Stumble, stall, hard starting... TBS?

[chivvalry]

Best solution for those little clips is to throw them as far as you can and never worry about them again. Those are vacuum caps. What possible good can the clips serve when the vacuum is trying to suck the caps in?
And before someone mentions a vacuum cap being blown off of their 1975 Triumph Bonneville (or some such) back in the day, when was the last time you heard your FJR backfire?

I kinda figured I wasn't going to miss them too much for that exact reason... however, with my Two Bros pipes on I do get a little rumbly popping on a hard decel... it sounds good but honestly I really think I would be just as happy with quieter pipes. Another legacy of the original owner.

 

[Fred W]

Rumbley pops are in the exhaust and won't blow your vacuum caps off. They are probably evident because you still have the PAIR plumbing intact (the exhaust recycling pipes you mentioned that were in the way for reinstalling the vacuum caps). What they actually do is inject fresh air in the exhaust stream to help the unburnt gasses ignite in the cats. Pop! You can get rid of most of the pops by blocking off the PAIR.

Before you condemn the PC, go ahead and load it with a zero map and see what happens. Maybe it's just that your current map is FUBAR?

 

[chivvalry]

I did reload a new map but not a zero so I'm not thrilled with trying it again. If you really think it's worth it then I will... but... Honestly I'm getting a little shy of having her stall out on me when I try and pull out of the driveway... It's a bit of an "oh ****" moment even when I am half expecting it. It seems to happen exactly at the wrong moment (right when I start turning left under acceleration) and I end up struggling to keep from dropping the bike.

Also, I just pulled up the installation instructions on the power commander site and see exactly how to pull it out now.

 

[chivvalry]

Ugh. Looking at the tech support form it asks for a zero map check. Guess I'm stuck doing it.

 

[chivvalry]

Loaded zero map... did not stall pulling out of driveway... did same route as before and while in the parking lot she did stall once. But I had to work at it a bit.. tweak the throttle and let off really quick... rev a bit then let off quick... starting pulling off and then she stalled. And, no, it's NOT bad clutch control! I can't get it to stall without the PCIII connected doing the exact same things.

Bike seemed to really like the zero map other than that... she felt like she was pulling stronger than with the PCIII disconnected. I dunno, maybe I've just lost all perspective at this point.

So... with zero map it seems staling conditions are much less worse... but not gone... yet bike seems to be 'stronger' than without PCIII. What does that mean?

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Perhaps the black negative wire has some not visible cut..?!You said that with the PC disconnected the bike pulls stronger..!It sounds not normal..The zero map is the stock bike map in the ECU.Have you check or setting the throttle position values?Perhaps the PC can't see the throttle position for a reason..Click in the last title:how to set the throttle position values.

https://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=PCIIIUSB

 

[floorman67]

Thanks for all the great information. I feel I should add to this conversation as I have a similar experience today with my FJR. I left to run a few errands on my 2005 today and get a few turns in while doing said errands. I took a loop I ride sometimes and the bike performed as usual. I came back home, had lunch and an hour later, left again on the bike. The bike turned off when I left the driveway and I chalked it up to user error, re-started with the clutch pulled in and continued for about 50 feet and it turned off again. I tried starting it several times on the side of the road and it would start and idle, but as soon as I turned the throttle off of idle, it would shut off. If I really got on it, it responded as usual but would shut off if I released the throttle. I pushed it home and started trying to figure it out. If I got the engine up above 3000, it would run what seemed pretty normal to me. I was thinking throttle position sensor must be going bad. I checked it with the diagnostics on board and it was smooth as could be. I decided to disable the power commander 3 and it now works perfectly! Anyone else experienced this? I didn't put the power commander on the bike, it was there when I got it and since I've never had any problems, I never have messed with it. I don't know what I need to program it.

