Turned 100k

[Inlaw1]

I really think you need to tear that engine down for diagnosis. If it was the addition of the aftermarket parts I'd want to know in order to avoid future problems. If not, then was it an oil failure? Component failure?

I'd also venture a guess to a burnt valve. My S.O.'s car, a Mitsubishi 4 cylinder, recently did the same thing. Went from running fine to a dead miss with 0 compression. It had a chunk out of one of the valves.

I'm sure we'd all like to know what happened for reference.

 

[petey]

Hmm.... They are typically not very forgiving of beging run hard with a fuel injection calibration that is slightly off. And if it was "tuned" on a dyno for max output then it is even more scary because what makes nice dyno numbers is typically too lean for day to day operation and hammering on it repeatedly....or running for periods of continous WOT.

03silverbullet and I seperated from the "Big Dog" group ride at WFO and returned to Reno at a, lets just say

at a little more than the posted SL. It was a lot of fun riding with silverbullet, and let me tell you, he and the bike ran VERY WELL. :yahoo:

Sorry to hear about the trouble, hope you get it back on the road soon. A teardown would be very interesting, to see what realy happend. <_<

 

[03silverbullet]

Hmm....hate to say this this way but something seems odd about running fine all those miles and then putting on a pipe and PCIII and hitting the dyno and a subsequent failure.

Sounds like there might be a lean spot in the PCIII calibration that may have caused burnt valves...???...or even a holed piston. I would suspect a burnt valve rather than a piston/ring problem but never say never.

That is one of the problems with doing tuning work on a high specific output engine like the FJR has. They are typically not very forgiving of beging run hard with a fuel injection calibration that is slightly off. And if it was "tuned" on a dyno for max output then it is even more scary because what makes nice dyno numbers is typically too lean for day to day operation and hammering on it repeatedly....or running for periods of continous WOT. Easy to burn a valve due to high exhaust temps and/or get into detonation from too lean a mixture and/or induce preignition via plugs that are too hot for the (now) too lean A/F ratio and/or get into detonation induced preignition from leaness under heavy load.

I suspect that there is a correlation between the pipe/PCIII/dyno tuning and the loss of compession and high leak down rates.

I think Jestal hit the nail on the head.

At about 93k miles I had Montclair Yamaha check the valves and put in a new Cam Chain Tentioner.

The valves still didn't need adjusting, but when I got the bike back home it was running real bad.

I bring it back to the shop and they can't find anything wrong with it. So I bring it back to Lou at L&L motorsports to see if it was the PC, it wasn't but he did LEAN it out to make it run better.

I bring it back to the dealer and after a big hassel, they agree to check the cam timing and sure enough it was off. They adjusted it and the bike ran fine.

I never brought the bike back to L&L to have the PC retuned.

My fault.

Live and learn.

03silverbullet and I seperated from the "Big Dog" group ride at WFO and returned to Reno at a, lets just say

at a little more than the posted SL. It was a lot of fun riding with silverbullet, and let me tell you, he and the bike ran VERY WELL. :yahoo:

Sorry to hear about the trouble, hope you get it back on the road soon. A teardown would be very interesting, to see what realy happend. <_<

It was great riding with you too.

Hope to see you at the next WFO.

 

[Toecutter]

Bummer, but a good lesson for the rest of us. Important- Check map mixture after any motor work if running a PCIII. Sorry about your misfortune, and thanks for sharing.

So, are you going to end up with the first FJR1400? You'd only have to go to 1350.6 cc to claim it. Or maybe just a valve job?

 

[Cruzintexas]

Hmm....hate to say this this way but something seems odd about running fine all those miles and then putting on a pipe and PCIII and hitting the dyno and a subsequent failure.

Sounds like there might be a lean spot in the PCIII calibration that may have caused burnt valves...???...or even a holed piston. I would suspect a burnt valve rather than a piston/ring problem but never say never.

