To hang off the bike in turns, or not

[OrangevaleFJR]

In another thread I am creating a post dealing with group riding safety. In this message, in addition to various guidelines, I published a link to "the pace"

One of the guidelines in the pace is:



"Don't hang off in the corners or tuck in on the straights. Sitting sedately on the bike looks safer and reduces unwanted attention. It also provides a built-in safety margin. "

There is some discussion regarding this.

For ease, I'm going to post the discussion

Lee said:BUT...a slight hang-off is a safer way to ride solo through a tight corner, IMHO. More tread on the road than when increasing bike lean angle to make the same corner. And it's easier to adjust your line (by shifting lower body weight) than by steering input.

and

JeffAshe said:
I agree with how it looks. But I strongly disagree (as also stated by others) that this in any way adds to the safety margin. I've been practicing moving my body to the inside of the turn, as opposed to pushing the bike into the corner (as in motocross). It definitely makes a positive difference in how the bike behaves in the tight corners.

IMHO the author was trying to make a point about visibility and visual impressions, but managed to screw-up the information.

In my opinion, the built in safety margin is considered to be that if you misjudge a turn and need additional maneuverability, then you can hang off. Some people would disagree with this. It's easier to hang off then take evasive action than it is to hang off right when you need it, during the turn.

I can see this. BBIII and I had this discussion. He brought up the concern that when you need to hang off is too late to be doing the movement. I have to say he changed my mind on this and I agree with him. What I do now (during sprited riding) is position myself for the hang, but I don't really go all the way off. Just far enough to make the remainder of the movement very fast and easy if I need it.

I practice hanging off, because it is a skill that we should possess, but I don't make it my usual riding style. I tend not to push hard enough on public roads to make it really worthwhile. However, if you don't practice it, then it's not going to do you much good when you need it.

I know that AVON advertises that the more you turn their tire, the more patch you have on the road. If this is the case, it would be better to lean more and not hang off???

This is an interesting discussion to me. It seems to me that to be prepared to hang off is the safest bet. I agree that hanging off in turns gives a bad impression to bystanders. Therefore I like my intermediate move of just being ready. This way, I'm ready to use that safety cushion if I need it.

 

[Geezer]

I like a middle ground between sitting upright and hanging off. I like to move over on the seat and get my weight down in the curve without actually sticking my knee out or hanging off. I started doing this after I read Lee Parks book.

1) It puts me in a position to actually hang off if necessary to recover from getting into the curve a little hotter than planned.

2) It keeps the bike a little more upright for added clearance and greater tire patch.

3) It is fun.

 

[twowheelnut]

Oooooh, goody! Another drag-your-knee thread! Woot! :grin:

I've tried to hang off on the FJR, but with my custom saddle, it's a wee bit hard to do so. Besides, I don't go that fast to necessitate hangin' cheeks.

 

[Scab]

I would have to agree with the geezer. This is one of those things I have been practicing of late. Not a true "hang-off", but more of a shifting of the butt cheeks, positioning more body weight to the inside. This is yet another contributor to my recent crash. A new seat cover that didn't slide too well and a multitude of clothing layers due to the cold prevented me from moving around in the seat as I normally would. When you start analyzing, it can be quite sobering just how little a change it takes to change everything. Just a couple layers of clothing.

 

[OrangevaleFJR]

Oooooh, goody! Another drag-your-knee thread! Woot! :grin:
I've tried to hang off on the FJR, but with my custom saddle, it's a wee bit hard to do so. Besides, I don't go that fast to necessitate hangin' cheeks.

Just drop your elbow toward the pavement then

 

[twowheelnut]

Just drop your elbow toward the pavement then

Ya know, I've been doing that a lot lately. I never noticed much, but I ride stiff-armed and need to relax a bit more in the corners. Practice, practice!

 

[exskibum]

In twisties, I believe in hanging off, but not knee dragging. I get on the balls of my feet on the pegs, slide my ass over and keep my inside knee on the bike, down on top of the back of where the lower fairing is closest to your knee when in an upright position. To me, this gives greatest margin of error and safety, and I like the turn initiation and control feel of riding that inside peg a bit -- kinda feels like riding a carving ski. I don't ride it too hard, unless the turn is a decreasing radius, and then I can really feel the subtlety as both countersteering and inside weight take it smoothly tighter.

As noted, you get more turn out of less lean and therefore, more contact patch. IF I suddenly need to turn in more tightly, I'm in position to put more weight on the inside peg and feel like I'm carving a tighter line. I'm far more on top of my line, quick direction changes and the margin to take the bike lower and tighter if I need to.

