Speeding fine in Olympic Park

[Tenchi]

The cliff notes on what happened:

• I was riding through Olympic National Park (I didn't actually know it was Olympic National Park at the time for various reasons, most of which consisted of, "there was no sign saying, 'Now entering Olympic National Park'") and got pulled over for doing 54 in a 35. Truth be told, I was too busy concentrating on the road to be looking at my speedometer, but that's what he said it was. GPS was turned on, tracking and approximately agrees with his statement.
• The instant his lights went on I pulled over to the side of the road. On further instruction, I proceeded a further half mile down the road to a pullout.
• I remember someone said say as little as possible and remember exactly what was said, so I followed that advice. When he said, "I'm pulling you over for 54 in a 35 zone." I responded "okay" to acknowledge what was said. He asked if I had any weapons, I replied "I think I have a small pocket knife" which he replied that it was ok. When he asked for license and registration, the only thing I said was, "I'm not sure if this counts as registration, but it's all I have" and handed him the green form with my vehicle details on it and my insurance papers too (which he didn't want). Beyond that he asked if I had any questions, I asked him what the correct procedure for pulling over in that situation was (apparently what I did was ok) and he asked me if I was going back to Seattle - I replied yes, to which he said, "Don't get wet".
• The fine is $150, but as it was in a national park it's not under the RCW's but 36 CFR 4.21 c), aka "do not speed in national parks", for Hwy 101. It all happened here.

Long story short, I don't care that much about the fine but the insurance implications and it going on my record concern me a lot. That it's not a Washington State fine also confuses me a little. I'm pretty sure I'm hung either way - male, under 25, newly licensed all looks pretty bad - but I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I've already sent off an email to Mucklestone just in case she can handle this but will follow it up with a call on Tuesday or Wednesday if they don't contact me first.

What would you oh voices of wisdom do in my situation?

 

[Kromm]

Do they have Traffic School in Wa?

If so, Pay the fine and opt for the school which will keep it off your record for Insurance.

 

[Wolfhound]

Do tickets in NPs get you points or just fine ? I thought it was just the fine . . . .

 

[dcarver]

Bummer, Tenchi. Sorry to hear about the ticket.

Making matters worse, I have no words of wisdom.

Just empathy. :close_tema:

 

[El Toro]

Do they have Traffic School in Wa? If so, Pay the fine and opt for the school which will keep it off your record for Insurance.

+1

If Traffic School is an option, it should get out of any points or insurance ramifications. Here in Tennessee if you take the Traffic School option, you don't even have to pay the fine. You just pay for the Traffic School, which costs about as much as the fine. Generally Tennessee lets you do Traffic School if your record has been clean for 12 months and if the amount over the limit is 25 mph or less.

 

[Tenchi]

Do they have Traffic School in Wa? If so, Pay the fine and opt for the school which will keep it off your record for Insurance.

+1

If Traffic School is an option, it should get out of any points or insurance ramifications. Here in Tennessee if you take the Traffic School option, you don't even have to pay the fine. You just pay for the Traffic School, which costs about as much as the fine. Generally Tennessee lets you do Traffic School if your record has been clean for 12 months and if the amount over the limit is 25 mph or less.

Thanks guys, that would be the ideal solution.

Apparently in Washington, there is a points system, but it's so utterly confusing that it's best described as 4 moving violations in 1 year, 5 moving violations over 2 years (?? how on earth is that points?!). Nothing is said about where the fine is incurred, just that it is a fine.

There is also a traffic school for Washington, featuring a defensive driving course. To me, if the chance to educate and correct at an early age is available, then that would be much better than just fining them (after all, this way you get to fine them AND make them sit a course). But then again, I'm a little biased right now :-/.

 

[Bugnatr]

Tenchi, the worst part is you are a male from down under and we don't take kindly to strangers speeding through our parks.

Just kiddin'

Seems all the parks I go through are speed traps. Every ranger has radar and they love to use it.

Would a radar detector have helped?

Let us know what happens when getting a ticket in a Nat. Park. Good luck!