That is one of the problems with doing tuning work on a high specific output engine like the FJR has. They are typically not very forgiving of beging run hard with a fuel injection calibration that is slightly off. And if it was "tuned" on a dyno for max output then it is even more scary because what makes nice dyno numbers is typically too lean for day to day operation and hammering on it repeatedly....or running for periods of continous WOT. Easy to burn a valve due to high exhaust temps and/or get into detonation from too lean a mixture and/or induce preignition via plugs that are too hot for the (now) too lean A/F ratio and/or get into detonation induced preignition from leaness under heavy load.

I suspect that there is a correlation between the pipe/PCIII/dyno tuning and the loss of compession and high leak down rates.

I think Jestal hit the nail on the head.

At about 93k miles I had Montclair Yamaha check the valves and put in a new Cam Chain Tentioner.

The valves still didn't need adjusting, but when I got the bike back home it was running real bad.

I bring it back to the shop and they can't find anything wrong with it. So I bring it back to Lou at L&L motorsports to see if it was the PC, it wasn't but he did LEAN it out to make it run better.

I bring it back to the dealer and after a big hassel, they agree to check the cam timing and sure enough it was off. They adjusted it and the bike ran fine.

I never brought the bike back to L&L to have the PC retuned.

My fault.

Live and learn.

03silverbullet and I seperated from the "Big Dog" group ride at WFO and returned to Reno at a, lets just say

at a little more than the posted SL. It was a lot of fun riding with silverbullet, and let me tell you, he and the bike ran VERY WELL. :yahoo:

Sorry to hear about the trouble, hope you get it back on the road soon. A teardown would be very interesting, to see what realy happend. <_<

It was great riding with you too.

Hope to see you at the next WFO.

Can you say stock!!!!

 

[rangerray]

Hmm....hate to say this this way but something seems odd about running fine all those miles and then putting on a pipe and PCIII and hitting the dyno and a subsequent failure.
Sounds like there might be a lean spot in the PCIII calibration that may have caused burnt valves...???...or even a holed piston. I would suspect a burnt valve rather than a piston/ring problem but never say never.

That is one of the problems with doing tuning work on a high specific output engine like the FJR has. They are typically not very forgiving of beging run hard with a fuel injection calibration that is slightly off. And if it was "tuned" on a dyno for max output then it is even more scary because what makes nice dyno numbers is typically too lean for day to day operation and hammering on it repeatedly....or running for periods of continous WOT. Easy to burn a valve due to high exhaust temps and/or get into detonation from too lean a mixture and/or induce preignition via plugs that are too hot for the (now) too lean A/F ratio and/or get into detonation induced preignition from leaness under heavy load.

I suspect that there is a correlation between the pipe/PCIII/dyno tuning and the loss of compession and high leak down rates.

You make a good argument for leaving the bike in it's stock set-up which I've always thought was a good thing to do. And, I do believe this type of problem would be covered under the YES warranty.

Scott

Senatobia, MS

 

[FJRMGM]

--> "And, I do believe this type of problem would be covered under the YES warranty".

100k miles and covered under warranty - what planet are you from?

 

[git-r-dan]

--> "And, I do believe this type of problem would be covered under the YES warranty".
100k miles and covered under warranty - what planet are you from?

Yamaha Extended Service (Y.E.S.)

" ...

* ...

* ...

* Y.E.S. is designed and administered by the same Yamaha people who handle your warranty - and it shows in the comprehensive coverage benefits. There are no mileage limitations. Coverage isn't limited to "moving parts" or the drive train" like many other plans. And, ..."

Read it (back of the owner's manual). Pretty awesome.

 

[mdisher]

--> "And, I do believe this type of problem would be covered under the YES warranty".
100k miles and covered under warranty - what planet are you from?

Since it appears the the PCIII with the lean map may have caused it and/or their technician who set the timing up wrong. Maybe not. Which came first the chicken or the egg?

But the YES warranty is an unlimited mileage warranty. Had the PCIII not been involved and a Yamaha Tech dorked up my bike you better believe I'd be screaming for the repair under YES.

It's all moot though since apparently he didn't have it right?

 

[jestal]

At about 93k miles I had Montclair Yamaha check the valves and put in a new Cam Chain Tentioner.The valves still didn't need adjusting, but when I got the bike back home it was running real bad.

