The ST market and the FJR

[PapaUtah]

MMIC data comes at month-end. I'll see if I can get the market breakdown data then. That's how the manufacturers look at the segments.

 

[FriscoJim]

Just my observations but this is basically what I posted on the Roadie site a little over a year ago. As the younger guys currently riding sport bikes age and their girfriends become significant others who may not want to wear a thong anymore on the back of a crotch rocket they will look to the next step and find that the cruiser market just doesn't offer enough oomph and they will start shopping for the only logical choice - a sport tourer. I know quite a few guys who I used to ride cruisers with that got tired of paying big bucks to get their HP up to an acceptable level only to find out that the design of the bike (HD, Roadie, VTX, etc.) didn't let them take to the twisties as they thought they would. The average age of an HD customer has gone up about 10 years in the space of about 3-4 years which is why they came out with the VRod (and it bombed). Yammy brought out the Liner series and it hasn't exactly wowed them (see free 5 year warranty's as incentives) VTX's took off at first but their sales have fallen fast, remember the Kaw 2000 and the big Triumph? Don't see a lot of those around these days. I'm convinced that a lot of the cruiser guys either tired of riding (true RUB's) and are selling their leather collections or have been swithcing to ST's. Not all mind you but a significant number. I see the ST market growing (maybe slowly) over the next couple of years as new models come out and people start making their choices within that market "do I want a SPORT Tourer or a sport TOURER? I think you will find more ergo's being offered while maitaining the sport aspect without the models morphing into Wings. Wait, isn't that sort of what BMW is doing even though they could use a few styling cues and need to learn that this new market segment enjoys working on their scoots?

As soon as I sell my Warrior I'll be joining the ranks - doubt that I will get rid of the Roadie though because there are still times I like to piss off the neighbors with my loud pipes. Oh and I have too much $$ invested in dead cows and such. :lol:

Just my $.02 and if anyone knows of someone looking for a tricked out custom painted and chromed-out Warrior that will run pretty even with an FZ6 and wants to part with 13 large then email me.

 

[chornbe]

I've sold 3 FJRs and one ST1300 just since getting my FJR a few months ago. Now if only I actually WORKED at a place selling bikes to reap the benefits.

I see a lot of riders moving towards this genre, or at least showing more and more interest in it. I think it's going to be the cruiser-killer in 5 years. $.02

 

[twowheelnut]

I've sold 3 FJRs and one ST1300 just since getting my FJR a few months ago. Now if only I actually WORKED at a place selling bikes to reap the benefits.
I see a lot of riders moving towards this genre, or at least showing more and more interest in it. I think it's going to be the cruiser-killer in 5 years. $.02

This seems to be common with 'our' group. I often see some poor sod hemming and hawing over an S-T type bike v. cruiser or sporty. It's pretty easy to help the decide on an S-T - especially if there's the slightest bit of graying at the temples! :lol:

 

[warsw]

I see a lot of riders moving towards this genre, or at least showing more and more interest in it. I think it's going to be the cruiser-killer in 5 years. $.02

+1 That was me a year ago.

 

[KitsapFJR]

Just my two cents about the market....

I'm not sure if it's drying up or not, you'd have to get the actual numbers. My gut though sides with those who say that the market is widening. The onset of new bikes in the past four years or so has opened many peoples eyes to the advantages of ST type bikes. The Honda ST is a great bike and very nice looking, as are most of the others out there. However, and you can tell my bias here, the FJR has done wonders for the market. You can't believe the number of people who have come up to me and commented on my bike. People who are young and riding sports bikes really like it. It's bigger, equally as fast (at least as most people would consider it), and when I tell them the numbers (hp, speed, torque, etc...) their heart rates increase.

I'm a high school teacher and a large number of kids have told me how cool my bike is. They often say that it's "way cooler than my dad's Harley/BMW/Goldwing..." for example. There are a few kids who ride their own sport bikes to school and they clearly hold the FJR in high regard. It's obviously cool looking (in their words) and has all the performance that their bikes do and more. They like the windscreen and the overall high level of sophistication. Most of them though consider it a very adult bike largely due to the price which might be twice what their bikes are worth.

My point is not that they will all run out and buy one, but rather that we FJR riders especially, but all newer ST riders as a whole, are evangelising the public and increasing the size of the market. Where sport bikes have remained largely the same basic style over the past several years (in my opinion), the ST market overall has really made strides and now produces many amazing looking and performing bikes. It's not your fathers ST market any more.

There is a whole new generation of ST riders out there and when they get a bit older and wealthier will "move up" to an ST type bike... probably an FJR!

Steve

 

[HaulinAshe]

Here's my prediction...

The future success of the ST bike will greatly depend on how well it physically suits the females aging into their 40s that have been owners or significant passengers on crotch rockets. Otherwise, the Mazda Miatas will prevail.

Sport Tourer - (noun) - a type of motorcycle typically equipped from the factory with saddlebags for storage, a two-person seat providing suitable comfort for long distance rides of more than four hours, fuel tank capacity for the same, and the handling and power to comfortably engage tight turns and sustained speeds in excess of 120 mph without stress to either the bike or the rider.

