To Syn or not to Syn

[MikeYork5]

Hi -

I am sure this one has been beat to death, but I am new to the family (and this forum), as I just (last weekend) picked up an 04 FJR with low mileage. I wanted an 04 because I had to have the Silver color, I think it looks great. I got the Owners Manual with the bike and bought a Service Manual (on ebay - a pretty good deal @ $42. I bought the manual a couple of weeks ago. Figured if I bought the manual it would in part FORCE me to go through with the deal of buying the bike - what logic huh), and being realively competent with a wrench I hope Im good to go. My question, any comments or thoughts on Synthetic Oil? Should I give it a go or stick with Dino. I probably won't be turning any large amount of miles so probably will be changing it every 3 -5,000 miles no matter what (once or twice a year). I know, its probably a personal preference thing - BUT - just curious to hear what some of you seasoned vets have to say! Regards -

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

As my old buddy, Bill Fuller, used to say: "It only costs a little more to go first class."

 

[Ignacio]

Yeah, it has beaten to death, hence this thread being moved immediately to Never-ending-pointless-recurring area.

Oil is like religion around these parts.

My personal choice is to stick with the stock Yammy oil until or unless I'm so far passed the point of ticking that I might change my mind. It's almost superstitious, but in the SMALL chance I have a ticker it's personally my logic that it would be less likely Mother Yamaha will quibble.

Another point. I wouldn't brag you snagged a manual off of eBay for 42 cents. It's a bootleg, copyright infringement, and illegal. I'm not judging at all...as I might have referred to one myself when not looking at a legal one. It's just that it might affect your kharma somehow and increase the cosmic chances of you getting tickitis....

Welcome to the board.

 

[FJRottie]

Beaten to death is right. Synthetic may make it longer to its next change but they both do the job just fine. It is all a religious movement or what pappy use to say.

Long story short, use whatever makes your pubies straighten out.

Just get a good temp range on whatever oil you use.

The manual suggests 20W-40 but others like something that is 10W-50 or a wider range like 5W-50.

Those lower numbers may help on startup in the a.m.

 

[MikeYork5]

Yeah kinda like I figured --- potato...patato, tomato...tamato. As far as the viscosity goes - Im in So Cal so I don't believe I am going to need quite the range you need up there in the tundra FJ. Errrr did I say I got a manual off ebay....errrr...hmmmmmm., cough stutter....... I meant to say I got a manual (I don't need any more negative kharma).

 

[fjr]

"Once or twice a year changes" I'd opt for syn. IMHO.

 

[afterburn]

Regular dyno oil will be worthless in less than 1,000 miles in a motorcycle due to the gearbox running in the same oil. Do your engine a favor, and get synth or synth-blend at the very least.

For a good read on the how and why.

 

[FJRSTAR]

I got the Owners Manual with the bike and bought a Service Manual (on ebay - a pretty good deal @ $42. I bought the manual a couple of weeks ago.

Another point. I wouldn't brag you snagged a manual off of eBay for 42 cents. It's a bootleg, copyright infringement, and illegal. I'm not judging at all...as I might have referred to one myself when not looking at a legal one. It's just that it might affect your kharma somehow and increase the cosmic chances of you getting tickitis....

Ignacio, did he say 42 cents or $42?

 

[sparky3008]

Regular dyno oil will be worthless in less than 1,000 miles in a motorcycle due to the gearbox running in the same oil. Do your engine a favor, and get synth or synth-blend at the very least.
For a good read on the how and why.

Semi-synthetics" are oils which are a blend of petroleum oil and no more than 30% synthetic oil. If the manufacturer adds no more than 30% synthetic oil and does not change the additive package, they do not have to recertify the oil. These days, since everyone has agreed that Group III base oils are "synthetic," I'm not sure "semi-synthetic" means anything at all. The manufacturers love this stuff: it costs about 15% more to make the oil, and they get to charge about double. I don't recommend semi-synthetics. Save your money and take your kids to McDonalds.

This is from the forementioned link.

Also look at how the article mentions oil refining after the year 2000.

It also mentions group III oils and a comparison to synthetic.

After reading the article it supports sticking with dino oil more than converting someone to synthetic...

 

[rocketdoc]

@MikeYork5, welcome to the board. Great place to hang out. Oh yeh, sometimes people with rag on you for something without even re-reading you post, but that is rare. $42 for the service manual is a good price, enjoy it. As far as dino vs. full synth. I changed over after 8,000mile to full synthetic, and immediately found the shifting to be smoother. I do a lot of big runs so it makes sense to go with synthetic.

Glad you like that Cerulean Silver yes it is very cool. Looks like the '06 AE model is the same colour too. Take care on the new beast Mike, she can really pull and blur the landscape in a hurry.

