The Cooker has it's first illness...

[PapaUtah]

Well it looks like the Cooker will be headed to the dealer for a little work later this fall or early winter. Since my return from NAFO I have been getting a significant amount of cam chain noise at various times. My bike starts quickly and is very quiet, no cam chain noise at all. Once I am on the road and I get up to 2 bars, the first few times I hit a stop light, etc. and let the bike idle down I get a fair amount of cam chain noise. Bringing the idle up ever so slightly and the noise goes away. Once the bike is fully warmed up I get no noise at idle and I have had no noise while underway.

I pulled the bolt out of the tensioner and turned the screw counter-clockwise and the cam chain got real quiet. Released it and the noise came back. I am working with a local shop. They had an 04 in the shop last Friday for the tick-fix, so the mechanic has experience with the FJR. I don't think it can be as simple as tensioner replacement. I think the chain must be stretched to the point the spring in the tensioner is extended beyond its' ability to maintain proper tension. I have the YES warranty and I am going to push for a complete chain, follower and tensioner replacement.

The Cooker is on its' 23rd oil change in 36K miles. I don't think it was an oil issue. I will try and get pictures when it is torn down later this fall.

 

[odot]

Um let me guess, you weren't using amsoil, were ya?

 

[Hotboot]

23 oil changes.....what a waste of fluid. That's a change every 1565 miles.

A new tensioner should quiet things down for ya, it did mine.

 

[SkooterG]

It's the tensioner.

Many have needed replacement. Not too many cam chain replacements out there. While it's not impossible that it's the chain, with only 36k on your motor odds are overwhelming that it's just the tensioner.

 

[dcarver]

First hand experience with the tensioner here. 60,000 on the 06A and intermittent noise. TWN first brought it to my attention at WFO, Park City, approx 45,000 miles and I just kept riding the beast knowing it couldn't be all that bad.

Then Ionbeam had his catastrophic failure and even me, dense as I am, had enough.

Prior to NAFO, had the way overdue valves adjusted (3 out of spec) and new tensioner installed. All noise has gone away. The tech was wondering why I had tensioner in hand and was wanting the stocker replaced; when he listened, all was quiet. I simply quoted forum experience, many have had problems, 1 very bad problems, and for $90, just replace it, eh?

I wouldn't think you need to have the whole enchilada replaced - just the tensioner.

OBTW, my 148,000 mile HD FLHUTC is still running strong as new, no engine problems whatsoever. None. Burns no oil, leaks no oil, original valves (my fjr valves replaced at 30,000), no cam tensioner noise, nothing! Ever consider buying a reliable HD to ride?

 

[08FJR4ME]

Ever consider buying a reliable HD to ride?

Never given it a thought, NEVER WILL :angry:

 

[v65]

I wouldn't think you need to have the whole enchilada replaced - just the tensioner.

The counter argument would be that the chain is $16, why not replace it while your there?

 

[James]

I had increasing noise (post tic fix @30,000ish miles) & suspected the tensioner. Took it in several times to have them listen to it, and similar to the tic issue, I was the only one that could hear it for quite a while. Tried one last time after Park City, before the Y.E.S. ran out (P.O. only got 3 years) & they heard it (36,000). On inspection they said the tensioner was fine, but the chain was stretched (worn). They replaced the chain & the noise went away, so I think they were right . Probably should have had them replace the tensioner at the same time, but didn't.

 

[SkooterG]

On inspection they said the tensioner was fine, but the chain was stretched (worn).

What kind of inspection?

Did they actually measure the chain? Or were they going by assumptions?

Still, interesting the chain only fixed the noise.

 

[ionbeam]

Direct comparison between my 40k mile cam chain and a new cam chain shows that my old chain was getting worn. The actual compared length between old and new shows that the wear was less than expected, yet still pretty well worn coming from an engine that always had the oil and filter changed at or before factory recommended intervals using oil that Yamaha would approve of.

Working in conjunction with the wearing cam chain was a weakening cam chain tensioner. I will post pictures and actual force measurements at some point when I can. I’ve carried parts around and shown others what I’ve found. The total cam chain tensioner travel is ~1.25 inches. The tensioner shaft has shiny wear marks around the 5/8” extension point to the final wear marks around the 7/8” extension point. When the tensioner shaft was extended 5/8” the cam chain was new. At present, when the tensioner shaft is released to the 5/8 length I would guess the spring tension is roughly 200 grams. When the tensioner is extended to the 7/8” point I would guess the spring tension is not more than 20 grams. The more worn the chain became, the less able the tensioner was to take up the slack. More details to come as the autopsy progresses. I’ve had the tensioner apart and have embarked on a real data gathering forensics. In the mean time, I would suggest that if the cam chain is being replaced to examine the spring pressure of the cam chain tensioner. The important area to compare spring tension is from just less than ½ way extended to ~3/4 way extended. As a cam chain wears you would like the tensioner to have good pressure on the cam chain slipper to reduce slack.

