Trying to find my Pace

[smokerider]

I find that I get silly, even at my age, and will push the envelope on most any machine. So I got a CBR250R, put rearsets and lowered clipons and *that* bike I wring the little neck off of. Just got back on an FJR but it's my second, and I've always found the FJR a bit 'daunting' so I'm not pushing this one.

FJR, both past and present, I never plan to be above 50% on, and that has saved my *** when hitting unexpected gravel, oil, mud, etc. The CBR gets pushed 90 and I've had to kick out and suck up the seat a few times because of rider error or crap in the road.

Take it easy, enjoy, if you gotta rip it up, find a little sport bike to play with on the off days

 

[RossKean]

^^^

More fun to ride a slow bike fast than to ride a fast bike slow.

 

[SacramentoMike]

I guess I have to add my couple cents to this discussion too. I've read "The Pace" before, and I suppose most of us have, and it makes good sense for what it is. But you have to understand--quoting the author: "If you're getting the idea The Pace is a relaxing, noncompetitive way to ride with a group, you are right." He does NOT present it as a "How to Ride Your Motorcycle in All Circumstances." Getting through fun roads in a group, not racing, not competitively, free of ego and will to win, is the goal of this philosophy, as I understand it.

I went back and read both articles to find the context for this statement: "The comment that stuck out to me in the Pace article this time is that you shouldn’t hang off much because you’ll have to be going too fast to make it fun for you." Sorry, but I can't find that comment. I have to assume it's something you "read into" what he wrote, possibly this:

"So, The Pace talks about not hanging off, first as a speed control, and second to appear less guilty to officers of the law. I shift my body to the inside of the bike, moving my head a bit to load the inside footpeg to help the bike turn, saving the big hang-off move for unexpected gravel/hazards or a surprisingly tight corner. Relaxed and mellow and innocent, sir."



So he does shift his weight to the inside, leaning in on corners, as the Parks course teaches. He never says you shouldn't, I think he's saying you don't need to and shouldn't lean in aggressively when riding in a group for enjoyment. Frankly, I always lean in to some degree in corners, because it increases my safety margin--keeping the bike more upright, with more braking available, etc. And that's what I think about as I go through tight corners: not more speed, but keeping the bike more vertical. And like Ienatch, "saving the big hang-off move" for surprises in the road. And by doing it all the time, I'm much more ready to do it when I might need to--unexpectedly.


"My Lee Parks instructor said he won’t ride a bike on the street anymore because he can’t do it safely and enjoy it."



That last comment, if it's accurately quoted, just seems bizarre. I really would like to know if Lee Parks himself would endorse it, or frankly keep that guy teaching his program. The guy can't ride on the street without trying to race?? Glad he doesn't ride a bike on the street anymore. (And IMO, shouldn't be teaching a street riding course at all.)

We've probably all read a lot of "how to ride" books and articles, but they all seem to have the same weakness: it's usually very hard to understand exactly what the author means, from what he writes, or to know exactly how to apply it. Articles about countersteering, trail braking, compressing the forks to prepare for corners, etc., are too often just freaking confusing, with the danger of maybe doing something wrong, trying to apply what you thought was intended. (The other danger is that articles like this often contradict different articles about the same thing. Which one is right?)

We all need to save some of the "ten tenths" of our ability for the emergencies. And we should all probably remember that our ten tenths (OK, most of us) is far short of our bikes' ten tenths. We should be able to have plenty of fun far short of the red line. Hope we all do.

 

[Goodman4]

I've enjoyed reading all these comments today. It seems like everybody is looking at the issue as I had hoped. I like struggling on a topic with experienced opinionated people. Lots of different angles but you are all giving me good things to think about. Good stuff. And if I make somebody think a little more and avoid an accident by struggling with me on the topic, then hooray for all of us.