 

[MikeYork5]

Thanks all, like I said Potato -Patato - and Rocketdoc, I believe the 06 AE (what the hell - no clutch lever - gimmie a break) is Silver and the A is Blue, although a darker blue than the 05. I saw them both at the International Motorcycle Show in Long Beach last month. Toecutter thanks again for the info on the GIVI and - schedule permitting I wil ltry to attend in Reno - put some faces to the names!

 

[Mike-H]

A bunch of the cycle rags have covered this over the last few months, I still believe either or as long as your oil changes, are consistant....but whatever I tell you & $1.25 buys you a cup of coffee up here... :bigeyes:

 

[LSUBOY]

Bottom Line from what I have read:

Both oils are equal up to 3 or 5 thousand miles with synthetic giving better shifting of the clutch. Beyond that, synthetic gets the nod because it resists breakdown longer than regular moto oil.

BUT:

If you will be changing your oil at the 3 to 5 thousand mark, then you probably should use regular motorcycle oil. I only use synthetics {Golden Spectro} when I am on a long cross country trip or such and when I get back home I change back to my old standard of a $2.00 Wal-Mart Super Tech 6607 filter and Shell Rotella T 15 W 40 oil.

My 97 Royal has 98,000 miles using that combo and runs like a top!

 

[afterburn]

Regular dyno oil will be worthless in less than 1,000 miles in a motorcycle due to the gearbox running in the same oil. Do your engine a favor, and get synth or synth-blend at the very least.
For a good read on the how and why.

Semi-synthetics" are oils which are a blend of petroleum oil and no more than 30% synthetic oil. If the manufacturer adds no more than 30% synthetic oil and does not change the additive package, they do not have to recertify the oil. These days, since everyone has agreed that Group III base oils are "synthetic," I'm not sure "semi-synthetic" means anything at all. The manufacturers love this stuff: it costs about 15% more to make the oil, and they get to charge about double. I don't recommend semi-synthetics. Save your money and take your kids to McDonalds.

This is from the forementioned link.

Also look at how the article mentions oil refining after the year 2000.

It also mentions group III oils and a comparison to synthetic.

After reading the article it supports sticking with dino oil more than converting someone to synthetic...

You're not it reading correctly. Group III oils are synthetic oils with a dyno base oil. These are not considered dyno oils.

If you're using a standard automotive petroleum oil in your motorcycle and running it for more than 1,500 miles, you are taking your chances. By 1,500 miles, the VII additives are pretty much all broken down, and the oil has therefore thinned out enormously....

Nor do I wish to make the bearings run in 10w-40 oil that's broken down to 10w-15 oil.

...

Your engine will not explode if you never use synthetic oils. However, any of these choices puts additional strain on your engine. You buy $65 tires for your car that last 45,000 miles, and $100 tires for your bike that last 8,000 miles. Why on earth would you try to save $5 on each oil change to buy an oil that can't hold up in a motorcycle engine?

If anything, the article promotes using the synthetic, with very good reasons why. It also favors commercial diesel synthetic oils like Shell Rotella T syn as they are readily available and cheap.

The best oils are pure syn diester oils (group V oils), but those are hard to get, expensive and the difference between the above is small.

 

[sparky3008]

Regular dyno oil will be worthless in less than 1,000 miles in a motorcycle due to the gearbox running in the same oil. Do your engine a favor, and get synth or synth-blend at the very least.
For a good read on the how and why.

Semi-synthetics" are oils which are a blend of petroleum oil and no more than 30% synthetic oil. If the manufacturer adds no more than 30% synthetic oil and does not change the additive package, they do not have to recertify the oil. These days, since everyone has agreed that Group III base oils are "synthetic," I'm not sure "semi-synthetic" means anything at all. The manufacturers love this stuff: it costs about 15% more to make the oil, and they get to charge about double. I don't recommend semi-synthetics. Save your money and take your kids to McDonalds.

This is from the forementioned link.

Also look at how the article mentions oil refining after the year 2000.

It also mentions group III oils and a comparison to synthetic.

After reading the article it supports sticking with dino oil more than converting someone to synthetic...

You're not it reading correctly. Group III oils are synthetic oils with a dyno base oil. These are not considered dyno oils.

If you're using a standard automotive petroleum oil in your motorcycle and running it for more than 1,500 miles, you are taking your chances. By 1,500 miles, the VII additives are pretty much all broken down, and the oil has therefore thinned out enormously....

Nor do I wish to make the bearings run in 10w-40 oil that's broken down to 10w-15 oil.

...

Your engine will not explode if you never use synthetic oils. However, any of these choices puts additional strain on your engine. You buy $65 tires for your car that last 45,000 miles, and $100 tires for your bike that last 8,000 miles. Why on earth would you try to save $5 on each oil change to buy an oil that can't hold up in a motorcycle engine?