 

[painman]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I noticed you didn't say if the speed limit was posted. And you did say you didn't notice any signage that you were in a NP. Also, not trying to weasel out or ignorance involved, but if you go to court and try and fight it, there is a chance the officer will not show and you may get it dismissed. And or the judge might be understanding that you were riding safely for the conditions and that if no traffic was around could benefit as well. Call the court and find out exactly what options are available for that area you were in. Might surprise you. PM. <><

 

[jekirby]

Maybe you could take notes from this guy.

 

[Tenchi]

Maybe you could take notes from this guy.

Oh... Geez... ok, notes taken. On what not to do. Somehow I don't think my Aussie charm will work.

Or will it...?

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I noticed you didn't say if the speed limit was posted. And you did say you didn't notice any signage that you were in a NP. Also, not trying to weasel out or ignorance involved, but if you go to court and try and fight it, there is a chance the officer will not show and you may get it dismissed. And or the judge might be understanding that you were riding safely for the conditions and that if no traffic was around could benefit as well. Call the court and find out exactly what options are available for that area you were in. Might surprise you. PM.

Speed limit was posted at various places and clearly visible from memory. Signage of the national park was limited to sign saying Olympic Park and an arrow perpendicular to the passage of travel I was taking, way back and I think pointing to some sort of trail. It was roughly here. Since the sign said that Olympic Park was to the right, and I was going left, I thought I was fine.

I intend to "fight" it and will hire a lawyer to articulate it better than I can, but if the punishment was to fit the crime fine + traffic school would be a suitable outcome. I'm not saying I didn't deserve it. If the ranger had simply said, "Son, you're going too quick on these roads for my liking, I don't want to be the one picking up the pieces and delivering bad news on a Thanksgiving weekend" it would have been more than enough for me.

Riding safely for the conditions - absolutely. The tires I have are a harder compound than most street bikes so in grooved tarmac that they had on the corners of 101, combined with wet roads but no rain, there was less grip than normal (although the temperatures in the area were way too high for any chance of black ice). In front of me there was a white vehicle that disappeared into the distance around a quarter to a half mile ahead (was probably the park ranger to be honest, only someone with great familiarity on the roads could move that quick); other than that there was little traffic around - in the 4 minute space between stopping, waiting for the park ranger to approach me and proceeding down to the next turnout, only one car came near us from the opposite direction. In the entire 10-15 minutes I waited for him to process everything, probably 8 cars passed us in total in both directions.

Mentally, I was having a pretty bad weekend so I wasn't in the mood to take risks unnecessarily, just wanted to get out of the cold of the mountains and go home before nightfall when it would get colder and more dangerous with the animals running around and fatigue from exposure. As a side note, Murphy's law kicked my butt yesterday - looking at the GPS logs that was the exact fastest point of the entire trip for the given speed limit .

One last question... if you intend to fight the ticket, do you just not pay it or do you have to notify them somehow you intend to fight it?

 

[Geezer]

One last question... if you intend to fight the ticket, do you just not pay it or do you have to notify them somehow you intend to fight it?

Every ticket I ever got had a section on it where you either plee guilty or not guilty. One may have also had 'no contest' on it. If you want to gpo to court you plee not guilty and you will receive an invitation to court.

I believe a ticket in a national park carries a hefty fine but does not show up on your driving record nor provide points of any sort. Before you spend money on an attorney you should call the clerk for the jurisdiction. There should be a phone number on the ticket. A couple of phone calls could resolve your issue without having to get an attorney or go to court.

 

[Tenchi]

One last question... if you intend to fight the ticket, do you just not pay it or do you have to notify them somehow you intend to fight it?

Every ticket I ever got had a section on it where you either plee guilty or not guilty. One may have also had 'no contest' on it. If you want to gpo to court you plee not guilty and you will receive an invitation to court.

I believe a ticket in a national park carries a hefty fine but does not show up on your driving record nor provide points of any sort. Before you spend money on an attorney you should call the clerk for the jurisdiction. There should be a phone number on the ticket. A couple of phone calls could resolve your issue without having to get an attorney or go to court.

If what you say is true, then I will gladly pay the fine.

As a side note, the equivalent speeding fine is $700 in West Australia.

 

[HotRodZilla]

If I remember right, I think citations issued by park service officers in Natl. parks are some type of civil code as opposed to traffic code if written by a state officer. Also, your speed doesn't really sound high enough to meet most reporting limits I have seen. I would call your state's MVD and see what they say about reporting the cite to your insurance. If it don't get reported, $150 isn't really all that bad.