 

[Lake Powell]

One other prediction for the market is that we'll see alot more electronic accessories on the bikes, GPS etc. We are already seeing examples of this on new cars such as factory input to the radio from ipod type devices.

And if the female market becomes stronger, I'm sure they can start to option out the engine counter balancers, nothing wrong with a little buzz through the seats.

 

[Checkswrecks]

My boss has an ST13 and we've come to the conclusion that the differences between the two are in flavor; that they are both great bikes. In speed and cornering ability, I'd clean his clock and I prefer sitting higher to see over traffic. He likes (I don't) the extra width of the ST, the integrated look of the bags, his wife prefers the ST13 rear seat, and he likes how he sits down into it.

I noticed over the last year of commuting that the number of other bikers jumped when the price of gas went up. Where I once would be the only bike commuter on colder days, I'll see at least several. Another thing which will drive more people in the Washington, DC area to alternative methods of commuting will be price hikes that our subway (Metro) is proposing, which will go well over $15/day! I'm sure other cities will have the same. Our FJRs are great and comfy commuters, as are the ST1300s, so I'm sure they will all sell out faster this year.

Bob

 

[Bounce]

There is no substitute for horsepower.

i always heard it as, "there's no replacement for displacement"

you can turbo or NOS a small-displacement engine to get its performance up. but do the same thing to big iron and it steps away again (except from the gas pump).

 

[Diver]

I'm not an owner of a S-T bike yet. I won't be doing much of any touring, and I'll do really good keeping up with most S-T riders on my warrior.

Many sport bikers have asked about the warrior, and are looking to "unfold" their body. It's different style of riding to go fast- heavy on the torque (hp is just a calculation, T is measured to get it) and heavy on the brakes, then lean to almost a scrape and repeate.

I'm looking to the FJR for 2 reasons. 1- I like Yamaha. Had a Honda and sold it for my Yammi due to the post purchase support. 2- Long commute and the warrior it too damn wide for lane splitting too much (60 miles one way). I need comfort-8 hours standing and walking on concrete hurts my back- and I need to carry stuff.

Oh, and the AE is just too cool! it fits me, it loooks great and will even clutch for me!

Diver

 

[PapaUtah]

Here are some heavyweight market stats imbedded in today's HOG earnings report release.

"HOG surprisingly shipped a 39% increase in bikes to international markets were their sales increased 29%.

Harley-Davidson™ U.S. retail sales are seeing a much more dramatic slowdown, growing just .3% in 4Q versus 6.7% in 3Q, 8.1% in 2Q, and 6.8% in 1Q.

The overall heavyweight bike market was even worse, contracting 1.7% in the quarter, versus a flat (up .2%) 3Q, growth of 9.9% in 2Q, and growth of 6.8% in 1Q.

Profitability was still good for H-D™ with net income up 8.7% for the year."

 

[Dj'sFJR]

As soon as I sell my Warrior I'll be joining the ranks - doubt that I will get rid of the Roadie though because there are still times I like to piss off the neighbors with my loud pipes. Oh and I have too much $$ invested in dead cows and such. :lol: Just my $.02 and if anyone knows of someone looking for a tricked out custom painted and chromed-out Warrior that will run pretty even with an FZ6 and wants to part with 13 large then email me.

Say it ain't so Frisco...Been riding for a little over 36 years, 27 on the street...With so many different bikes over the years can honestly say I wish I had a bike for each day of the week...I think we all can attest to that. Different bikes for different wants/needs for different days.

I have to admit the FJR is the closest thing I've found for a "one size" fits all kinda deal. Looks great, fun to ride, good HP/TQ, incredible brakes and intuitive handling, and gets the occasional "nice ride" nod from many different riders.

With that said though, I think I'll keep my "tweeked" Warrior. As much as I love the FJR...The looks, styling and brute TQ (122ftlbs) of my Warrior will help keep it in the stable...It's hard to have the best of all worlds in one bike but this "ST" bike in peticular, that we've all grown to admire and appreciate, would no doubt change alot of potential "ST" riders minds if ever given a chance to experience...FJR FTW...!

 

[FriscoJim]

As soon as I sell my Warrior I'll be joining the ranks - doubt that I will get rid of the Roadie though because there are still times I like to piss off the neighbors with my loud pipes. Oh and I have too much $$ invested in dead cows and such. :lol: Just my $.02 and if anyone knows of someone looking for a tricked out custom painted and chromed-out Warrior that will run pretty even with an FZ6 and wants to part with 13 large then email me.

Say it ain't so Frisco...Been riding for a little over 36 years, 27 on the street...With so many different bikes over the years can honestly say I wish I had a bike for each day of the week...I think we all can attest to that. Different bikes for different wants/needs for different days.

I have to admit the FJR is the closest thing I've found for a "one size" fits all kinda deal. Looks great, fun to ride, good HP/TQ, incredible brakes and intuitive handling, and gets the occasional "nice ride" nod from many different riders.

With that said though, I think I'll keep my "tweeked" Warrior. As much as I love the FJR...The looks, styling and brute TQ (122ftlbs) of my Warrior will help keep it in the stable...It's hard to have the best of all worlds in one bike but this "ST" bike in peticular, that we've all grown to admire and appreciate, would no doubt change alot of potential "ST" riders minds if ever given a chance to experience...FJR FTW...!

