Strange starting problem

[BentAero]

I'm having a strange starting problem that I can't find any info on. It's been occuring for 1.5 years now, and no one I've talked to can figure it out. Bike is Gen II, now has 42k.

If the bike sits for 2 weeks or more, it doesn't want to start. (Don't give me a hard time about letting it sit; I always have at least one other bike to ride!) And no, the battery isn't the problem. One time it had been sitting nearly a month and my tester showed the battery still had 13.2 volts. It usually has 13.7-13.8 volts.

When you turn the key, gauges react normal, fuel pump sounds like it cycles normal. The engine cranks normal speed, but sounds really weird like it's only firing on 3 or even 2 cylinders. -or like one or more valves are stuck wide-open and it has no compression.

If you give it throttle repeatedly as you hit the starter button, it will sound as if it's 'picking up' another cylinder, then another, until it finally starts and runs for 1 or 2 seconds. Keep whacking the throttle as you hit the starter and eventually it starts and runs rough for 10-30 seconds, then smooths out and runs like nothing ever happened!

If you start it roughly every 10 days or so, it starts and runs perfectly normal like the day it was new.

It will do this in the heat of the summer, or the dead of winter.

I've tried cheap gas, good (no ethanol) gas, adding isopropyl alchohol to remove any water, and Seafoam just because. Nothing makes any difference.

It seems to me like a fuel or sensor problem, but why does it only surface after the bike has not been started in a while? If you start it regularly, it exhibits absolutely no problems.

The mega-dealer down the road is stumped and just says, "bring it to us again after it's sat for two weeks."

Any of you heard of this one?

 

[03HiYoSilver]

BA,

One of my problems with the #4 cylinder fouling, eventually was found out to be a defective Throttle Body unit. Everyone, including the Area Supervisor, refused to believe that this could cause any problems. Well, after a 1.5 years of part replacing, the Yamaha Service Rep. and I ordered the Throttle Body Assy from Japan and had sitting in the warehouse until our next meeting.

Then when the last go around did not work, I said let's try the Throttle Body Assy. sitting in the warehouse and see what happens.

You know what happened.... the problem was solved at last.

It may or may not be your problem but could be. It costs about $800 then and it was for me, paid for by YES.

Good Luck on your fix... you have done all the things I have done as well.

P.S. We even bought new injectors before the unit and this did not work either. It was a very rare situation with little history to back it up.

 

[SLK50]

Sounds like a weak battery. Are you using a battery tender or maintainer?

When the problem occurs again, try jump starting it. I bet it will start right up.

The battery may be just weak enough to keep the coils from fully energizing.

 

[RsvlFeej]

Did you run the bike for a minute or so after adding the SeaFoam or iso-alcohol to make sure the whole fuel system had treated gas, not just the tank?

I can't get to them for some reason, but there were several old threads (my search results only gave me the last year's threads and the ones I'm thinking about are more like 4-5 years ago) about needing the throttle wfo to get the bike to start and then having it run rough under certain conditions. Seems the consensus was: 1)FJR doesn't like to sit for very long, 2)FJR doesn't want to start if the engine was shut off before being fully warmed up the last time it was run, or 3)FJR will exhibit the same rough starting if it's hot and the bike is a California model. As you're experiencing, the 'fix' is WFO throttle and letting it run rough until it smooths out.

All that said, 03HiYoSilver found and solved an electrical gremlin that had several amazingly sharp mechanics absolutely baffled, so whatever he says packs a lot of weight with me...

 

[fljab]

I can't get to them for some reason, but there were several old threads (my search results only gave me the last year's threads and the ones I'm thinking about are more like 4-5 years ago) about needing the throttle wfo to get the bike to start and then having it run rough under certain conditions. Seems the consensus was: 1)FJR doesn't like to sit for very long, 2)FJR doesn't want to start if the engine was shut off before being fully warmed up the last time it was run, or 3)FJR will exhibit the same rough starting if it's hot and the bike is a California model. As you're experiencing, the 'fix' is WFO throttle and letting it run rough until it smooths out.

