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I had my ticking fixed last spring. Same deal, Yamaha covered parts and machine work, I had to cover labour. They replaced the entire exhaust side, valves, guides and seals I had them do the cam chain and tensioner while they were in there (cheap insurance). All told my bill was right around $1200 if I recall correctly. The guides are NOT cheap. The entire bill with parts and machine work was something like $2400.

I've documented the entire story elsewhere, but in a nutshell, if your bike is out of warranty, you footing the bill. They are no longer covering it as goodwill.

 
Hum, Zac posted while I was posting and I'll add this..

My mechanic said my engine was one of the cleanest engines as far as carbon build up goes he's ever seen. I don't use ring free but run a small battle of Lucas fuel treatment through it in the spring and again mid-summer - over 5 tanks of gas. Well, that and risking my license when the mood hits >:)

 
Yup, thanks for explaining, Zac. Sorry to have cast aspersions your way, but the way it was originally explained left some doubts. Will look into the "Ring Free" additive.

 
Was lookin' at the Boating site TreeDoc forwarded and in the Forum section someone (DonnieB?) asks "Is Chevron Techron similar to Yamaha Ring Free?"

No answer from Sim (the Yamaha dealer providing info about Ring Free).

From what I know, I "think" Techron is very similar in combating engine carbon buildup.

Can anybody verify that?

I use Techron containing fuel almost exclusively, as my fuel of choice for my motorcycles.

 
Instead of ring free...is it an acceptable alternate to spend a few hours between 6 and 9 grand on the tachometer on your favorite twisty road?

 
With the engine warmed up, the cylinder being tested is at TDC on the compression stroke meaning that the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The LDT is screwed into the spark plug hole. The LDT applies compressed air into the cylinder. The leak gauge will show as a percentage how much compressed air is escaping from the combustion chamber.
If you apply compressed air to a cylinder when it's at TDC, what keeps it from being blown to the bottom of its stroke?

 
With the engine warmed up, the cylinder being tested is at TDC on the compression stroke meaning that the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The LDT is screwed into the spark plug hole. The LDT applies compressed air into the cylinder. The leak gauge will show as a percentage how much compressed air is escaping from the combustion chamber.
If you apply compressed air to a cylinder when it's at TDC, what keeps it from being blown to the bottom of its stroke?

Usually putting the bike in 5th and have someone press the rear brake is enough.

 
With the engine warmed up, the cylinder being tested is at TDC on the compression stroke meaning that the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The LDT is screwed into the spark plug hole. The LDT applies compressed air into the cylinder. The leak gauge will show as a percentage how much compressed air is escaping from the combustion chamber.
If you apply compressed air to a cylinder when it's at TDC, what keeps it from being blown to the bottom of its stroke?

Usually putting the bike in 5th and have someone press the rear brake is enough.
I explained to a friend that it wasn't a good idea to hold the crank with a wrench on a V-6 buick while I applied the pressure. He didn't bleed but was black and blue for a long time

 
With the engine warmed up, the cylinder being tested is at TDC on the compression stroke meaning that the intake and exhaust valves are closed. The LDT is screwed into the spark plug hole. The LDT applies compressed air into the cylinder. The leak gauge will show as a percentage how much compressed air is escaping from the combustion chamber.
If you apply compressed air to a cylinder when it's at TDC, what keeps it from being blown to the bottom of its stroke?
I know the answer to that one: The connecting rod!

:p

 
...I took my '05 (bought new and now only 53,000 miles young) into Roseville Yamaha earlier this week for its 2nd valve check, ...got a call back several hours later from the service manager, Zac Mickel. They'd done a "blow down test" and compared it to the baseline from the service they performed on the bike last March. "It's down 20 to 30 percent across the board", says Zac....worn valve guides,
I talked with Zac today, and he did confirm that they there was oil at the exhaust ports.
...my own FJR had the same symptom in 2007. Under my YES warranty I removed the head and measured the guides. They were ovaled causing valve seal leakage, causing carbon buildup, causing valve stickage which caused more carbon due to incomplete combustion eventually leading to the valves being held open. I replaced the valves and guides under the YES and it sounds the same now as it did then but runs SOO much better without the goopy carbon buildup on the rings and valves. So in short Ive seen this before..We pulled the exhaust found lots of oily muck, then removed the head to find thick spongy carbon, some of it between the valve and seat. The valve guides are worn slightly oval and out of spec. The valve stems have some scoring

(This sort of guide wear seems to get to a certain point and never progress or get worse, the symptom is not mechanically detrimental in the long term, short of seal leakage and noise).

