To Syn or not to Syn

[deagle]

Do whatever makes you feel comfortable. Nothing wrong with using Yammie oil for the life of the bike.

I changed to synthetic (Amsoil) and still change the oil way too often. Throwing away money but I me sleep better at night. Of course, I also change my tires way too soon.

Your anal level may vary.

 

[afterburn]

Skooter, Sparky, let me quote myself.

Group III oils are synthetic by all means and account except by pure scientific definition. They are sold as synthetic.

They are SOLD as being synthetic. Whether or not they are in the true sense of the word doesn't make a bit of difference, since a consumer can't tell from the package!

Second, I appreciate jesters comments and he is right, but he also ignores that a m'cycle engine has it's gearbox running in the engine oil. A car does not. This makes the stresses on the oil a whole different thing between the 2 vehicles. The gearbox will shread the long VII molecules, lowering the weight, making it thinner and reducing lube props. Bad Thing. In other words, the oil becomes useless for that particular application.

For conventional dino oils this happens very quickly. With diester true synths this barely happens at all, as it barely contains any VII molecules additives. And synthetically enhanced dino oils are somewhere in between.

 

[sparky3008]

Ok, I am with ya on that.

Now for argument sake can anyone list a price for:

Regular dyno oil say Group II?

Dyno oil sold as synthetic Group III?

True Synthetic?

Reason I would like to see if the price difference between Group II and III are as far apart as a "true synthetic"...

 

[radman]

 

[twowheelnut]

Canola? CANOLA!!!!!! Are you fooking nuts?! Extra virgin olive oil is the only way to go. Barring that, Astroglide or KY will do in a pinch. Really. I read it on Iggy's website.

 

[donaldb]

I just switched to synblend Golden spectro at 5000 miles, only a couple weeks ago. I could tell an immediate difference in the gear box, the bike shifts way smoother now.

 

[afterburn]

Ok, I am with ya on that.
Now for argument sake can anyone list a price for:

Regular dyno oil say Group II?

Dyno oil sold as synthetic Group III?

True Synthetic?

Reason I would like to see if the price difference between Group II and III are as far apart as a "true synthetic"...

No, the 'fake' synths are only slightly more expensive than dino oil, since the amount of expensive synthetic additives is minimal.

Diester synths (group V) are very expensive, due to their manufacturing process. Think about the price of a gallon of dino for a quart of diester synth.

Personally, I run Motul 300V full synthetic (group V diester) 10W40 in my bikes, and I change oil aprox every 6500 miles. Comes out clean.

In my old CBR1000F I once had, I could tell the difference. When I was running dino oil, after about 750-1000km I could tell by the change in engine noise and vibrations, the oil was deteriorating. It was burning a little oil (unrelated), and when I would add a bit of oil to get the level up again, it was again fine for about 250km. Change the oil, all fine for another 1000km. When I changed to synth, no more of this between 10,000km change intervals. Very unscientific I know, but it's my personal experience with dino and synth.

 

[SkooterG]

Oh, these threads!!!!! Sometimes I am just in the mood..................

Personally, I run Motul 300V full synthetic (group V diester) 10W40 in my bikes, and I change oil aprox every 6500 miles. Comes out clean.

Granted, you have the super-duper liquid gold diester group V whale jiz, which is THE BEST. But what makes you think you can safely extend your oil drain?

If you would have read Jestal's most excellent posts from the thread I linked earlier, you would know that according to him (and all his research), its not the cleanliness, or the degradation of the base number or the stock oil, that is the problem, but the depletion of the additive package, specifically the anti-wear additives, that generally determine an oil's useful life. And your whale **** has no more anit-wear additives than any other quality conventional oil.

So why the extended drain?

Very unscientific I know

Agreed.

Give me objective, unbiased fact from testing and research. Not conjecture, guesses, theory, or personal experiences.

 

[sparky3008]

My take on some of these type of threads is marketing against reality.

Some just can't decipher the crap from reality.

You do know Ford is BETTER than Dodge or Chevy..

I mean Chevy is Better.

No Dodge is....

My Dodge pulled a ford that was pulling a chevy that was pulling another Dodge Up hill both ways backwards. Great....

 

[afterburn]

But what makes you think you can safely extend your oil drain?

Because I personally feel it's ok and doesn't hurt my engine. I have had plenty bikes. I changed oil at 10,000km intervals on all of them. All of them went well over 100,000km before I sold them. And none of them experienced any excessive wear and tear.

And, leaving the personal opinions out of it, since you don't like em : EU manual calls for 10,000km/6250mi intervals, instead of the 4000mi intervals of the US manual.

 

[odot]

I am about to change over to amsoil....I'll let you all know how much better it runs afterwards. At about 4000 miles and in need of a tuneup.

 

[SkooterG]

And, leaving the personal opinions out of it, since you don't like em : EU manual calls for 10,000km/6250mi intervals, instead of the 4000mi intervals of the US manual.

That's because those silly Yurapeens from "Old Europe" ride like *******, and don't need to change their oil as often.







Oh ****! Did I just write that?!?!?!? How's that for a personal opinion?

Bad SkooterG, Baaaaaad!!!!!

Really, I love you guys, man!

 

[afterburn]

Skoot, come on over. I'm sure we'll have fun at the beers and the riding in between too.

 

[charismaticmegafauna]

afterburn: The gearbox will shread the long VII molecules, lowering the weight, making it thinner and reducing lube props.

afterburn: Personally, I run Motul 300V full synthetic (group V diester) 10W40 in my bikes, and I change oil aprox every 6500 miles. Comes out clean.