This is a timely thread as I just experienced the same problem. I've been having some surgeries and as a result the bike sat for ~3 months until a couple of days ago when I wanted to start it and check everything before todays "Central Florida Ride" detailed in another post.

I have never had any issues with starting, but this time I cranked and cranked, it would sorta catch then nothing. I finally held it WFO and it caught some then more, ran real rough and finally cleared out. And, it was fine all day today.

Mine isn't a California model, but everything else followed your post above.

 

[madmike2]

Historically, as Patrick said, if an FJR has been started and shut down before the engine completes the warm up cycle (up to temperature, cold idle returned to normal, etc.) some have had the experience as you are saying. Their bike will not want to start and requires the throttle being held wide open.

Whether mechanical or electrical control, it is as the throtles or enriching circuit is "stuck" in such a manner that the bike acts like it is flooded.

It happened to me when we had a ride planned and I started the bike the night before and shut it down to early. The next morning it wouldn't start. Doh!

This does not sound like what BentAero is experiencing in FL. It sounds as if he rides the bike and parks it then has trouble 2 weeks later. UNLESS he's starting it to move it and not allowing the complete warm-up cycle completion.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Oddly enough, I too, am having the same HOT hard start problems during the last 2 days after bike's fully warmed up (have not run in about a month). While cold, just bump the starter - no probs. Just put in a Top of the line Yuasa battery a couple of months ago and it is always on a trickle charger when not in flying duty.

So if I find out something, I'll let you know. This is the first time in all the years of ownership where this has become an issue.

It may be the ODD gas/moisture giving us gremlins after 2-3 years of this ethanol fiasco.

 

[wfooshee]

Ooh, HiYo. I'm sure you remember my starter thread about August '09, wherein the bike would not start when hot. Acted like weak battery, cranked poorly, but would start OK if it sat for at least 15 minutes. Replacement battery made no difference. This made fuel stops a real pain; they always became snack stops, find-a-magazine-stand stops, whatever.

Mine was a bad starter, drew mongo amps when cranking, mongo squared if it hand't had time to cool.

Nothing to do with the OP's problem, but it might be something you want to think about. See if you can get a reading on current draw while cranking, and see if it ain't real high, like mine was.

As for the OP, sounds sure as poop like it's flooding, but it's also possible you've got a gunked-up fuel pump, not getting fuel pressure until it starts spinning up like it's s'posed to, which takes longer the longer it sits.

Next time you leave the bike sitting for 2 weeks, take the key and turn the ignition on every couple of days without starting the bike. That will cycle the fuel pump.

It will either be fine after 2 weeks, because the pump never sat still long enough to gum up, or it'll be worse than ever because keeping the fuel system pressurized allowed possible leaky injectors to drip into the intake (although I would expect drippy ful to evaporate and clear pretty well.)

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Wfooshee,

From what you say....I think it is right on the money. During these times of dismay, one tends to forget those little Pearls of Wisdom.

Thanks for the reply...hopefully the weather will break a little so this won't be much of a problem. Fingers Crossed.

All the Best!

 

[BentAero]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm not one to start the bike for just a minute or two and shut it off -then leave it for an extended period of time. I don't run the Battery Tender Jr. constantly, just every other week or so in the winter. Despite that, I've had this starting problem occur when the charger has been on it for the entire time it was 'sitting', and still had the issue with a full charge.

This weird problem is more of the nature of 'I rode it all day long and it was perfect, parked the bike when I got home, and the next time I tried to start it, this problem occured.' It's happened 5 or 6 times with no apparent common denominator as to usage, fuel, or weather.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

BA,

...well don't feel bad, I too am going through the same situation that is Only Happening to me after it has been running and fully warmed up. As I said, this is the first time in my 6 years of ownership this problem has arose.

This is with a New Battery, and Always on a Tender. Wfooshee suggested during times of more than week or 2 of Non Usage to Cycle the Fuel Pump by turning the Key on But Not Start, which I have not done yet. IF you do want to cycle start the bike, let it get up to at least 2-3 Bars (GenI) before turning off as to not foul out the plugs.

As soon as the weather permits some regular cycle usage, other than a ADV, I will report if I find out what causes this mystery.