I bring it back to the shop and they can't find anything wrong with it. So I bring it back to Lou at L&L motorsports to see if it was the PC, it wasn't but he did LEAN it out to make it run better.

I bring it back to the dealer and after a big hassel, they agree to check the cam timing and sure enough it was off. They adjusted it and the bike ran fine.

I never brought the bike back to L&L to have the PC retuned.

This falls under the heading of ".....now for the rest of the story...." Somehow I suspected that there might be more to this than just a sudden failure.

Yow.....I guess you did hit the nail on the head. If the fuel map was modified to get the motor to run right with the cam timing off (by as much as one tooth!!??) and the tech specifically said they had to lean it to make it right then it had to be WAY WAY off when the cam timing was put back right. I think you pinpointed what happened. Look for burnt valves if not a hole in a piston.

Can you post a picture of the spark plugs that came out of it? Sometimes that can give a clue unless you have it apart already and know the verdict.

That is one of the "problems" with a speed density fuel injection system like on the FJR. It is totally dependent on the fueling map being correct for the volumetric efficiency of the engine. ANYTHING that changes the volumetric efficiency at all will affect the fueling map. The system has no means of correcting or compensating for changes at all, unlike a mass flow system that can account partially for changes in air flow and volumetric efficiency. I'm surprised that the person that did the PCIII tuning that required that much leaning didn't raise some questions instead of just changing it. In any case, if it was running poorly, the thing to do is to find/fix the problem, not modify something else to compensate. Nice to know in hindsight, huh....LOL. No LOL.

Maybe the shop that screwed up the cam timing that instigated the whole chain of events will at least give you some consideration for parts/labor...??? The point to approach them on might be why they had the cams out to check the valve lash since it supposedly did not need any adjustment...?? If it didn't need shims changed, why were the cams out. They couldn't have screwed up the cam timing unless the cams were out. I did not think that the cams have to come out to replace the timing chain guide but maybe that is why they had them out. In any case, I doubt seriously that this could ever be construed as a "warranty" claim under anybodies judgement considering the tuning on the PCIII that went on in the interim.

 

[huron52]

I find it interesting that the cam chain went out of adjustment because I was standing right beside my bike when the cam chain tentioner was changed and it is a no brainer. Just unbolt and bolt the new one in.

My thoughts.....

They must have been moving the cam chain around as they where checking valves without the CCT in.

Is that what could have got the cam chain out a tooth or two?

 

[03silverbullet]

I find it interesting that the cam chain went out of adjustment because I was standing right beside my bike when the cam chain tentioner was changed and it is a no brainer. Just unbolt and bolt the new one in.
My thoughts.....

They must have been moving the cam chain around as they where checking valves without the CCT in.

Is that what could have got the cam chain out a tooth or two?

I am sure thats what happened

Bummer, but a good lesson for the rest of us. Important- Check map mixture after any motor work if running a PCIII. Sorry about your misfortune, and thanks for sharing.
So, are you going to end up with the first FJR1400? You'd only have to go to 1350.6 cc to claim it. Or maybe just a valve job?

I bought a used engine with 2000 miles on it for $1000.00.

It should be done this week.

I figured this would be the most economical way to get it going again.

 

[Constant Mesh]

Don't think YES will cover loss of compression if it's due to worn piston rings.

Specific Exclusions

20. This YES contract does not cover repair or replacement of pistons and/or rings to improve engine compression when a mechanical breakdown has not occurred. Loss of engine compression is normal wear and tear.

 

[Inlaw1]

Don't think YES will cover loss of compression if it's due to worn piston rings.
Specific Exclusions

20. This YES contract does not cover repair or replacement of pistons and/or rings to improve engine compression when a mechanical breakdown has not occurred. Loss of engine compression is normal wear and tear.

Well, that blows. Part of the reason for buying the warranty was to protect myself from major repairs in case the Yamaha was incapable of going 100k +.

In the case of using the PC and re-mapping, the YES contract would probably not of covered any engine damage. If you read it closely it pretty much negates any warranty work if you have modified the bike.