My suggestion for all FJR owners is to run Ring Free or a similar additive to your fuel as a shock treatment ...Im even now suggesting to run the RingFree as a regualr maintenance

The stuff works wonders
...I don't use ring free but run a small battle of Lucas fuel treatment
When they get it done you will think you have a new bike because the motor will be making full power again. :yahoo:
If that last comment is true?, then a dyno run will disclose "Loss of Power" (or a simple check of the FJR's top speed [150-ish]).

With enough recorded dyno-runs referenced (or, top-speed runs) -- it could be determined the HP threshhold at which FJR top-end overhaul is required.

Or? -- just run a lot of chemical-stuff all-the-time (maybe Marvel Mystery Oil, too?; or, Carroll Shelby's, "zMAX"?;, or[the old standby] STP?)? :unsure:

All to save the, fragile, FJR motor... :huh: ;)

The discussion begs the question: is valve-guide wear -- normal wear?

If, as Zac suggests, it (valve-guide wear) begins while the FJR is still under warranty -- then maybe ALL FJRs need MamaYama to fix their engines? :blink: :unsure:

An automotive machinist once told me: "All engines can benefit from detailed valve/valve-seat head-work."

 
I talked to my son who works at the local Yamaha Dealer. Ring Free is good stuff. I am going to start running the stuff. How much are you running per tank in your FJR. And should I put that stuff in my cars.

 
I talked with Zac today, and he did confirm that they there was oil at the exhaust ports. I haven't seen the parts list for the job, but my understanding is that the valve guides are the principal component to be replaced.
On mine and others I read about, the Valves (upgraded) should be replaced as well.

 
I talked with Zac today, and he did confirm that they there was oil at the exhaust ports. I haven't seen the parts list for the job, but my understanding is that the valve guides are the principal component to be replaced.
On mine and others I read about, the Valves (upgraded) should be replaced as well.

... We replace the exhaust valves, guides, seals and recut the valve seats.
Too true. My initial description of Roseville Yamaha's diagnosis and repair of the problem was a bit sketchy, as Zac's comments point out.

 
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FWIW, I have worked on all typed of internal combustion engines from two stroke diesels to four stoke model engines and wankels and turbo prop engines, any where from .05 hp to 20,000 hp. I even built a steam engine once, if that matters to anyone at all.

This is true:

If an engine is loosing 20-30% through the valves, you'd be lucky if it would start, and it would run worse than a harley with one plug loose and the other one missing. Not to mention that the exhaust valves should be burnt to a crisp, and the seats probably fire slotted, if not the head its self. If the guides are worn badly enough that the valves are sticking, then the seats and valves should be worn badly enough to warrant replacing or at least grinding as well. Not only that, but on a shim bucket type engine, lateral load on the guides is minimal, and shouldn't cause much oval wear. If it had rocker arms, maybe, but not on an OHC engine. If the guides were that worn, the seals would be shot, the plugs would have white ash deposits on them and there would be a nice billowy puff of blue oil smoke on a cold start after sitting over night, but once again with compression loss like that, it probably wouldn't start.

I know I am new here, but something isn't lining up. Every shop I have ever worked at, you'd get fired on the spot for replacing guides and not replacing or grinding valves and seats. Every shop I have worked at, you would have gotten an ass chewing for running a leak down test on a routine maintenance check, because its a waste of time lining each cylinder up on TDC when a compression test can tell you the same info (minus where the loss is going) in a fraction of the time. So, from a tech's point of view, and if I were working in a shop that this was going on in, I would say someone was adjusting the valve lash and screwed the pooch on getting the sprockets lined up or getting the tensioner in place correctly and bent the valves, and is covering their ass, so they don't have to eat several hours of labor and several hundred dollars of parts.

If I am wrong, a couple measurements with a small hole gauge for the out of round condition of the guides will prove it, and some pictures of the valves and seats as to why they were leaking and not in need of grinding or replacement will prove that. Of course, we have no way of knowing that it isn't a picture of some other engine, so who's to say.