P.S. Patience is not one of my virtues!

 

[RaYzerman19]

Back to the ethanol question, ethanol is hydroscopic and will attract water. It should dissolve it in theory, but there is water in fuel. There is always water at the bottom of gas station tanks, which they are supposed to monitor. Do you always get it at the same place and do they monitor and correct the water levels in their underground tanks? Do you fill up anytime you see the tanker truck there or has just left... it could be that water in the fuel finally settles to the bottom where the fuel pickup is. When you first crank it, the line could have water in it, and the engine won't start on water in all the injectors. Using WOT may keep the engine going enough to eventually purge the water.

This of course, just another possibility, notwithstanding electrical issues could also exist as posted.

If this is water and a consistent problem every two weeks, I would think it should be a problem after a week as well. You could add a little methyl hydrate and/or stir up the contents of your gas tank before you start it and pump the water into the line. Seafoam is basically naptha and isopropanol, but for water, methyl hydrate (gas line antifreeze, Heet) works quick. Be careful not to use too much.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Back to the ethanol question, ethanol is hydroscopic and will attract water. It should dissolve it in theory, but there is water in fuel. There is always water at the bottom of gas station tanks, which they are supposed to monitor. Do you always get it at the same place and do they monitor and correct the water levels in their underground tanks? Do you fill up anytime you see the tanker truck there or has just left... it could be that water in the fuel finally settles to the bottom where the fuel pickup is. When you first crank it, the line could have water in it, and the engine won't start on water in all the injectors. Using WOT may keep the engine going enough to eventually purge the water.

This of course, just another possibility, notwithstanding electrical issues could also exist as posted.

If this is water and a consistent problem every two weeks, I would think it should be a problem after a week as well. You could add a little methyl hydrate and/or stir up the contents of your gas tank before you start it and pump the water into the line. Seafoam is basically naptha and isopropanol, but for water, methyl hydrate (gas line antifreeze, Heet) works quick. Be careful not to use too much.

RayZ,

Yep, this too, is on my radar. This is why I mentioned in earlier posts, I almost always keep the Fuel level above the 1/4 Tank level with Regular usage of Tier 1 Gas. So I did add an OZ of SeaFoam a couple of weeks ago as preventative maint. and may have broke some stuff up.

That is why I am sooo surprised with all this proactivity one still could have some Ethanol side effects. It does Accelerate the Breakdown of Fuel in no less than 2 weeks, so I have read. Perhaps, based on others having almost the identical situations, this may be very well related to the extended use of the BeLoved Ethanol fuel mandated in '07. (Thanks for the freedom of choice offered to us with this matter.)

I'll let you know how things go when I get a chance to Run a Couple of Back to Back Tanks with less than 2 week fuel. IF something comes up sooner... I'll share it.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Some Ethanol Facts...

Additionally, ethanol is a very effective solvent, and has a tendency to dissolve old coatings of varnish and dirt in existing fuel systems. This can lead to plugged fuel filters, and other mechanical problems.

The added amounts of particles associated with ethanol fuel may warrant upgrading filter systems. Many engineers are now recommending that boats using ethanol fuel need to use 10 micron filters. Pre-E-10 systems will likely be using 28 micron filters. Manufacturers such as Yamaha have been quick to respond to ethanol fuel use by introducing replacement 10 micron filters.

The corrosive nature of ethanol can affect fuel lines and other components, causing them to crack and fail. Many older boats will require replacement of all fuel hoses and possibly other system components.

While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.

This event is called "phase separation". Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity.

Fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.

https://www.daybreakfishing.com/ethanol-fuel.html

https://www.distill.com/World-Fuel-Ethanol-A&O-2004.html

https://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.htm

https://www.fjrforum.com/forum//index.php?s=&showtopic=103595&view=findpost&p=411264

Perhaps we can request an Ethanol Diag Code for these events.... until then...?

 

[03HiYoSilver]

Update....& Getting Closer...

Just decided to add 1 OZ/Gallon of Seafoam to the FJR. After shaking the SeaFoam around the tank, decided to warm it up to a couple of Bars (GenI) to circulate the newly added SeaFoam.