Thanks for all the great information. I feel I should add to this conversation as I have a similar experience today with my FJR. I left to run a few errands on my 2005 today and get a few turns in while doing said errands. I took a loop I ride sometimes and the bike performed as usual. I came back home, had lunch and an hour later, left again on the bike. The bike turned off when I left the driveway and I chalked it up to user error, re-started with the clutch pulled in and continued for about 50 feet and it turned off again. I tried starting it several times on the side of the road and it would start and idle, but as soon as I turned the throttle off of idle, it would shut off. If I really got on it, it responded as usual but would shut off if I released the throttle. I pushed it home and started trying to figure it out. If I got the engine up above 3000, it would run what seemed pretty normal to me. I was thinking throttle position sensor must be going bad. I checked it with the diagnostics on board and it was smooth as could be. I decided to disable the power commander 3 and it now works perfectly! Anyone else experienced this? I didn't put the power commander on the bike, it was there when I got it and since I've never had any problems, I never have messed with it. I don't know what I need to program it.

 

[Hornet Pilot]

Yup, your PC is FUBAR! I had the exact same symptons and returned the PC to the factory and they tested it ($25) and confirmed that one of the IC's was bad. They offered me a 'fair deal' on a new PC-3 and that is what I am running now. With this mode of failure the PC-3 fails to keep all the proper values of the map you have loaded into its memory. Don't bother messing with it. just R&R the unit and you'll be good to go if you want to continue using the PC-3.

 

[floorman67]

Thanks for all the great information. I feel I should add to this conversation as I have a similar experience today with my FJR. I left to run a few errands on my 2005 today and get a few turns in while doing said errands. I took a loop I ride sometimes and the bike performed as usual. I came back home, had lunch and an hour later, left again on the bike. The bike turned off when I left the driveway and I chalked it up to user error, re-started with the clutch pulled in and continued for about 50 feet and it turned off again. I tried starting it several times on the side of the road and it would start and idle, but as soon as I turned the throttle off of idle, it would shut off. If I really got on it, it responded as usual but would shut off if I released the throttle. I pushed it home and started trying to figure it out. If I got the engine up above 3000, it would run what seemed pretty normal to me. I was thinking throttle position sensor must be going bad. I checked it with the diagnostics on board and it was smooth as could be. I decided to disable the power commander 3 and it now works perfectly! Anyone else experienced this? I didn't put the power commander on the bike, it was there when I got it and since I've never had any problems, I never have messed with it. I don't know what I need to program it.

 

[chivvalry]

Yup, your PC is FUBAR! I had the exact same symptons and returned the PC to the factory and they tested it ($25) and confirmed that one of the IC's was bad. They offered me a 'fair deal' on a new PC-3 and that is what I am running now. With this mode of failure the PC-3 fails to keep all the proper values of the map you have loaded into its memory. Don't bother messing with it. just R&R the unit and you'll be good to go if you want to continue using the PC-3.

So they charged you $25 to test it and then charged you again for a replacement? Sounds like they aren't standing too closely behind their product to me.

 

[chivvalry]

Perhaps the black negative wire has some not visible cut..?!You said that with the PC disconnected the bike pulls stronger..!It sounds not normal..The zero map is the stock bike map in the ECU.Have you check or setting the throttle position values?Perhaps the PC can't see the throttle position for a reason..Click in the last title:how to set the throttle position values.https://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=PCIIIUSB

No, actually I said with a zero map, o2 sensor disconnected, and PC connected it seemed to pull stronger than with the PC disconnectd but still stalled out. That was after a test running using their map for the two brothers pipes where it stalled out twice. It will not stall with the PC disconnected. I also said I may have lost all perspective at this point! ;-)

I have it configured now with PC connected and zero map. I will see how the ride to work goes.

 

[Mihalis fjr]

Uhh,yes..(my English are not the best..).

It sounds normal,zero map is the stock map and with the o2 sensor disconnected the bike pull stronger because the ECU don't read the signal from the sensor and gives more rich mixture to the engine in all rpm's.The stall surely is not normal..Very odd!Perhaps a coupler of the PC not doing a good connection,or something going wrong with the black wire,or the PC inside has a problem..But do and the, set of the throttle position values only for the close position..

 

[Fred W]

First off: The bike should run identically when you have the PC3 running the zero map and O2 disconnected, and with the PC3 bypassed and the O2 sensor disconnected. If there is any difference at all, including the possibility that it feels like it pulls stronger with the PC3 installed, then there is something wrong with the PC3.