If anything, the article promotes using the synthetic, with very good reasons why. It also favors commercial diesel synthetic oils like Shell Rotella T syn as they are readily available and cheap.

The best oils are pure syn diester oils (group V oils), but those are hard to get, expensive and the difference between the above is small.

Group III aproach syn but are not.

Group III oils have properties approaching or equaling synthetics, so long as the temperature is above about 40°. Group III based oils are often claimed to not perform as well as synthetics in a couple ways: their low temperature performance is not nearly as good, it is sometimes claimed on the basis of the "ball bearing test" that they offer lower impact resistance, and since their flash point is slightly lower it is claimed that they burn off more easily. However, most modern engines are water-cooled, so it's hard to see how the slightly better flash points of the synthetics ever come into play. I personally don't make a habit of dropping a handful of ball bearing into my oil pan, so I'm not completely clear on what the impact tests mean to me. The low temperature performance of the Group III oils can be improved enormously by blending in a relatively small amount of synthetic base stock and other additives.

In the late 1990s, Castrol started selling an oil made from Group III base oil and called it SynTec Full Synthetic. Mobil sued Castrol, asserting that this oil was not synthetic, but simply a highly refined petroleum oil, and therefore it was false advertising to call it synthetic. In 1999, Mobil lost their lawsuit. It was decided that the word "synthetic" was a marketing term and referred to properties, not to production methods or ingredients. Castrol continues to make SynTec out of Group III base oils, that is highly purified mineral oil with most all of the cockroach bits removed.

THe last paragraph shows that court deemed them ok to be marketed as synthetic but they are in fact not. And they are much cheaper than "real" synthetics.

If i am still reading it wrong please show me how just don't accuse me??

 

[afterburn]

Jeez, sometimes you're a PITA, you know that?

Group III oils are synthetic by all means and account except by pure scientific definition. They are sold as synthetic. Nobody that picks up a gallon of oil reads the labels or specifications to see if they are getting real synthetic by the scientific definition or by the legal definition.

So if someone asks which is better, dyno or syn, it is a matter of Group II or below, or Group III and up.

Group II oils or less blow in m'cycles, group III and up are good, where group V is the best and most expensive. Best bang for the buck are group III commercial diesel oils that are API CI-4 certified.

Jeez...

 

[sparky3008]

Jeez, sometimes you're a PITA, you know that?
Group III oils are synthetic by all means and account except by pure scientific definition. They are sold as synthetic. Nobody that picks up a gallon of oil reads the labels or specifications to see if they are getting real synthetic by the scientific definition or by the legal definition.

So if someone asks which is better, dyno or syn, it is a matter of Group II or below, or Group III and up.

Group II oils or less blow in m'cycles, group III and up are good, where group V is the best and most expensive. Best bang for the buck are group III commercial diesel oils that are API CI-4 certified.

Jeez...

Yes, I know I am a PITA no argument there but it is not my objective.

You state that they are syn but again not what the article says. It specifically says that Group III are just better refined dyno oil to get all the impurities out. It is cheaper than "real" synthetics and almost as good.

True synthetic have a very very low temp but Group III have 5w and 0w.

Again I don't get any of what you say from the article. If what you say is correct that may very well be but again I don't get it from the article presented???

 

[Ignacio]

Ignacio, did he say 42 cents or $42?

I guess he did say $42.

I assumed it was cents and a good deal since most of the bootlegs on eBay go for about 3 bucks.

....not that I know or anything

I just know my kharma feels slightly below it's optimal level h34r: and I have pangs of guilt everytime I forget the torque values of the wheel and head to my computer.

Maybe Yamaha started a new program of offering their manuals on eBay

.......

Meanwhile, I am so glad Warchild thought up the Never-Ending Pointless Recurring Threads. It makes it so much easier to decide which forums to wade through.

 

[SkooterG]

Well afterburn, I am going to be a PITA also. I am with sparky3008. Group III oils are NOT synthetic oils. They are highly refined conventional oils that mimic true synthetic properties.

And as for your assertion:

Regular dyno oil will be worthless in less than 1,000 miles in a motorcycle due to the gearbox running in the same oil.

Horsecock!!!!

You know, I used to be a big synthetic fan. Then I was shown the light by Jestal. Now I see the truth, and realize that while synthetics are obviously better oils in some respects than coventional oils, the environment and conditions the FJR's engine operates under really never reach the extremes where a synthetic is an advantage. (Now my Volkswagon TDi is another matter.)

So why bother? And pay more?

Oh yeah......"Peace of mind".

Well, in that case, change your synthetic oil every 1000 miles. No, every 500 miles. No, wait, every 100 miles. For crying out loud, where does it all end?!?!

Bueller?!?!?!

For a really GREAT read on oil, go to the link below. Then grasshopper, you shall see the light.

Jestal EZBoard oil thread