Started up Cold immediately, waited 'til 2 Bars, turn off, then Started Again...'lil delay and the Yellow Engine light Flashed On. Then did this again While Turning the Handlebars, this made the Hot Start Faster and hear some little clicks. Parallelling the Yellow Light.

Sooo, this leads me to believe I need to Check the Iginition Wires/Switch (Never Done but added Brodies Relay) to divert the load. So more than likely we have some LOOSE/Faulty Connections along these lines that need further investigation.

We'll see where this investigation leads... hopefully this Next Storm will allow me a good Excuse and Spare Time.

(The Fun part of the last 2 days of cold weather riding, everytime I wanted to shift, the Front Wheel wanted to keep launching up... had a heck of time keeping it down... benefits of cold compressed air)

 

[BentAero]

FWIW, I don't commute on the FJR. (booooorriiing) Meaning, when I ride it, I'm out for the entire day, weekend, or weeks at a time, so I rarely buy gas at the same place.

Remember in the old days when a needle would leak at the seat of a carb and it would flood the engine with raw gas when sitting? Someone mentioned leaky fuel injectors earlier. Is it possible that an injector is dripping fuel into a cylinder? Can they leak like a needle/seat?

I'm not leaning toward the enthanol thing for the main reason that when you hit the starter button, this problem is instantanious. There is no doubt in your mind within the first crank revolution that something is really wrong. How would the gasoline that is trapped within the fuel line between the fuel pump and the injectors deteriorate within three weeks? It ran perfect when I parked it...

Jeff Ashe is coming over soon and were going to do some heavy maintenance. I think I'll leave it untouched just so he can experience this. The dealer thinks I'm crazy, so maybe I can get a 2nd witness with Jeff.

 

[03HiYoSilver]

BA,

I am leaning to a electrical situation now since when I turn the handlebar position, it seems to affect the starting. I could have a dirty or when Hot Inginition Switch... not getting full Duty.

(Sooo, this leads me to believe I need to Check the Iginition Wires/Switch (Never Done but added Brodies Relay) to divert the load. So more than likely we have some LOOSE/Faulty Connections along these lines that need further investigation.)

So when the weather gives me a break a few days, I will dig into it.

Let me know what you and Jeff find out if you beat me to it.

 

[RaYzerman19]

I'm not leaning toward the enthanol thing for the main reason that when you hit the starter button, this problem is instantanious. There is no doubt in your mind within the first crank revolution that something is really wrong. How would the gasoline that is trapped within the fuel line between the fuel pump and the injectors deteriorate within three weeks? It ran perfect when I parked it...

The theory is that when you turn the key and the fuel pump cycles to fill the line to the required pressure with the stuff from the bottom of your tank, it could be water. When the engine spins over, the injectors cycle open and probably the bit of fuel (with water mixed or behind it) that was in the line may not be enough to start a cold engine. Of course, you could be right that it is something else entirely.

 

[Ignacio]

the main reason that when you hit the starter button, this problem is instantanious. There is no doubt in your mind within the first crank revolution that something is really wrong.

Taking that specific point in context I wonder if it's not the dreaded FJR Brain Fart syndrome that we've talked about a few times on this forum. I've had it happen three times to where I haven't run the bike for a while and when I hit the starter in the first 1/2 a second I know it just doesn't sound quite right.....and after a couple seconds not a hint it's going to kick over.

First time I had to pound away at the starter in 10-20 second burst trying both full and no throttle and it finally kicked after about a minute or so of starting.

Second time I actually wore the battery out after a minute or two, recharged, wore the battery out again, and it finally kicked over sputtering and lit up....as I was on a slow zero to full throttle turn.

This third time the bike sat for about 2 months and knew it again as I hit the starter. It just seemed a slightly higher pitch and a little faster than usual. I charged the battery and kept the starter on...and this time the sweet spot of it firing seemed to be slowly between zero and 1/3 throttle.

Warchild opines it's the rings freezing in place and compression being down. That would fit with the pitch and speed of the starter being different.

Not and expert and haven't verified the cause, but after 3 tries I know it will light consistently by running that starter until it starts.