A while back, we had a discussion about weighting pegs, and Sparky3008 (now on a Gixxer 1000) argued a point that I've learned from about weighting the outside peg. Weighting the inside peg was no news to me, but he made me think and try what he suggested he'd read and/or been taught in some superbike technique book or school. On sweepers, I may initiate with some weight on inside peg, but I will often keep my body inside and weight the outside peg after I'm into the turn. Sounded counterintuitive when he first mentioned it, but I've been practicing it for months and really like the control it gives at speed. It feels like the bike is on rails -- you can really feel that the amount of turn is controlled by countersteering, but that is held very stable by that weighting of the outside peg. (Do not misunderstand: weight is still inside, as are squared shoulders and butt, but you weight the outside peg from that position.) Anyway, Sparky really taught me something -- I'm on the balls of my feet, butt and shoulders inside, arms relaxed and much more sensitive to the subtleties of peg weighting -- inside and out. It provides a great sense of fine feel and extra control.

So, to answer the question, I agree with Nick Ienatsch about not making a spectacle, as in knee dragging (or going so fast that you HAVE to be hanging off to stay up), but if I'm riding challenging twisties, I'm on the balls of my feet, hanging my butt off some and my shoulders are square and inside, too -- increases the margin of error for quick moves to avoid surprises. Standing it up to go wide is never a problem to do but taking it tighter requires being in a position where you can most effectively do that in a split second, IMO.

 

[tstaff]

If you feel it necessary to hang off your motorcycle in turns on the street, Please post your name, location, & a picture of yourself, so that some of us may identify you & stay as far away from you as possible at forum events or group rides.

If you need to hang off.................Slow down!

 

[exskibum]

If you feel it necessary to hang off your motorcycle in turns on the street, Please post your name, location, & a picture of yourself, so that some of us may identify you & stay as far away from you as possible at forum events or group rides.If you need to hang off.................Slow down!

I think it's important to note what kind of "the street" we are both referring to. About 90% of my riding is in the mountains on two lane twisty roads, where there is occasionally gravel and other obstacles, not much traffic but what there is may be coming at you across the line off a blind corner. You won't ever see me hanging off on city streets or the freeway. But I believe that motorcycle riding is an athletic event in which your body is a part of the machine. The physics require that if your body is not inside, your bike is leaned over more for the same amount of turn in. So, who is safer at the same speed? Someone hanging off and having more available traction due to less severe bike lean, or someone sitting bolt upright and not only having less traction points, but less ability to immediately react to the unexpected hazard?

EDIT: BTW, if what you mean by "hanging off" is trying to look like Nicky Hayden or Rossi on the track, then I agree with you. But I see a lot of guys riding that do nothing but sit bolt upright, or worse: even lean their body the other direction while they tilt the bike under them. Just not how I was taught, which is at a minimum, to be moving your helmet toward the inside mirror.

 

[boogahboogah]

I started sliding on the seat towards the turn back when I had that 850 pound cruiser. It helped me to be able to manage that heavy bugger in turns where I came into the turn a little hot, or to be able to go faster than with the 'upright' stance.

Since I got the FJR, I find I have to remember to get my body moving before the turn, but, when I do that, it allows me to control the turn with body english and bike lean, not just bike lean. Generally the bike stays more upright, I have better control because I'm on the pegs & can move buns or chest or just shoulder to get the balance that I'm comfortable with. Faster, better balance, more control, what's not to like ?

>>If you feel it necessary to hang off your motorcycle in turns on the street, Please post your

>>name, location, & a picture of yourself, so that some of us may identify you & stay as far away >>from you as possible at forum events or group rides.

>>If you need to hang off.................Slow down!

We're not talking about knee dragging or a Nicky Hayden imitation here...

 

[HaulinAshe]

Indeed!!! We are not talking about knee dragging. In fact, I bet that if we had some video of my ass (I shudder at the thought) when I THINK it's hanging off, the video would probably show a slight off-center position of my body. When I "feel" like my leg is hanging low and my knee is about to drag, I'm pretty darn sure that it's nowhere near that close.

But in order to expect any kind of real change in the way the bike behaves, I have to mentally exaggerate my body movements. I weigh 183 lbs. The bike weighs 634 (empty, add bags crap etc.). What I must do to achieve the same result is substantially different than someone that weighs 230 lbs. You cannot compare the two.

Any of you who feel that you should never move your body off-center or use your weight to better control the motorcycle you are operating... Please post your names so that I can be sure to never be behind you or immediately in front of you in any group ride or traffic situation. Furthermore, I strongly recommend you restrict your riding to solo in a zero population area and be sure to have satellite tracking on your cell phone.