I've often said it would be nice to have one for each day of the week - talked my wife into a second scoot (really a 3rd because I get to excercise her 1100 V* once in awhile) but I found I just wasn't riding the Warrior enough - no carrying capacity at all - I've got it set up solo and there isn't room to carry an extra shield for when the sun goes down. I'd probably keep the Roadie just because it's been a labor of love over the years and one thing the Vtwins do have that no other bike has and that's a soul/personality - a buddy that has a Wing says he loves his bike but it has no soul - great machine but just doesn't have the connection with it

 

[05fjrman]

For me, the FJR was a no brainer. IMO, the ST style of bike is the only one that offers everything that I need. I've owned cruisers, sportbikes, and standards, all of which were good at one or 2 things. I wanted something that still made my blood boil when I opened it up, which ruled out cruisers. I needed, per the wife, something that could comfortably carry 2 people and their gear, which ruled out sportbikes. And I wanted something stylish, which ruled out standards (by standards, I mean the UJM). So what are you left with? You all guessed it. The FJR is the best example of the ST design available today, but I have yet to see a Conny 14, though. And the FJR is relatively cheap, I got my '03 for 7500, couldn't touch a BMW for that kind of money.

 

[Cal24Master]

I believe history will always repeat itself. Look at the history of "Sport Touring" bikes. Arguably BMW started it. With prices well above the cost of their competitors, there market share will always be limited. Kawasaki stepped into the market with the Concours. Sales of the Connie were just enough to keep it in the dealers inventories, but not enought to really upgrade the bike for 20 years. Honda came out with the ST1100. It had a great following, but it was normal to see models one and two years old on a dealers show floor, and the resale value of ST1100's has always been pitiful. It has never been unusual for a 2 or 3 year old ST with low mileage going for less than half of what it sold for new.

Then enter the FJR. The first real change in "Sport Touring" bikes. High power, reasonably low weight, (at least when compared with the ST1100) great handling and comfortable ergos. The mere idea of it forced Honda to revamp the ST for the first time in over a decade. The numbers of FJR's sold has surprized everyone, including Yamaha. How many of these sales can be attributed to the "I can't get one, so I want one." syndrome? I don't know. I was one of the people who wrote to Yamaha when I saw the FJR in magazines and found they would not sell them here. I told them if they imported them I would buy one. And I did, in fact now I've bought two.

I said when the FJR's came here that Yamaha would keep the PDP program until everyone who wanted one got one, then they would lift it and produce a gizillion of them, flood the dealers showrooms, and sales would level off or dip. With Kawasaki coming out with the new Connie and Honda possibly rethinking the ST1300, that could put further pressure on FJR sales. If that happens, it can create another condition that you see in Motorcycle dealerships. When a manufacturer has a model that is in overproduction and a high inventory, and another model in high demand they will often tell the dealer that they have to take x number of the high inventory model in order to get the high demand model. This forcing of dealers to take models they may not really want leads to even further price dropping.

We will see but I think jkern is correct. I will be surprized if at the end of this summer there aren't quite a few 2007's sitting dealer showfloors that could be had for a good deal. That will drive down the price of used FJR's.

 

[JS1300]

I see both sides of the issue as vaild. Supply may be up, demand could go down (?). Time will tell what the market will do. Either way, the FJR remains a great bike. I just bought mine, knowing of the other options (even/especially the new Kawi) and am very happy with my decision. I am only 26 and, for me, the FJR did pull from the R1/GSXR market-as you know, for the price of an FJR, you have many options- I have noticed that there are many post concerning money within the FJR forum, which to me is kind of interesting. If everyone likes their bikes so much why is it the hot topic? I came from the FZ6 forum (yes, a cheaper bike), but I remember much less discussion of money issues (perhaps because people have much less in them?). I think we all hope our bikes are worth a lot of money if/when we choose to sell them....I try to focus on the fun end of it (we all know our bike obsesions are expensive, right?). Drive it into the ground and don't worry about whats on the dealer floor...To each his own or whatever. :exhappysmiley:

 

[El Gordo]

My $.02 ......The general motorcycle market is in a strong growth phase, I have read 25% in Canada last year. ST's will enjoy a percentage of that growth. More folks with some or lots of grey hair are returning to riding or learning to ride, many of which are looking to holiday by motorcycle. People get tired of the 'assume the position' on sport bikes, and want peformance with more comfort, as well as get older and the significant other isn't willing to perch on a sportbike. More cruisers are learning that bikes can be both fast and comfortable and give up the cruiser image. My neighbour and I swapped his Vulcan for my FJR for a ride....seems he is waiting to see the new Concours before he decides which ST to buy. I think ST's are going to have a larger market but with more manufacturers competing for their slice. Guess time will tell?

 

[daytripper]

The leather crowd is about being seen in America. The ST crowd is about seeing America. That's my .02. If this is not a growing market segment then why did Kawi just introduce an ST.

 

[v65]

So we are talking about the US market here right? The companies being discussed are global...