 

[PapaUtah]

I am about 3 months away from the end of the riding season here. I think I could do the tensioner swap, but I am going to lobby for the whole thing. They can take their time. Hopefully the Cooker will be ready for another 40K. Maybe Mamma Yamaha will have the new R1 Red, 1400cc, 165hp, 6-speed FJR1400 ready for sale when the Cooker is ready to move on to a new owner.

I gave the Harley-Davidson© some consideration but in the end I wanted something with a little more horsepower than my walk-behind Toro lawnmower and fewer shakes than a palsy convention. :tease:

 

[dcarver]

Ever consider buying a reliable HD to ride?

Never given it a thought, NEVER WILL :angry:

Never say Never! The HD is one sweet ride. Ride one and you'll never go back!

I wouldn't think you need to have the whole enchilada replaced - just the tensioner.

The counter argument would be that the chain is $16, why not replace it while your there?

Cost. If you're a PonyFool and are tearing the motor down to tranny level, then sure.

I am about 3 months away from the end of the riding season here. I think I could do the tensioner swap, but I am going to lobby for the whole thing. They can take their time. Hopefully the Cooker will be ready for another 40K. Maybe Mamma Yamaha will have the new R1 Red, 1400cc, 165hp, 6-speed FJR1400 ready for sale when the Cooker is ready to move on to a new owner.
I gave the Harley-Davidson© some consideration but in the end I wanted something with a little more horsepower than my walk-behind Toro lawnmower and fewer shakes than a palsy convention. :tease:

Hey dude, I really enjoy the fact you have HD stock yet have no respect for the marque. When your FJR lies dead in your garage with no parts available, (7 years?) I'll still be riding my 1991 HD FLHTCU and be able to repair the bike even though it's 40 years old.

Sometimes underpowered machinery, simple stuff, outlives the new fancy throw-it-away technology.

How about this? In 20 years I'll ride my HD to your house; in the spirit of fun and grinning. If you can still light the fire in that FJR and ride it for a day, dinner is on me! :yahoo:

(Have I stirred the pot enough?)

 

[PapaUtah]

Dcarver, you crack me up! I love your posts. You remind me of my Dad, and he makes me laugh my ass off every time I get to see him. If he were in charge we would still be driving Model T's, the crank phone would be good enough, mom would still be beating the rugs out back to clean them, the stove would still be wood fired, the roads would be dirt, formal schooling would be over in the 8th grade, we would heat the house with coal, you would spend every February putting up ice in the ice house, TV would still be black and white, man would never have walked on the moon and we wouldn't be able to have these witty exchanges on the "internet."

I am glad you will be able to repair your 49hp 1991 Harley-Davidson© FLHTCU in 2028. (The Honda CB750, a smaller displacement bike, already had 69hp in 1971, twenty years earlier!) With the pace of change at Harley-Davidson© they will still be using the same parts in their "new" bikes! My 1971 Pontiac was a nice car…in 1971. But the only thing those old cars have in common with the new ones are that they both have 4 wheels. Harley-Davidson© hasn't quite figured that out.

I love Harley-Davidson© from a business standpoint. They are able to sell 70 year old technology for a premium. Their R&D budget is $0.00. Their marketing department is worth it's weight in platinum, gold, silver and diamonds. Their margins are 40-45% gross!!! The fact of the matter is they owe their success to the aging of the baby boomers, lots of 65 to 45 year old guys trying to relive their youth. You can see it in the car auctions too, see the demand for cars of the 50's and 60's. I choose not to live life looking in the rear view mirror. But if I can make money off those that choose to do so…I will.

Yes, I will take you up on your offer! You ride your 40 year old Harley-Davidson© up here and we will go out to dinner. I will buy dinner just because you would have to be nuts to ride that rattling pile of bolts that old up here! One condition though…all of the parts on the bike when you leave need to arrive here at the end of the trip. If anything falls off on the way and you don't find it, then you have to buy! :tease:

Enough on The Motor Company©! Back to the topic of this thread, do you think I should get the whole chain, slides and tensioner replaced or just chance it with the tensioner? We have winter here so the bike is laid up for 3 or 4 months anyway so time is not of the essence.