A couple answers - It has nothing to do with peer pressure, and I seldom ride in any kind of group. It's also not about raw speed, but how much lean to take in the corners. When I ride my little country road it is very much like Uncle Hud talks about in his post. I've got a 25 mile route to and from work that has several nice turns that I try to hold the speed in the corners with no braking. I've been increasing the corner speed slowly over time. I've been doing that by hanging off more and more (even though I'm not hanging off very much at all compared to a track rider) until I've started questioning whether I'm cornering too hard for my ability. And I say 70% of my ability, but that is probably 70% of my cautious, analytical personality's ability. It is likely 40% of the bikes and my tires ability. But how do you know? How do you feel like you are stretching when the cost of a mistake is so great? The track day taught me that I don't lean much when in my mind I feel like I'm about to drag a knee, but still I learned I'm a better rider than I thought I was.

To Sacramento Mike - You quote the middle of the right part but I don't think I'm reading a lot into it:

"Roadracers hang off their bikes to run less lean angle and street riders can do that, too, except that I’ve seen riders hang off their bikes on the street and then increase their speed until they’re running “fun” lean angles. Because of hanging off, these “fun” lean angles can be at extremely high speeds. When a surprise happens, the extra speed is a killer. Dragging a knee on the street is insane and a clear indication of mistaking public road for the track. The track is the place with an ambulance 60 seconds away … room to run off … tech inspection … corner workers … rules governing direction … no oncoming traffic. Do I sound preachy? I hope so.

So, The Pace talks about not hanging off, first as a speed control, and second to appear less guilty to officers of the law. I shift my body to the inside of the bike, moving my head a bit to load the inside footpeg to help the bike turn, saving the big hang-off move for unexpected gravel/hazards or a surprisingly tight corner. Relaxed and mellow and innocent, sir.

All that said, I have two friends who hang off in the corners and have the discipline to run sane speeds. Can an article teach judgment and discipline? No, hospitals teach that."

The part I bolded is what I caught myself starting to do. Maybe I would have been more accurate to say "you shouldn’t hang off too much because you might have to be going too fast to make it fun for you." I'll stick by that paraphrase of his point. You can even find comments on the webpage where Nick posted The Pace 2.0 where the criticism is that people are mad at him for saying you shouldn't lean that much in street riding.

I don't ride like a hooligan. I try not to take unnecessary chances. I've not even had a ticket on a motorcycle since I got back into riding in 2007 even though I ride most of the year and almost every day. But I still feel the need to push MY limits. That's part of what makes it fun for me. I kind of like the suggestion of getting a smaller bike to slow things down instead of the cruiser idea. I had been thinking about an FJ09 or a FZ01 but maybe even something with less hp would fit my needs.

Carver, I've been banned by my wife from dirt bikes because of the accident I had on my nephew's dirt bike in the field behind our house. It was a very minor fall and if I was younger I'd have got up and kept riding. I did get up but found I had broken ribs and a broken ankle. The plate in my ankle reminds me I don't have young bones anymore.

Some of this searching was brought on by seeing some riders that I have great respect for on this forum have accidents where they are pretty seriously injured. I can't do that to my family and my work.

 

[Redfish Hunter]

You said, "I can't do that in my family and my work."

I ask, Why NOT?

When I crashed my brand new, 13 hours old 2015 FJR I was working 7 nights a week, 12 hours a night. My job needed me. My family needed me. I had great personal and professional responsibility and my very selfish hobby had just rendered me useless. Despair, doubt, depression...

You have to do what is "Right" for everyone. Is it "right" for your family if you are unhappy without the adrenaline rush of your motorcycle? Is it "right" for your family if you are not calm and relaxed after that adrenaline rush? Where is the middle ground, the compromise, The Right Thing for everyone?

My wife is not a fan of the motorcycle. However, Mrs. Redfish knows that the motorcycle calms the beast within me and she knows I am a better husband and father because of what riding does for me. I gave up about 10 degrees of lean angle because I have a wife I am still in love with and a son who deserves a father. You have to find your own Pace.

 

[HotRodZilla]

RFH said, "Calms the beast within me." **** just got real!!

 

[Goodman4]

I'm not sure if I ticked Redfish off or if he's defending me. Or both.

I think my last sentence was a little bit full of crap, cause I wouldn't ride if I really couldn't take that risk. And I certainly wouldn't drag my precious wife across the country and risk her health on our wonderful rides. I believe risk is part of life and without risk we shrivel up and die a boring meaningless life.

Smoothness. I agree totally. Yet my dilemma...