 

[L2M]

Your question got me wondering so I Googled around for a bit and turned this up:

https://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30622

Sounds more difficult to dismiss than a comparative state ticket, but I didn't find anything saying that a Federal ticket won't impact insurance rates.

Edited to add:

Found a quick answer stating that the ticket on Federal land will impact insurance rates.

https://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_you_get_insur...a_national_park

I'll have to watch my speed more closely next time I'm in the parks.

 

[S76]

I believe a ticket in a national park carries a hefty fine but does not show up on your driving record nor provide points of any sort. Before you spend money on an attorney you should call the clerk for the jurisdiction. There should be a phone number on the ticket. A couple of phone calls could resolve your issue without having to get an attorney or go to court.

Words of wisdon here, no, not wisdom, experience better fits. I got 65 in a 45 on the Blue Ridge which was a national park area, and passing in a no passing zone a year later same circumstances. Neither showed up on my record because its a national park thing.

Just pay the fine and you will be fined.

 

[jekirby]

If you are fortunate this will follow the same path as an out-of-state ticket. Tickets not received in your home state (yes I know this was, but it was federal) frequently do not get picked up by your home state and thus insurance company. It was explained to me that traffic violations need to be communicated to your state DMV and that it is not always a priority by the citing state/locality. An agent long ago told me that the company has to have a reason to check your record and then pick up on any violations and that there was no (20 years ago) mechanism to automatically pick up on any. Accidents affect you immediatly because you involve your insurance company. YMMV

Off topic, but I was on a church board and during hiring a new staff member found out that there are some criminal charges that do not follow you from state to state. Background checks do not always turn up, well, your background.

 

[Tenchi]

Update on this: Mucklestone can't handle it because it's federal, and couldn't suggest anyone that could. I'll give the people at the CMV and the DMV a call, see what they say before weighing up my options.

 

[El Toro]

1. Don't call your insurance company to ask about how they handle this. Let them find out through their normal channels, which as others point out, may never happen.

2. Don't make a "Federal Case Out Of It." If the ticket accurately reflects what you were doing, fighting about it makes you look like an A#@hole.

3. If you go to the court, if its like State court and the officer doesn't show up, it will probably be dismissed. I went to court once on a speeding ticket, and when I got there the judge was giving anyone who would plead guilty "Traffic School" so I didn't bother to argue about the ticket. I just signed up for Traffic School and spent a couple of hours with a Viet Nam Vet who wanted to tell stories. Pretty simple, plus the Traffic School was right by one of our better steak houses, so I had an excuse to get a good steak as part of the deal. My other experience with Traffic School was even better. We heard one story about watching out for folks trying to commit suicide by driving in the wrong lane, and then we were dismissed to the Town Square for free Brats, Christmas Cookies, and Caroling... no free beer though, so you can't expect to get everything.

 

[Tenchi]

1. Don't call your insurance company to ask about how they handle this. Let them find out through their normal channels, which as others point out, may never happen.
2. Don't make a "Federal Case Out Of It." If the ticket accurately reflects what you were doing, fighting about it makes you look like an A#@hole.

3. If you go to the court, if its like State court and the officer doesn't show up, it will probably be dismissed. I went to court once on a speeding ticket, and when I got there the judge was giving anyone who would plead guilty "Traffic School" so I didn't bother to argue about the ticket. I just signed up for Traffic School and spent a couple of hours with a Viet Nam Vet who wanted to tell stories. Pretty simple, plus the Traffic School was right by one of our better steak houses, so I had an excuse to get a good steak as part of the deal. My other experience with Traffic School was even better. We heard one story about watching out for folks trying to commit suicide by driving in the wrong lane, and then we were dismissed to the Town Square for free Brats, Christmas Cookies, and Caroling... no free beer though, so you can't expect to get everything.

Update on this: I just called the CVB to find out how they handle it. The verdict is that in Western Washington fines in national parks go on your driving record. If it was in Eastern Washington however, the fine would NOT go on the driving record. Talk about confusing.

So it looks like Traffic school is my last hope