Teaching someone motorcycle safety

[DonRed7]

Wow,..as always this little world always comes through when needed with awesome advice. We just picked the bike up this evening after work and i got soaked to the n##t's and quite chilled on the way back to the shop as riding it instead of ramping it into the truck seemed like the thing to do. This is an excellent learning bike with a low CG, nice handling, smooth (clutch out in first torque) so as not to need any throttle application and very light steering. She is on her way to all gear and just has to find a good pair of pants as a last piece. I'm going to be pretty busy with work through the weekend so her patience is going to have to get her by untill next weekend in the school parking lot. I'll see if i can pull off a bit of a photo shoot then.

I'm still trying to warm up and gotta get a bite

Thanks again

Cheers

-Don

 

[MEM]

And, if you're interested in an ERC for yourself, info is at that same link. They run in Moncton; I did it last August. Not Lee Parks but certainly worthwhile.
Have fun!

Mary Ellen

Ummmm... just to clarify folks: I definitely was NOT advocating a Lee Parks-type course for Missy. :blink: Rather, I was giving Don info on local Beginners courses for her and on an ERC for HIM if HE's interested in advancing his own skills or forcing himself to do some drills on his own bike

 

[playgtar]

A friend and person i work with just bought a gently used 535 Virago and just about has all of her paper work in order so that she(we) can get it home and start the "learning to safely ride a motorcycle" thing. Feeling to some degree responsible for her well being as she has been on the back of the FJR several times and has been smitten with the "why we ride" philosophy i need to give her as good of a head start as possible. Unfortunatly she will not have the benefit of a proper MSF course until one is avaliable in our area,....Sooo.... It's kinda' up to me. I have given her some instruction on the dirt bikes and she had an excellent hour or so, learning and most importantly listening very well. But now it's time to spend 8 to 12 hours in a parking lot coupled with the proper guidance and the after that road stuff.
So while it is in no way my intention to replace a certified course i do need any extra tips or good links that would add to a safe experience for her. I know the obvious that needs to be reinforced.....From the all important Gear mantra, Pre operation checks, handling concepts and most of the stuff in between,..... and towards the end with the importance of emergency braking.

Any good advice would be appreciated. And i will probably be sending her to look at this topic so she realizes how important taking the time to learn properly is.

Oh BTW,....she's a really cute little blonde and if i get some reasonable input she might even let me flip up a pic of her.

Thanks,..Cheers

-Don

Now here is an idea, from a purely male perspective. "ROAD TRIP"! Put her on the back of your FJR and cart her to a MSF course site. Let her take the course while you do a little running around. Stay over night and have some fun. Learning to ride of course!

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Unfortunatly she will not have the benefit of a proper MSF course until one is avaliable in our area,....Sooo.... It's kinda' up to me.

Instead of waiting for a class (MSF or otherwise) to come to her, and in the mean time learn habits that she'll likely have to break, I would strongly suggest that she go to a class....even if it means a road trip and a couple of nights in a hotel. Your willingness to teach her how to ride is admirable, however (and I've seen this time and time again with new riders), you'll very likely make it more difficult in the long run for her to develop a solid base of proper riding skills and habits. Your intentions are good, but you simply can't provide the level of instruction that formal rider education can provide. It's available SOMEWHERE near you. Encourage her to take advantage of it.

 

[James Burleigh]

If she's willing to learn it will get her started the right way.

"If she's willing to learn..."? Where have I heard that before? :blink:

 

[SacramentoMike]

As already said by exskibum, some of the written material mentioned, while excellent, would be very daunting to try and learn from as a beginner. In fact, I've read plenty of technical material on riding and often find it to be pretty confusing (when to lean as you enter the turn, rolling on or off the throttle, setting the load on the front shocks just so, etc., etc.) A lot of that wouldn't mean much to her and worse, bore her silly.