Side-to-side movements are only one axis. They just happen to be the most visible. I bet all riders use some type of body movement, i.e. bending arms, turning head, shifting foot position on the pegs. These are all readily acceptable and actually encouraged in the best of safety classes. My body movements are simply not restricted to one axis. I even arch my back and lower my head to lower my C.G. (that's Center of Gravity for the motion impaired).

I guess this hits a little too personal for me. I have spent 43 of my 46 living years becoming more of an extension to the machine and less of an operator. I take great pride in my ability to move and react as needed to place the bike where I want to go, rather than have it manage me. Even after so many years I still have so much to learn about "being one with the machine".

But I will say this... When you manage to make it all come together. When you and the motorcycle become one fluid motion with symmetry and seemingly effortless actions. It is an experience that I would describe as pure Mechanical Poetry.

Please don't put me down for doing something that may look dangerous to you, just because you don't understand it! I don't put you down for riding stiff or stoic because that is the level of control that you are comfortable with and consider safe. I respect your feelings. However, you dangerously assume that what I do is in someway wreckless.

My apologies for being so verbal and emotional about this. It really does strike a nerve. Especially in light of the recent months of practice and commitment given to this very "technique". An old dog learned a new trick, despite years of doing things "the other way". Talk to the guys who recently followed me and ask them if at any moment they saw ANY sign that I was riding beyond my safe ability. I can take that criticism.

Jeff Ashe

 

[Rickster]

I believe the question/forum topic is wrong.

I don't think it's a question of hanging off the bike --- more of a question of committal in the turn.

Typically if you are at max lean angle, hanging off -- you have committed yourself to a line regardless of what you encounter during the turn.

The margin of safety isn't how much room your ass can wiggle or move on the seat, or how much further you knee is to the ground -- it's how much margin of safety do you have to change your line in the event of: {loose gravel, object in road, water, ice, etc. etc.}

So -- whereever your ass is on the seat -- if you left yourself and 'out' in the turn (i.e. a safety margin) other than losing control -- you're doing it right.

 

[exskibum]

Well said, Jeff. Same here -- only been on motorcycles 41 or 42 years. Been on skis a serious 52 of 54 years, so I feel like I know something about body position and carving turns on surfaces that will hold smoothly applied force up to a point and then give way. Exactly like you said -- it's poetry, but I'd add that it's also a little bit of a dance.

Typically if you are at max lean angle, hanging off -- you have committed yourself to a line regardless of what you encounter during the turn.

Yeah, but now you're talking about Rossi or Hayden or Pedrosa or any racer who has a controlled environment with one way traffic. Max lean angle leaves little or no room for braking or anything abrupt in the way of line changes. Being set up for the turn with inside body position is another thing, and allows you to push it lower (go tighter) if necessary. You want to go wide, that's easy -- less countersteer, touch the front brake, or even grab some throttle if you have leeway (i.e., NOT at max lean angle) -- all will stand the bike up to go wide. Which mostly makes my point -- the fact is that if you're off the bike to the inside, the bike does not have to be as far leaned over for the same amount of turn in. And THAT gives you the ability to use that additional margin riding on your contact patches to take evasive action like brake, accelerate or steer it lower (at least, compared to not having that inside body position).

I know that I've never had a street bike at MAX lean angle, unless you're talking about two relatively minor lowsides in '67 and '77. I wonder how many people here have -- and if so, I suspect (and hope) nearly all were on the track.

 

[dcarver]

Well, ol Jeffro is living up to the second line in his signature! . Let me try to explain to those who have only ridden street bikes, and never taken a dirt machine to the limits. We who come from dirt have been trained from day one to move with, over, around, beside the bike. Weight the front, back, inside, outside, carry a leg forward of the peg to enhance the turn in, use the foot and leg as a counterweight, etc. Then we get on street bikes. We ride them with elbows up, sit waay forward on the tank, and still want to kick the leg out around corners. And the technique sucks in the street.

So then we learn good street habits. Go to riding schools, read books. Pratice the skills every time we ride. It gets to be a disease, the search for the perfect ride, the balance, the smoothness.. and when we touch the envelope of doing it right, we know it, you know it too..the suspension is stable, the shifts are snick snick clean, the forks aren't diving wildly, mid course corrections aren't needed.. and it's addictive as crack, we want more of that feeling.

Then, somehow, the realization sets in.. the 'right' feeling more often when I'm paying attention to good riding techniques, e.g. when those manuvers I've praticed become natural and not forced. And it's these very techniques that will always generate, uhh, discussion when more than two riders are in a room.