In a nutshell, you don't get a 30% leakddown past the valves with no customer complaint of hard starting or rough running, especially on a 10.8 compression ratio engine. You shouldn't be paying half of anything IMHO.

I'll probably get flamed to small crispy bits for this, but I have been ripped for worse. ;)

 
So, from a tech's point of view, and if I were working in a shop that this was going on in, I would say someone was adjusting the valve lash and screwed the pooch on getting the sprockets lined up or getting the tensioner in place correctly and bent the valves, and is covering their ass, so they don't have to eat several hours of labor and several hundred dollars of parts.
Personally knowing the OP and the Service Manager in question, I'd say there is just about a ZERO percent chance of that. I don't make a living wrenching, but know my way around wrenches, have always done most of my own motorcycle wrenching, and have been riding almost 45 years now. So, I've been around a few mechanics and motorcycle dealerships. I've never found one with as good a service department as Roseville Yamaha, nor many people that are more honest AND helpful than Zac.

The speculation about this being a cover-up for bending the valves due to a timing error is horsehockey, BTW. As has been extremely well documented here in a few valve-piston interference cases on FJRs, the labor and list of parts necessary to repair that catastrophy is considerably more substantial than what went into Nightshine's engine.

As to the carbon issues, I knew about the carbon deposits Zac found in his (second) FJR a while back. (Zac is on his second '05 FJR -- he bought one the same time as Andrew (OrangevaleFJR) and sold it, bought it back and then sold it again around the time that he bought Andrew's FJR after he died (Zac's second FJR). Andrew was famous for putting the cheapest gasoline in his bike that he could -- read: minimal additive packages.)

You can speculate from afar about dishonesty and diagnostic errors as much as you want, but there are a lot of us NorCal forum members who rely upon Zac and Roseville Yamaha's service department, and quite a few of us who know Zac personally. You'd be wrong if you think you can find a single one of us here who will be even minimally persuaded by your erroneous speculation about his character. What he will do is go to bat for the customer with Yamaha to try to get them to pay for repairs under the warranties we paid for. It's a shame that more service managers don't give a rat's ass for their customers in those kinds of disputes. (E.g., in my case, fixing a screw up in paperwork from the dealership I bought my FJR from new.)

Just FWIW.

 
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So, from a tech's point of view, and if I were working in a shop that this was going on in, I would say someone was adjusting the valve lash and screwed the pooch on getting the sprockets lined up or getting the tensioner in place correctly and bent the valves, and is covering their ass, so they don't have to eat several hours of labor and several hundred dollars of parts.
Personally knowing the OP and the Service Manager in question, I'd say there is just about a ZERO percent chance of that. I don't make a living wrenching, but know my way around wrenches, have always done most of my own motorcycle wrenching, and have been riding almost 45 years now. So, I've been around a few mechanics and motorcycle dealerships. I've never found one with as good a service department as Roseville Yamaha, nor many people that are more honest AND helpful than Zac.

The speculation about this being a cover-up for bending the valves due to a timing error is horsehockey, BTW. As has been extremely well documented here in a few valve-piston interference cases on FJRs, the labor and list of parts necessary to repair that catastrophy is considerably more substantial than what went into Nightshine's engine.

As to the carbon issues, I knew about the carbon deposits Zac found in his (second) FJR a while back. (Zac is on his second '05 FJR -- he bought one the same time as Andrew (OrangevaleFJR) and sold it, bought it back and then sold it again around the time that he bought Andrew's FJR after he died (Zac's second FJR). Andrew was famous for putting the cheapest gasoline in his bike that he could -- read: minimal additive packages.)

You can speculate from afar about dishonesty and diagnostic errors as much as you want, but there are a lot of us NorCal forum members who rely upon Zac and Roseville Yamaha's service department, and quite a few of us who know Zac personally. You'd be wrong if you think you can find a single one of us here who will be even minimally persuaded by your erroneous speculation about his character. What he will do is go to bat for the customer with Yamaha to try to get them to pay for repairs under the warranties we paid for. It's a shame that more service managers don't give a rat's ass for their customers in those kinds of disputes. (E.g., in my case, fixing a screw up in paperwork from the dealership I bought my FJR from new.)

Just FWIW.
I wish I could have said it like that Rich :)

Another big + 1 for Zac and Roseville Yamaha from me :yahoo:

 
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