But I know there is an awful lot of simple basic info out there, and much of it can be Googled. One of the best sites I've ever found is the goldmine of information compiled by the owner of California Scientific (CalSci windshields). He's a rider, and inventor, and a real interesting guy, and he put together dozens of links that you'll find in the page I linked. Below are the links in just ONE of the sections in his site, and I found them all to be good common sense and easy to read. Check it out.

Introduction to Motorcycles

Types of Motorcycles

Motorcycle Safety

Buying a Motorcycle

Recomendations

Motorcycle Controls

Motorcycle Steering

Motorcycle Shifting

Motorcycle Brakes

Hitting Obstacles

Lane Positions

Cargo and Passengers

Parking Motorcycles

Basic Operation

Practice Exercises

Conclusion

Good luck with your little training program; make it fun. And post the dang pictures!

 

[v65]

The MSF has a curriculum for experienced riders to teach beginners: MSF Rider prep.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

The MSF has a curriculum for experienced riders to teach beginners: MSF Rider prep.

I clicked on that link -- but didn't find "curriculum for experienced riders to teach beginners". I did find some 'seminar curricula' that experienced riders could use.

Maybe I missed it?

Introducing a non-rider to motorcycling, successfully, can be a daunting task that's fraught with responsibility. Not to say it can't be done by an "average Joe" -- but, the MSF is/are the professionals.

 

[v65]

The MSF has a curriculum for experienced riders to teach beginners: MSF Rider prep.

I clicked on that link -- but didn't find "curriculum for experienced riders to teach beginners". I did find some 'seminar curricula' that experienced riders could use.

Maybe I missed it?

Introducing a non-rider to motorcycling, successfully, can be a daunting task that's fraught with responsibility. Not to say it can't be done by an "average Joe" -- but, the MSF is/are the professionals.

Late night, my mistake. There are some modules there they claim that anyone can use to present the MSF curricula. The experienced rider was my words.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Introducing a non-rider to motorcycling, successfully, can be a daunting task that's fraught with responsibility.

...AND legal liability.

Let's say you assume the responsibility to teach Miss Attractive Co-worker how to ride. Two months later she gets in an accident that results in property damage or injury (or worse) and it's discovered that you either failed to teach her something she should have been taught, or what you taught her wasn't completely accurate and it led to that accident.

Don't know how things work in the Great White North, but here in the U.S. you would very likely find yourself up to your eyeballs in lawyers and lawsuits. Think VERY carefully about that, because most people who innocently offer to teach a friend to ride (or drive) don't!

 

[exskibum]

Introducing a non-rider to motorcycling, successfully, can be a daunting task that's fraught with responsibility.

...AND legal liability.

Let's say you assume the responsibility to teach Miss Attractive Co-worker how to ride. Two months later she gets in an accident that results in property damage or injury (or worse) and it's discovered that you either failed to teach her something she should have been taught, or what you taught her wasn't completely accurate and it led to that accident.

Don't know how things work in the Great White North, but here in the U.S. you would very likely find yourself up to your eyeballs in lawyers and lawsuits. Think VERY carefully about that, because most people who innocently offer to teach a friend to ride (or drive) don't!

With all due respect, I thing that's stretching it a bit. While it's true that anyone CAN sue anyone else for damn near anything, establishing liability for negligent skills training would be an uphill task at best. Issues like proximate cause, duty (and to whom) and intervening causes (consider also that she'll have to take the DMV test to get her motorcycle endorsement) all pose significant hurdles. I'm not going to research it, but I would expect that if there are any cases establishing liability in this situation, the facts to support that liability would be pretty narrow. (Such a theory of liability shouldn't be confused with "negligent entrustment", which is a different theory of liability. It stems from an owner of dangerous implement (e.g., a car or motorcycle) entrusting it to someone that the owner knows is incompetent to operate it, and who, due to that incompetence, injures someone else with it.)