I didn't feel any need to do those corners as fast as I do now before I took that Total Control class and did a track day. I believe that as I improve I will continue to push myself on my little safe back road of sharp corners until I find my limit in a hospital or recalibrate as Redfish says he did. I argue that Nick Ienatch is not just teaching group riding in The Pace, but how to recalibrate. You recalibrate by changing your goals. He sets the metric for group riding / all street riding to no longer be pushing your limits, but to be finding the perfect pace. The goal is to enjoy the ride. We competitive types struggle with that because we have to be improving. Maybe riding is like golf for men because we compete with our own skills, more than with others. That is far tougher competition which is why golf is so addictive and frustrating at the same time.

I think I know me pretty well. If I get a track bike, I will push it until I have an accident. At the track day at Barber at the orientation they were having people raise their hands for how many track days they had done. Then they had people raise their hands for those that had wrecked there. I think 95% of the riders raised their hands. Good track gear helps a lot and you are far less likely to die than on the street because of the safety of the environment but a high side is still very likely to break a lot of 50 year-old bones. I don't think track days are the solution for me. I'd rather recalibrate and find a better pace.

 

[HotRodZilla]

Honestly, get a dirt bike. You'll appreciate your FJR, but the thrill on dirt will be hard pressed for a match.

Hell, get a mountain bike. Coming down a hill at speed will definately get your attention. Using the hospital or your crash speed as your limit indicator is a bad idea.

 

[DezzertRider]

TLRJust relax, be smooth, find yer "flow" 'n the pace will come.

Remember; slow into a corner and fast out is better than fast into a corner dead out! These are werds I live by whilst sport touring on unfamiliar roads.

BanjoBoy, although your avatar is a little disturbing, that is good advice about slow in and fast out.

 

[Bearly Flying]

Keep Your butt in the seat, don't worry about "Hanging Off", that's for Racer Boy's.

Practice smooth transtions, the FJR has plenty of torque, go in slow and roll on slowly, You don't have to have your elbow on the pavement on every turn.

If You are pushing that hard on the Street to make a corner, YOU are going to DIE......

The FJR is NOT a Racebike and should not be treated as such.

If YOU don't feel comfortable, back off and enjoy the ride....

Nobody is ever going to critize you for showing up ALIVE.....

 

[Uncle Hud]

A smaller-sized bike will not reduce your risk at all, and probably not reduce your speed much. It's only your brain, heart, or conscience that will keep you within your limits.

 

[Big Sky]

The OP seems to be wondering where he will find his limits, and even wonders if he will find it in a hospital. Wow. I explained where I find mine: the pavement feelers (increasingly less often). These - and fold-up foot pegs - are there for a reason. They are telling you that you are approaching the lean limit of this machine. Keep pushing it and you'll be dragging stuff that doesn't give, will lose traction out back and...here comes the ambulance. I have also noticed that when feelers start to touch down, the chicken strips are nearly gone. Further lean would mean an increasingly smaller contact patch and less traction. It is foolish, IMHO, to go beyond that. If you are not touching anything down, you still have some margin. But enough for a sudden correction or evasion or a big dip at the apex? You don't have to find your limits with a crash. The bike will tell you.

I'm also curious about this statement: "And I certainly wouldn't drag my precious wife across the country and risk her health on our wonderful rides." My wife is pissed if she doesn't get to go along. There is no "dragging" her anywhere. She loves motorcycling! She understands the risks and willingly participates. She also trusts me, perhaps more than she should, to keep both of us safe (so far, so good - knocking on wood). She says we are a team on the bike and it is true. Is your spouse missing out on a lot of pleasure? Pleasure that you can share and use to bond even more?

 

[Goodman4]

the pavement feelers (increasingly less often). These - and fold-up foot pegs - are there for a reason.

Thanks for the comments Big Sky. I happened to notice that your book was still on my nightstand this morning.

I have never scraped a peg at over 20 mph except that track day and that was when I wasn't shifting enough weight. Maybe you and the other riders need to consider the possibility that I still suck and am riding too slow!