13. Damage due to alteration, modification or use of the covered vehicle not recommended by YAMAHA. (I'm pretty sure Yamaha doesn't recommend a PC on their bikes)

14. Damage due to failure of "non-stock" or modified parts.

Sorry about the damage to your bike, some lessons come harder than others. This will help the rest of us in the future though. Glad you found another engine, low mileage, at what appears to be a decent price.

 

[dcarver]

I agree with 03SB... a 2,000 mile engine with all them fresh parts.. clutch, tranny, gear dogs, top end, rings... blah blah blah.. Swap n' Go 03SB... good choice. To recoup some of that 1k spent, offer the old motor up to the gearheads.. at an auction.. you might get a coupla skins... because them g'heads just gotta know what went wrong.. and if you wait, make it drama, maybe even 4 skins!

BTW - Jestal and fellow gearheads, you ROCK. This forum would not be the same without you. I thought I knew my sh#% pretty good but you make me feel like a rank apprentice....

 

[Oldwin1]

That motor definitely needs to be autopsied. It had to be a valve though. It would also be fun to build an FJR and find out how much more can be gotten from one. I can't believe no one has built one up yet.

 

[Fred W]

I had Mickey at Mickey Cohen Motorsports in Placentia, Ca. do a leak down test and the results aren't good.cylinder no. 1- 115lbs with 29% leak down.

cylinder no. 2- 113lbs with 50% leak down

cylinder no. 3- 0lbs with 100% leak down

cylinder no. 4- 50lbs with 85% leak down

Instead of trying to rebuild this engine, I bought a used one at Rancho Motorcycle Dismantler for $1000.00

They said it only has 2000 miles on it. I think they have had it for a while because about 18 mo. ago I had a ignition switch go bad and I bought it there.

Its funny, everytime I need a part for one of my bikes, they always had it.

I don't know what made the engine go bad so quickly. In july I had the Muzzy pipe and Power Commander installed and the bike made good power. (Check out the dyno chart at the muzzy pipe sucks thread)

I sure hope I don't get a ticker!

Thanks to you all for your help.

Well, it's probably too late at this point, But with 100% leakdown, I would expect that a valve is stuck open, especially if this happened rapidly as it did. When was the last valve clearance check done on that engine?

 

[CherokeeKid]

I find it interesting that the cam chain went out of adjustment because I was standing right beside my bike when the cam chain tentioner was changed and it is a no brainer. Just unbolt and bolt the new one in.
My thoughts.....

They must have been moving the cam chain around as they where checking valves without the CCT in.

Is that what could have got the cam chain out a tooth or two?

Huron52 is right-on. When I did my head overhaul of course I had to time the cams. As I noted in my write-up on page 20:

"My final step was to install the cams with the timing chain and crankshaft in proper orientation. This was somewhat challenging, but following the service manual and the timing marks on the crank and cams, I got it done.

My last note that deviates from the service manual is when to install the chain tensioner. Of course you install the cams without the tensioner installed to give the timing chain enough slack to position the cam gears in relation to the chain. But once you have the cams installed with all the timing marks aligned, do not turn the crankshaft until after you install the chain tensioner and released the spring tension. If you do, the chain will jump a tooth or more on the crankshaft and you timing will be out the window. The book says to turn the crank several times to insure you timing is correct, then it says to install the tensioner. That will not work in my experience."

The cam chain on my bike with only 15K miles had a lot of slack and I am sure if the motor has nearly 100K miles the chain would be stretched even more. Just removing the Cam Chain Tensioner(CCT) could allow the chain to jump a tooth on the crankshaft sprocket. My advice is to inspect all the timing marks any time you remove and replace the CCT. This final inspection should be done after you have rotated the engine through top dead center at least once with the CCT installed.

Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

[Toecutter]

I bought a used engine with 2000 miles on it for $1000.00.It should be done this week.

I figured this would be the most economical way to get it going again.

I sure hope it doesn't end up being a, er, well, you know....That would suck big time.

 

[throttlejockeyTJ]

First Off, Anyone whom knows TurboDave, would know he meant what he said on the loan of a MC.

My wifes Honda fine one day, the next it sounded like it lost the timing chain. Nope, it no longer had enough compression to start. That baffled me.

Sorry about your motor, now that you know the causes, we don't have to worry about 100,000