Again, I'm not saying it could not happen, but consider how fine the line would be between the student not being taught something and the common problem of just not enough experience. As an MSF instructor, you sure don't want that line blurred, because after a 3 day course (in which YOU guys administer the test whose results the DMV accepts to issue MC endorsements), we all know you still have some pretty raw new riders set loose whose inexperience leads to accidents. No way that in 3 days you can train that out of them or even give them a number of advanced concepts or skills that might have allowed them to avoid that accident they end up causing.

Still, as I said above, I certainly agree with your major premise: that it would be far better for a beginner to be taught by those who are the experts in teaching beginners -- MSF.

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Skibum's probably right. The THREE separate liability statements I must read and the lengthy "Waiver and Release of Liability" that my students must sign before I'm allowed to conduct a BRC are probably pointless :glare: They sure do a nice job, however, of clearing up those fine lines that skibum mentioned

It's not like we're teaching anyone how do do anything that can be dangerous or fatal if not instructed correctly :blink:

Besides, who ever heard of a motorcyclist riding on the streets and getting into an accident BEFORE they actually take the DMV test and get their motorcycle endorsement by the state!?

Ya, exskibum's probably right: thinking you might be held liable is probably "stretching it a bit".

(don't mind the sarcasm, skibum, just trying to illustrate a point)

 

[exskibum]

Skibum's probably right. The THREE separate liability statements I must read and the lengthy "Waiver and Release of Liability" that my students must sign before I'm allowed to conduct a BRC are probably pointless :glare: They sure do a nice job, however, of clearing up those fine lines that skibum mentioned
It's not like we're teaching anyone how do do anything that can be dangerous or fatal if not instructed correctly :blink:

Besides, who ever heard of a motorcyclist riding on the streets and getting into an accident BEFORE they actually take the DMV test and get their motorcycle endorsement by the state!?

Ya, exskibum's probably right: thinking you might be held liable is probably "stretching it a bit".

(don't mind the sarcasm, skibum, just trying to illustrate a point)

Sorry you feel that I challenged you, Larry, but the snottiness wasn't necessary in any event. I've been practicing law for 25 years, riding for 44, and have authored many of those liability releases for clients. Let's see -- I've done them for ski shops, ski races, golf tournaments, snowmobile operators, etc., etc. etc. In doing that, I've read a lot of cases and statutes and used pieces of a number of forms in my efforts to craft the most bulletproof assumption of risk and release forms that would be enforceable. There is damn little in law that is black and white, but it's amazing how many people think otherwise. Maybe you should reread what I actually and pretty carefully wrote.

You are assuming a couple things about releases to reach a conclusion that's not necessarily true. Any good lawyer will do as much as is reasonably possible (including releases as standard practice) to provide prophylactic protection against the creative or unscrupulous lawyer who might file the lawsuit that I agreed up front was possible, though not likely to be meritorious. (Is it better to have one or several defenses, and would it be preferable if one of those might get you out of the case earlier in the process? For the most part, that's what is going on with those releases, rather than the implication you suggest -- that these are winning suits without them.) So, I'd have been surprised if you didn't have to get liability releases signed. But even without them, there are still the problems I mentioned in trying to prevail on a negligent training by friend theory. BTW, your releases would be completely useless against someone that your student injured while riding (as in your example), but you didn't know that, did you?

One other thing you missed in this, despite my note in the earlier post: unlike Don in this thread, you MSF instructors give the test that the DMV relies upon (at least in the states I'm familiar with) in issuing the motorcycle endorsement to that student. As a result, you're the ones certifying that the students you pass have the necessary minimum skills to ride on the road. When an agency of the state does that, it typically has immunity from suit. MSF is not such an entity, however, so any corporate lawyer failing to insist that the broadest and most ironclad releases be required of students is a hack that might even be committing malpractice. In contrast, the individual teaching a friend has no authority to administer such a test that will be accepted for licensure reasons; he's not certifying anything. She still has to take the test from the DMV, so he's effectively left the assessment of her skills to the DMV, with every reason to expect that her passing or failing the DMV administered test speaks to whether she has attained the minimum level of skills necessary to take it out on the road. BIG difference, and one that damn well does matter in assessing liability.

