally shocked. And jealous.

From our vantage point, yes.

Hey, after all, a mechanic's got to eat! But Zac seems like an on the level guy. And if he's not, then it's only important that I think he is...

A little more information: I'm not mechanically inclined, so I may not have all of the terms he used correct. I don't know if a blow down test is the same as a leak down test (I was thinking of asking you guys ). What Zac described was that there were carbon deposits preventing the valves from sealing properly. These deposits had also mucked up the piston rings. He suggested two options. The short term one was to apply a gas additive to clean up the carbon deposits and free up the rings. The longer term option was to fix the underlying problem - replacing the worn valve guides with the revised ones. I chose the latter.

As the actual valve guide condition ultimately showed the abnormal wear he suspected, this would seem to validate his recommendation. Perhaps this was a condition merely caught early, and if let continue would have developed the classically audible symptoms. I'll ask about whether they found oil on the exhaust headers, though.

So the matches I brought into the bar may be wet. In which case, one of you guys hold the gas can while I use the side of it to attempt to strike them...

 

[Afast03nNJ]

After reading Ironbeam's post, I'm thinking the dealer is a bit slow and is looking for work during the off season.

 

[Tree Doc]

IIRC, puppychow just went through something like this with his '05 and at the same dealer. I never heard the details, though.

Yes - No? Sam?

 

[James Burleigh]

"Sometimes a ticker doesn't tick." Is that supposed to be funny or sumpin? :glare:

 

[blueman]

Sounds fishy to me. I would get a second opinion. I can recommend another dealer. Some friends of mine have owned a Yamaha dealer for 25 years and my son works their.

 

[wa2fst]

Sounds like you have a pretty good dealer looking to assist you with the issues. Whether it's just selfish for themselves and to fill out their shop for keeping mechanics working during the winter or not...they did assist you...both the dealer and Yamaha. Good on them...glad I bought an FJR.

Do you happen to know what parts are being replaced...the whole head, or just guides...etc?

 

[NightShine]

Sounds like you have a pretty good dealer looking to assist you with the issues. Whether it's just selfish for themselves and to fill out their shop for keeping mechanics working during the winter or not...they did assist you...both the dealer and Yamaha. Good on them...glad I bought an FJR.

Do you happen to know what parts are being replaced...the whole head, or just guides...etc?

I talked with Zac today, and he did confirm that they there was oil at the exhaust ports. I haven't seen the parts list for the job, but my understanding is that the valve guides are the principal component to be replaced.

 

[CISCO]

I was out browsing the forums tonight and see this! Holy cow slow down a sec!

This is Zac from Roseville Yamaha..Our shop is NOT slow, were busy as hell with services and engine jobs. :yahoo:

Niteshine kinda has it right but not quite..Quick and simple to shore this up...

A little background...my own FJR had the same symptom in 2007. Under my YES warranty I removed the head and measured the guides. They were ovaled causing valve seal leakage, causing carbon buildup, causing valve stickage which caused more carbon due to incomplete combustion eventually leading to the valves being held open. I replaced the valves and guides under the YES and it sounds the same now as it did then but runs SOO much better without the goopy carbon buildup on the rings and valves. So in short Ive seen this before..

We found this similar symptom on Niteshines FJR during routine maintenance. Excessive leakdown past the valves. We pulled the exhaust found lots of oily muck, then removed the head to find thick spongy carbon, some of it between the valve and seat. The valve guides are worn slightly oval and out of spec. The valve stems have some scoring and I contacted Yamaha as this seems to have been ongoing and he is just out of his 5 year YES warranty. Yamaha was willing to offer only goodwill towards parts only in order to repair the vehicle and only because he is just out of his YES and it was just in for an adjustment while under the warranty. We replace the exhaust valves, guides, seals and recut the valve seats.

Roseville Yamaha being a Pro Yamaha Specialist dealer gives us more pull to help our customer out. This was a mechanical failure obviously occuring while this bike was under warranty and I pressed the point. This bike was in our shop for valve work (adjust) in April while under warranty, we missed this failure then but caught it now. I will go up to bat for our customers who have the warranty coverage they paid and have failures that occured while under that warranty.

I asked Niteshine if his bike ever made ticking noises. He stated no, however his guides and valve stems show similar wear patterns to the "tickers".

(This sort of guide wear seems to get to a certain point and never progress or get worse, the symptom is not mechanically detrimental in the long term, short of seal leakage and noise). Im pretty sure there are some 120,000 mile FJR's are running around with the same guides and have no idea.

My suggestion for all FJR owners is to run Ring Free or a similar additive to your fuel as a shock treatment every 8000 to 12,000 miles to remove carbon buildup. Im even now suggesting to run the RingFree as a regualr maintenance every 4,000 miles. The stuff works wonders at cleaning up carbon buildup. Weve been using it for years in V-twins to clear up sticky valves.

Hope this answers any questions.