Secondly: If you are comparing the PC3 w/ O2 disconnected to when you had no PC3 but w/ O2 connected they should also "pull" identically. The only tiome the O2 sensor does a thing is during idle and steady cruise conditions. The rest of the time the ECU is running the base ECU fuel map (open loop).

Thirdly: If you have to "work at it" to make the bike stall, do you really think that is the exact same symptom? Or maybe you are become a bot sensitized to the stalling symptom and are looking for troubles?

You mentioned earlier that you had adjusted the idle speed to 1000 rpm. That isn't good enough. It needs to be 1100 rpm. Erring on the high side (say 1200 rpm) would be better than on the low side in this instance. If you cannot achieve the 1100 rpm with the idle adjust screw and it is maxed out it's time to go under the tank again and open up all 4 of the idle air bypass air screws an equal amount, and that should allow (require actually) you to lower the idle speed with the adjuster. Then just rebalance them to each other (that should be very quick, no need for the full RDCUA TBS again) and you should be in business.

After all of that, re-assess the stalling situation with the bike running the zero map. If the bike runs OK at that point you'll want to try using a different map, or at least a different copy oif the same map, as something is probably messed up with the one you had been running before.

 

[chivvalry]

When I was loading the zero map the rpm readout on the PCIII was at 950 so I bumped it up to about 1050. I may have to get under the tank to get it to go any higher and do as you said.

On the way in to work this morning I was feeling all smug and happy as I had no stall out of the driveway, she felt great all the way in, no stalls at stop lights, etc. then I pull in the parking lot and she stalls dead. No warning at all, exactly as she had done previously... Didn't work at it this time at all. As I turn in from the road it was clear so no stop in the road and I just pulled in the clutch and coasted in... Downshifted her into 1st while doing that. Kept the clutch in and as I come to a stop in preparation to backing her into my spot, she dies.

Argh.

 

[Fred W]

And the idle speed just before the stall was... ?

Could this just be that the idle speed is varying (lower) as the engine gets really warmed up?

Is your stalling usually happening with the clutch pulled in and at a stop? Could the clutch be dragging some pulling down the rpm?

It's real hard to diagnose these kind'a things from the other end of the intarwebs.

 

[chivvalry]

Totally understand you guys are working off crappy reporting across the interwebs on trying to troubleshoot this... I appreciate the insights greatly though.

Not sure exactly what idle was since I wasn't looking directly at the tach when she died but from sound of it she was on a solid idle at around 1050. I measured the RPMs at 1050 on the PC while she was fully warm (showed four bars). Obviously that is mostly guessing by ear since I wasn't looking at the tach but I feel confident it wasn't a low idle. Also it certainly doesnt feel or sound like the clutch is dragging at all... it wasn't an engine lugging stall it was more like I hit the kill switch (which I didnt). Just cut out dead. Would that be the indication I would get if Mihalis is right and there is an intermittent break or bad connection on the ground wire?

At this point I really do not trust the PCIII. I'm going to disconnect it again either tonight or tomorrow... if I get a stall with it disconnected then I will continue troubleshooting but if I get no stall after a few days then I am calling it bad.

Should I leave the o2 sensor disconnected or hook it back up?

 

[Fred W]

Yes, if it just goes from purring along to kaput that sounds very digital and could be caused by a flaky ground or other problem internal to the PC3. I would expect you to feel some stumbling when running too in that case, but...

I guess the next diagnostic test is to leave everything else exactly as it is (O2 disconnected) but bypass the PCIII again and see how it runs. If the stalling truly is gone (again) then it pretty much has to be something wrong with the PCIII.

 

[chivvalry]

Lunch break grocery run for the wife resulted in two hard and one easy start... and when I pulled back in to work I got "hiccup..... hiccup.... die." The hiccups seem like it cuts off dead but comes back on before the engine has time to stop rotating. The PCIII is coming off as soon as I get home this evening... I'll leave the o2 sensor disconnected as a final troubleshooting step.

 

[chivvalry]

Disconnected the PC Monday evening... left o2 sensor disconnected as well. Since then not a single stall or hard start and I've been riding it daily. Reconnecting the o2 sensor and pulling the PC completely off the bike sometime this weekend. I will see if I can get a replacement for it from Dynojet...

 

[Fred W]

Good job figuring it out. Glad it turned out to be something so (relatively) simple.