I was respectful of you in my earlier comment. I suppose your sarcastic response should have been expected, though, since you always seem to demonstrate an Attitude regarding anything that even tangentially touches upon MSF training.

Have a nice day.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>.... you MSF instructors give the test that the DMV relies upon (at least in the states I'm familiar with) in issuing the motorcycle endorsement to that student. As a result, you're the ones certifying that the students you pass have the necessary minimum skills to ride on the road. When an agency of the state does that, they typically have immunity from suit. MSF is not such an entity, however,...

I don't know how this figures into the discussion (if at all?) -- but in the states that I'm familiar with (damn few), the MSF BRC Instructors/Rider Coaches that are authorized to administer a qualifying road-test (in lieu of DMV) are considered/licensed Third Party License Examiners by the state.

 

[exskibum]

<snip>.... you MSF instructors give the test that the DMV relies upon (at least in the states I'm familiar with) in issuing the motorcycle endorsement to that student. As a result, you're the ones certifying that the students you pass have the necessary minimum skills to ride on the road. When an agency of the state does that, they typically have immunity from suit. MSF is not such an entity, however,...

I don't know how this figures into the discussion (if at all?) -- but in the states that I'm familiar with (damn few), the MSF BRC Instructors/Rider Coaches that are authorized to administer a qualifying road-test (in lieu of DMV) are considered/licensed Third Party License Examiners by the state.

If I were defending a suit based upon some negligent training/certification claim against MSF, what you mention would be a note I'd make to the insurance carrier upon my initial review of the file (thanks to your mention of the possibility). I'd probably suggest that among my expected tasks would be researching the immunity issue to see if I could find any authority to extend state immunity to MSF and its instructors, since that would end the part of the lawsuit dependent upon that claim if we were successful. Off the top of my head, I really don't know if I'd be successful in finding authority for extending that immunity in this context, and I have too much on my plate to research it out of curiousity, but . . .

coincidentally, I'm meeting up with several fellow Norcal FJR riders for socializing and early dinner in a couple hours. I'm not going to blow the cover of one expected attendee (since he seldom if ever cops to being a lawyer here), but he's a litigator for the State whose area of practice is such that I wouldn't be surprised if he knows that off the top of his head.

We'd call that good issue spotting, charismatic fauna!

 

[RiderCoach Lar]

Sorry you feel that I challenged you, Larry, but the snottiness wasn't necessary in any event.

No apology necessary, exskibum. I didn't feel challenged by you. As someone who deals with rider training and the reponsibilities that go along with that on a regular basis, I felt the liability issue was a fair concern to bring to DonRed7's attention and, suprisingly enough, being a lawyer who admits that "anyone CAN sue anyone else for damn near anything", you apparently don't feel it's something he needs to consider.

I'm okay with someone having a differing opinion. Perhaps I should be the one apologizing to you. I had no idea you were so easily offended by sarcasm and an opinion that differs from yours (or maybe you just didn't read the last line where I asked you not to mind the sarcasm ). Surprising, considering how long you've been a member here.

As far as my "attitude" regarding rider education, it's probably not so different than yours regarding practicing law: it's something that I've commited myself to and, based on my knowledge and experience, feel I'm reasonably qualified to talk about it and defend it against ignorance. Granted, we're not looked at with quite as much ignorance as attorneys, but we deal with our fair share.

Imagine what a sucky place this would be if we all shared the same opinion or if we couldn't take a friendly poke at someone for having a different one.

Lighten up, exskibum. No disrespect intended; we're all good :good:

edit: In the region I teach for in Illinois, we are authorized by the state to administer both a riding and a written exam and also issue waivers to those who pass both that allows them to automatically receive their motorcycle endorsement without any further testing by the state.