I don't think I'm all that slow, but I think my pace is below what you and lots of others here experience on a fun day of riding. I have said all along that I'm very conservative even though I have the need to feel the curves. The point is that I want to ride better, but as I get better I ride faster and don't want to take unneeded risk. I always count the cost and think about potential scenarios and then go ahead. It's just the way I'm wired. That's the thing about "dragging the wife". I don't really drag her, because she enjoys the trip once we get going, but I certainly spend time thinking about risk beforehand. Probably too much.

So I'll summarize my takeaways from this thread:

- smoothness is the name of the game - aim for no braking before the turn

- find a healthy balance between constant manageable speed and slow in, fast out (but not too fast out or I'll be braking again)

- look through the turn to never outride visibility - if I don't have time to stop for something in the road, I'm too fast

- because I care about being around for family I should recalibrate to 10% less lean than I might otherwise want to

- if I ever touch peg feelers, I'm way too fast, especially for me.

- relax, and don't overthink the process

- I'm not going to get a different bike even though I might want to

- I'm not going to do more track days even though I really want to

- most people don't think about this crap as much as I do

I'm going to Arkansas so I'm not thinking about it anymore.

 

[wil780]

I've read many threads like this over the years, and the technique I use to govern my speed is almost never mentioned. Maybe it's too obvious to be worth saying, or maybe I'm unusual. Anyways, when I ride the twisties it's like I have two people in my brain. One is pushing hard and enjoying the ride, while the other is sitting back and evaluating how I'm doing. If I make small mistakes occasionally - turning in a bike length or two too soon or late for the ideal line, running a foot off the ideal line - the second guy is content to ride along. If I make small mistakes every third or fouth corner, or if I make a bigger mistake - say, two feet off the ideal line, or having to brake hard or make a major line correction mid-turn because I misjudged the corner - it's time for the two to have a chat and decide whether to slow down, concentrate harder, or both.

I also have different ideas about the ideal twisty ride. I like to leave enough in reserve to brake moderately hard in mid-corner if the unexpected happens. So if I touch down a footpeg feeler it's a big mistake, because I think there's not enough traction left on most surfaces to brake hard. On the other hand, I like to enter corners 10 - 15 mph over the target apex speed and gently trail brake down to the apex. It's fun, challenging and is a lot more involving than just cruising into the corner at the speed I want at the apex. Since I'm not using up more than 70% of the available traction braking and turning, I think it's safe enough for me. (I've been riding for 51 years, including a couple seasons of production roadracing when I was a lot younger, and I've never crashed on the street.)

Finally, I really don't understand older riders who say they can't ride as well as when they were younger. At 67, I find myself running the same speeds I did 40 years ago, using the speed governing technique described above. (That's based on the assumption that the advisory speeds posted for corners are set the same way they were set back then.)

 

[RossKean]

If you are running the same speeds as you did 40 years ago, then you are slowing down! Tires, bike geometry, engines, frame stiffness and brakes have come a LONG way in four decades. If you had today's equipment back then, I would suggest that you would have been going a lot faster.

That said, I'm not particularly fast and started riding too late in life to ever develop the reflexes to be truly fast.

 

[glory racing]

If you are not scraping pegs you are riding to damn slow to be on an FJR. Get yourself a cruiser and enjoy.

 

[RossKean]

If you are not scraping pegs you are riding to damn slow to be on an FJR. Get yourself a cruiser and enjoy.

Really?

 

[glory racing]

Well yeah. FJR's are sport touring machines designed to handle and 'ride'. Ride it!

Or you could ride in a parade with some Harley's.

 

[Sharif]

I'm not a peg scraper, and I thoroughly enjoy my FJR. Different strokes for different folks. I push my 911 around on race tracks, but am self-aware enough to know I don't have close to that level of skill on 2 wheels. A trackday school is on the to do list, but as has been written about above, arriving alive is my primary concern.

I do like to "get my lean on," but I'm not dragging hard parts. I do find that my degree of lean tends to go up the farther south I ride. GA has gorgeous, mostly debris-free roads. Northern short of Lake Superior? Not so much.

 

[Uncle Hud]

I am also not a peg scraper and thoroughly enjoy my FJR. You ride your ride; I'll ride mine.

That's the message to the OP. "Don't ride so fast that you are unsafe, or fast enough to make you feel uncomfortable."

If it isn't fun, then there's something that should be interpreted from that feeling .....