 

[radman]

Enough on The Motor Company©! Back to the topic of this thread, do you think I should get the whole chain, slides and tensioner replaced or just chance it with the tensioner? We have winter here so the bike is laid up for 3 or 4 months anyway so time is not of the essence.

Hell, if they're buying you'd be a fool not to get it all.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

<snip>... Back to the topic of this thread, do you think I should get the whole chain, slides and tensioner replaced or just chance it with the tensioner?

Proper repair procedure would dictate: close inspection and precise measurement of any parts removed and under consideration for replacement. Any parts well within factory specs need not be replaced.

Remember -- once installed, a 'new' part suddenly becomes a 'used' part. :huh:

One might construe, tho, that this will 'fall-on-deaf-ears' to one who changes their engine lube oil every 1565 miles....? :blink:

 

[Aasland]

This is my first bike with a cam chain and tensioner which I intend to rack up some miles on. At the moment I have about 36k miles too.

So what does a worn cam chain tensioner sound like?

Are there any other points of failure I should be looking for?

 

[PapaUtah]

I will be pressing for the entire assembly to be replaced.

I have gone longer than 1565 between changes...and a lot less too! I get cases of oil as XMas and birthday presents...might as well use it. I was amazed at just how clean the top end was when it was off for the valve check. No scuffs or polished spots on the cam lobes. Looked darn near new in there!

As for the noise its just rattle coming from the right side of the bike at idle. The second I pick up the RPMs at all it stops. I raised the tank and played with the tensioner while it was rattling. When I forced the tensioner out by turning the screwdriver couter clockwise the noise stops completely. Let it go and it slowly starts its rattle again. I have an old Rifle golf shaft I use as a stethoscope. You can here the rattle through the tensioner and cam case. No where else. That's why my focus is on the cam chain and/or tensioner/slides.

 

[ionbeam]

The cam chain is one of the least expensive parts and one of the hardest to change. Technically, the chain does not stretch, it wears. The chain can be measured and should be changed if the length is too long. [but since it is out, will already be at least partly worn, it's in your hand and inexpensive why not change it.] Make sure to keep real good notes about the timing marks on both cam gears and the crank gear so you can get things mechanically timed again.

The cam chain slippers appear to be pretty robust based on my huge sample of one set Only the slipper that works with the cam chain tensioner showed any sign of wear and that was very slight. Unless you get the light just right you can't tell the new one from the old one. IMO, you could skip this as long as the backing pad where the tensioner plunger contacts the slipper is in good shape and the pivots don't feel worn.

The cam chain tensioner is a touchy feely part without absolute specs. If you have it out and in hand you might as well put in a new unit. [This little guy is a MOTHER to get out, change it while you can so you don't have to do this again for a very long time.] When comparing a new tensioner to the old tensioner you should be feeling for spring tension differences with plunger extended between 50% and 75% of the total plunger length and it should have smooth operation of the spiral extender. Would you pay $75 to avoid even a small chance of a $4,750 engine repair bill?

If the cam chain is really worn you should have a look at the cam gears for wear. If the cam gears need to be changed the chain must be replaced at the same time no matter what.

The crank gear actually drives the cam chain. I've proven that this gear is a tough part. Should the crank gear get bent or worn things get ugly fast, the gear is pressed on the crank and can not be replaced, the whole crank would have to be replaced.

Edited to add: The cam chain will start to make a rattling noise as it wears. As the chain wears it will begin to affect mechanical cam timing in a small way resulting is a small amount of power loss. When the tensioner no longer takes up all the slack that it should, the chain gets very noisy. In my case it appeared that the slack was causing my idle rpms to vary in time with the noise.

 

[donaldb]

Elp, I'm soaking up all these rays.

I have 28k on my 04 now after my return from NAFO and there seems to be some cam chain rattling going on from time to time, more noticable at certain times.

So, the bike is parked now, I'm not riding much after my return from NAFO as it's time for valve ck/adjustment, new plugs, oil change, tbsync, blah....blah. So.........as one might imagine it's August in MS so.....it's a good time to let the bike rest a bit while I replenish the MC maintenance fund. NAFO trip took a large chunk from that account.

Anyway,..........since I am going to have the valves adjusted would it be best to go ahead and buy a tensioner and replace it?? or should I wait and see how it looks??

Now please realize I am paying a guy to do the valve adjustment..I cannot perform such activities, so........... should I go ahead and buy one (ahead of inspection) and take it with me and have him replace it while in there dealing w/valves??? Or just ask him to take a good look/inspection of the chain and tensioner and decide what to do then??