IMHO, dragging a knee is too much for most all street riding. Sure, if you're alone and playing in the canyons, properly suited, and just want to, hey great, have it. Otherwise, for my daily riding that is much like SkiBums, I shift my buns, lead with shoulder, on the balls of the feet, covering the rear/front brakes, clutch too, then subtly adjust weight and balance as needed to help the machine arc the apex. Wow, I gotta go ride now.. :drag:

In the final analysis, I would much rather ride with a group of guys shifting/weighting and even knee dragging than those that just sit stiff as board in the saddle; I know which group ultimately has the best control of their machine. And should the group speed pick up, and the peer pressue rise, the guyz who ride with testerone and no technique will the be first to crash.

OBTW - I don't care what public thinks about hanging off / knee dragging. I also don't care how the Harley guyz look either. What matters is control and all the elements that contribute to a safe, brisk, successful ride.

Just my .02 worth. (so who put the freakin nickle in the machine, anyway?)

 

[Scab]

Indeed!!! We are not talking about knee dragging. In fact, I bet that if we had some video of my ass (I shudder at the thought) when I THINK it's hanging off, the video would probably show a slight off-center position of my body. When I "feel" like my leg is hanging low and my knee is about to drag, I'm pretty darn sure that it's nowhere near that close.
Talk to the guys who recently followed me and ask them if at any moment they saw ANY sign that I was riding beyond my safe ability. I can take that criticism.

Jeff Ashe

After watching Jeff haulin Ashe, I can attest to his utter control of the machine. It gave new definition to the terminology "fluid dynamics." And at no time is he actually "hanging off" the machine ala Hayden style. He is, however, an active participant in the movements of the machine. His machine was by far the smoothest and most controled during the day of riding, while executing the same exact roads as the rest of us. Before anyone gets too critical of descriptions, it would be well serving to follow some of the guys and actually observe these so called "hanging off" techniques. I, for one, hope to gain much more time behind the likes of Jeff. Much can be learned.

 

[evil_henchman]

I, for one, hope to gain much more time behind the likes of Jeff. Much can be learned.

Uhhh Jeff, you might want to keep an eye on your 6 when scab's around...

:lol:

 

[HaulinAshe]

Uhhh Jeff, you might want to keep an eye on your 6 when scab's around...
:lol:

Dude! have you seen his wife? I ain't his type. Besides, my ass is way too scarey to attract anything with vision.

Seriously though, I do appreciate his kind words.

 

[UberKul]

In the final analysis, I would much rather ride with a group of guys shifting/weighting and even knee dragging than those that just sit stiff as board in the saddle; I know which group ultimately has the best control of their machine. And should the group speed pick up, and the peer pressue rise, the guyz who ride with testerone and no technique will the be first to crash.

My thoughts exactly. I ride for the feel of gracefully guiding my bike at entertaining speeds through the turns. Positioning myself so that the flow and transitions feel seamless and controlled. Depending on the road, time of day and level of acceptable risk, that could mean I have one asscheek floating in the wind. The only time I feel the need to scoot my ass on a group ride is when I'm not familiar with the road and need to buffer in the ability to crank in some more lean angle. I ride the bike with my body, not my arms.

Please put me in the lean more body now, save some bike for later column.

 

[dcarver]

One of the guidelines in the pace is:"Don't hang off in the corners or tuck in on the straights. Sitting sedately on the bike looks safer and reduces unwanted attention. It also provides a built-in safety margin. "

As I think more on this, I wonder what audience Nick was referring to? The LEO's? The general public? Or who?

I remember back when I was strictly on the Harley, I'd see a guy in full leathers and think 'The idiot; he has to ride way too fast, he's always taking chances, he's sure to be an organ donor.' BTW - don't rag on me for riding Harleys.. I wear the ATGATT no matter what propels my 2 wheels.

Back to topic.. so my impression was, 'if the guy is wearing a full leather race suit' then HE knows he's taking too many chances, I know he is too, the LEO's do, and what kind of attention does that draw? An analogy.. You pull up to the stop light along side a new full tilt Porsche. You look over, admiring the sleek lines, look in the driver's window, hoping to feast your eyes upon a beautiful blond. What you see, however, is some person wearing full Nomex fire gear, a full face helmet complete with oxygen supply.. What would you think? Probably that he was planning to play a little too fast on the street.. Otherwise, why wear all that stuff?

Perhaps the article is somewhat outdated. Now that the general public has seen more riders in full leather road race attire, it's become 'normal'. If true, then if more riders 'hung off' in the corners, that too would become 'normal', or the standard.

I just can't agree with the idea of using a riding technique perfected by Mike Hailwood, in the 60's, should be the standard of the modern street rider, especially after it's been proven that hanging off is the safer technique. Especially just 'for the sake of appearance'. Function over style.

Woo Woo.

EDIT - typo