A little clarification needed: (all other things being equal) lube oil in an engine (or just in the atmoshere, once out of the container) oxidizes (becomes thicker, especially with attendant heat -- think "cooking"). Your annecdotal determinations may differ from the actual viscosity a labratory would tell you when checked at the proper temp with a viscometer. The most "basic" of oils contain a minimum of R&O (rust and oxidation inhibitor) just for this reason. The gears may, in fact, shred those long molecules (as you state) but, that may not offset the ultimate oxidation of the lube oil -- more probably, a loss in additives. There's also a common belief that "heavier" (thicker) is better -- not so. The proper viscosity (the molecule size that fits the clearances) is what's needed. How do think big oil molecules are going to find their way down those frail FJR exhaust guides? "Comes out clean" usually means a low level of detergent/dispersant additives or that, for some reason, those additives were ineffective in your application. Usually, the more d/d additive -- the more discoloration as the by-products of combustion, etc are carried in suspension in the oil. IMO, oil drain intervals have been dtermined (when analyzed for that) by inability to filter out insoluble contaminants (even after repeated and increasingly often filter changes) thus causing increases in wear metals -- the oil just gets too dirty. YMMV

 

[LSUBOY]

Okay Feejers,

I've decided to put my money where my mouth is {www.blackstone-labs.com

and click "motorcycle} and get my oil analyzed.

I will be ordering their kit and getting two types of oil checked over a period of time. Oil # 1 will be Rotella T Dino and oil # 2 will be their synthetic version.

My tests will run something like this: Start with the dino version and get it checked at 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5,500 & 6,000 miles.

After which I will send in synthetic samples starting at 5000, 5500, 6000, 6500 & 7000 miles.

If, during any of the tests I am told that the oil has expired, etc. I will stop using that oil at that point and consider it to have been good at the point in which Blackstone said it was good.

FNG Guys always do it right!

 

[C&C]

To LSUBOY, that sounds like a good experiment to me. It would be nice to see all samples at statistally the same evaluation numbers but I guess we'll just have to wait for the results. :thumbup:

 

[Lone_Ranger]

I read the calsci article a while back and he has done some good research. Rather than try to summarize or paraphrase what he is saying, if you are really interested in what oil to use, just read the article on a rainy day when you aren't riding...

My choice, after reading it, is this quote (taken out of context, not a shortcut to reading the whole article):

from Mark Lawrence in the calsci article:  Three synthetics stand out from the rest: Mobil Delvac 1, Mobil-1 SUV and Shell Rotella T Synthetic....Shell Rotella-T Synthetic is available at Wal-Mart for $13 / gallon, so I consider this the motor oil of choice.

All that said, I think one more quote from Bill Murray in Meatballs is also right on target:

It just doesn't matter....It just doesn't matter....It just doesn't matter.......

A fiery 145 horses with the speed of light, a cloud of dust and a hearty "Hi Ho Silver!" The Lone Ranger. "Hi Ho Silver, away!"

 

[Luke]

LSUBOY,

Read the link ScooterG posted above about jestal's posts. His analysis is the best I have found anywhere. He states that the base oil analysis doesn't check the degradation of the anti-wear additives and threfore is useless to determine how long to wait till drain/change-out. Don't want you to waste your money....buy more farkles instead.

 

[jestal]

afterburn: The gearbox will shread the long VII molecules, lowering the weight, making it thinner and reducing lube props.

afterburn: Personally, I run Motul 300V full synthetic (group V diester) 10W40 in my bikes, and I change oil aprox every 6500 miles. Comes out clean.

A little clarification needed: (all other things being equal) lube oil in an engine (or just in the atmoshere, once out of the container) oxidizes (becomes thicker, especially with attendant heat -- think "cooking"). Your annecdotal determinations may differ from the actual viscosity a labratory would tell you when checked at the proper temp with a viscometer. The most "basic" of oils contain a minimum of R&O (rust and oxidation inhibitor) just for this reason. The gears may, in fact, shred those long molecules (as you state) but, that may not offset the ultimate oxidation of the lube oil -- more probably, a loss in additives. There's also a common belief that "heavier" (thicker) is better -- not so. The proper viscosity (the molecule size that fits the clearances) is what's needed. How do think big oil molecules are going to find their way down those frail FJR exhaust guides? "Comes out clean" usually means a low level of detergent/dispersant additives or that, for some reason, those additives were ineffective in your application. Usually, the more d/d additive -- the more discoloration as the by-products of combustion, etc are carried in suspension in the oil. IMO, oil drain intervals have been dtermined (when analyzed for that) by inability to filter out insoluble contaminants (even after repeated and increasingly often filter changes) thus causing increases in wear metals -- the oil just gets too dirty. YMMV

The fundamental basis for most oil change intervals is the depletion of the antiwear additive in the oil. The antiwear package or ZDP is sacrificial in operation and does get used up over time.i.e... the concentration of ZDP in the oil becomes less and less. When it depletes to a certain point then the oil is "used up" and needs to be changed.

Other reasons for changing include pentane insoluables...i.e...wear metals, silicon from dust/dirt intrusion, gasoline contamination, water contamination, soot contamination, acid build up, oxidation, etc....

All the factors depend on the type of driving/operating schedule. This is why it is impossible to define a specific change interval for all situations. In some situations, like short trips, water and gas contamination may be the limiting factor. In long trip operation, the eventual ZDP depletion will likely the be limiting factor. Towing trailers and high oil temps might cause oxidation to be the limiting factor. Etc....etc.....

If the oil analysis does not provide the percentage of the ZDP remaining in the oil then it is pretty pointless.

 

[TheRepairMan]